Another thread has prompted me to wonder about the many differences in the way various breeds are judged. In my own breed it is the norm to only inspect the bite and not count teeth, to free stand and not stack, to move on loose lead and not string. The head carriage is adjusted by moving the free hand that may or may not have a titbit in it, not by holding the lead, collar under the ears, tight or by holding the lip of the dog. Feet are rarely looked at and tails are not unfurled or held.

The thing I am wondering about is whether it is the standard that dictates the way we show our breeds or it is because that at one time a dog handled in a certain way has won well that others have started showing in the same way. Think the latter applies to the spreading the legs so the exhibit resembles a rocking horse and the stringing up when moving seen so often in use by the well known handlers, sometimes the dogs front feet do not touch the floor. Would simple love to take the group judges place and insist on loose leads and free standing bet that would sort the well presented from the well made.

Although probably not intentional you have made me laugh! :-D.  I only learnt the term 'stacking' yesterday (though I knew what it referred to!) but whilst waiting for the puppy class yesterday, myself and a friend were watching other classes and having a quiet giggle at the handlers that were making such a big deal of where their six month old dogs legs were positioned (personally I would have been grateful just to get Millie to stand up, let alone worry about how her legs were!), and we were doing impressions of the poor dogs with their legs being flung out (obviously from a well hidden position behind our 4x4! ;)).  I thought we were alone (as obvious amateurs) in finding it a bit extreme and unnecessary but am glad to see that even those of you that are 'show pros' are inclined to agree!  But anyway, it was your term rocking horse that just cracked me up - that's so right, that's exactly what they look like! :-D

(apologies to all members who take stacking seriously :-()

We were more concerned for the well-being of the handlers at the last show we visited. They were showing Weimeraners and appeared to be doing the splits when the dogs were standing, but with one leg bent, if you see what I mean. A most bizarre sight! :) :) :)
Cathy.

You only have to look in the dog press to see photos, no doubt the owners are happy with, and you will see dogs with their legs in un-natural positions. The head so arranged that the only thing the dog can see is the sky the nostrils being the highest point of the dog. This pushes the neck back into the shoulders and changes the dogs conformation, goodness knows how the judges of some breeds manage to come to a decision as the opportunity to see a dog standing and moving in a natural manner would seem to be impossible.

I judge BCs GSDs & Beardies. sadly long gone are the days of dogs being shown free standing They are being stacked more & more-not when I judge mind you ;) I even make them move more than most judges not for me a once round, triangle & up & down I've been accused of treating BC's & Beardies are working dogs not show dogs LOL

hi jessthepest, I hope you was not doing impressions of my shiddies yesterday !!!!!!!!!!!
                           LOL

If only I knew what a shiddie was!

hi jessthepest, it's a shih tzu.

I did a Google search to find out ;-) Funnily enough, the top result (and the only one with the answer) was a Champdogs forum message, hee hee! 

Anyway, I don't remember seeing any shih tzu's where I was so it definately wasn't you!  It was mainly mastiff type thingies.  I'm not very good with dog breeds lol.  Learning every day!

hi jessthepest, was that you at danson park with a scottie pup in the puppy class and she nearly tripped you up , me and my friend were the under the tree with the cages on the trolleys my dog got 2nd in non-sporting and my pup came 3rd in best puppy.

Ha Ha Whoops!!!!

Yep, it was Danson Park!  How embarrasing, there was a Shiddie that came 3rd in the class we were in and there's me saying I didn't notice any the whole day!! I'm so sorry!!

Oh no, how embarrasing to realise that someone from here actually saw me making a complete fool of myself!!!  May I now refer you to my other thread on this board which explains how not only had I not put Millie in a show before, but I hadn't even been to one myself so I didn't have a clue and then please forgive me for letting my dog trip me up, and for thinking 'sod it' when she was running on the wrong side, and for all her other faux pas like stopping to eat in the middle of her run lol!!

Oh the shame, I am mortified now!

Oh and what a shame I didn't know you were going there, we could have had a Champdogs Hello Moment!!

LOL I can't get over how ashamed I feel!  In my defence, I couldn't tell you any of the dogs in the six that got placed in Best Puppy, I don't even know who came first, I was just so embarrased to be there with them doing everything wrong, and so embarrased to be the only one of the 7 that had to walk out with nothing, that I fled the ring with hands shaking like a leaf and we beat a hasty retreat back to the car and went home!  I am so, so, sorry that I didn't notice you, and well done for coming third! :-)

We've all been there!!  That kind of day is not too far in my past either.  I hope it doesn't keep you from showing again.  I promise it DOES get better.

Wendy

showing styles can change over the years too - when I first started showing my Belgians they were all presented on a loose lead standing four square in front of the handler and sideways onto the judge and generally being baited'

Now they are mostly shown head on to the judge at the end of the lead and trained to look for their owner/kennel companion outside the ring. Bait is now rarely used but small toys/other objects are sometimes thrown out of the ring to catch the dogs attention.

this is because head and expression have become paramount as well as the 'Belgian sparkle' which is almost impossible to achieve using the old method of showing.

Have other breeds also had big changes in the way they are shown ?

Yvonne

Purists never baited Flatcoats and always free stood them. Nowadays stacking seems more and more the order of the day.

Regards, John

John is right, flatcoats were never stacked their legs and feet never placed but in the last few years this has now become the norm. They should be shown standing naturally on a loose lead, when standing and when on the move again a loose lead. However this does not get them noticed like the other retriever breeds, which is one reason I think it has crept in.
Read Flowers who taught me how to assess the breed said when judging if I saw a stacked flatcoat I should either touch the lead or ask the handler to move a half step forward, so the dog then moved into a natural stand. I have always followed this advice. The late Paddy Petch would never allow bait in the ring, and insisted dogs be free standing. I don't like to see stacked dogs with their legs spread out behind them, to me it spoils the lovely elegant shape of a flatcoat. I think it makes the topline look as though it is not level but sloping down towards the tail in some dogs.

It's still loose leads and free-standing with dalmatians, and long may it last!

Im sure alot of the handling techniques have come from the states.  I showed Afghans about 12 years ago and they were shown free standing (well occasionally their feet were adjusted but they were basically freestood) they were moved on a loose lead too.  It was also a sin to trim any part of the dog   Now when you look at them they are very americanised -  strung up like terriers, their tails held right up when they are stood and the feet and tails are so blatantly trimmed it is unbelivable :rolleyes:  Im sure this style has come from the states as alot of gundogs over there are also shown in this way.  Personally I prefer the free standing look.

I hope you are wrong in USA they stack labs god forbid that happens here

and some of their labs have no neck

They stack our breed too!!!  Must admit bait is needed to keep their attention off the Ground :D

Brainless have noticed at least one handler in our breed is stacking only hope they do not start doing a lot of winning, not that they do not own some nice hounds but because I would hate to see it become the way to show in our breed. I can't reach the ground for a start :D and the whole character of the breed would be lost if they were so disciplined, one needs to see the spark of independence to judge the animal.

There is at leat another who does, but maybe after it received a negative critique as to the efect they may stop it.  Also noticed someone a long time in our breed placing feet and holding the tail.

I was taught that any undue handling of the dog was a no no, and there were several reminders from the commiteees of long ago in several old year books advising exhibitors that this was frowned upon.

As you say you loose that ready to go aler stance when the dog is expecting Mum to so things for them. Hete it hate it. :D  Hope it never takes hold, in the same way as overgrooming as done in US.

You know the idea of not bathing a dog before every show, and leaving it at least 3 or 4 days before a show when you do for coat to regain natural texture seems totally alien to them.  I am sure they must think we take filthy dogs in the ring :D

Are you refering to the handler who stopped after I made comment Barbara, ;) to be honest I did not see how the hound got looking like that I just did not like it. But have not seen it looking that way since.

Bathing, well I only bath if they are dirty, find that in most cases a good groom will clean the coat. Even after a week you can tell the dog that is bathed and the one that is not, well you think you can, but it is difficult to know if the coat is correct or not and it does not recover for ages. Mind you, have been wondering if I should bath the Sod, he has rolled in the ash from the garden bonfire and made the coat look dull, trouble is I am showing him this Sunday and it is a bit to late for that and then again at Windsor and I am not sure if that will be enough time for it to recover. Don't know, talk about never being able to make up my mind, always used to be decisive, I think.

Hi Staffie were too once shown freestanding and on a loose lead, but now :(  tight leads andstacked seems to be the norm.

Although occasionaly you see a Stafford "judging critque" that says "shown nicely freestanding"

So maybe it's what the exhibitours "consider to be the done thing" rather than the judges?

Karen

Oh God don't set me off.

I remember last year at a certain champ. show being sat around the best in show ring, it was one of the most hilarious moments I've ever seen.

I can't say what breed or what the person was wearing because people would know her.  But there was a certain handler, getting on in years with her high healed shoes running around the ring and it looked so funny, especially as it was outside, so you can imagine what she looked like as it's not easy at the best of times running on the grass.  Then there was this bloke stacking his dog and boy what a backside he had (the person not the dog) and my friend and I were in fits of laughter watching all of this going on, but we weren't the only ones, even the breed judges from that day were finding it extremely hard to keep a straight face.

Over the years, I've seen, lets say plumpish, old dears in their shortish skirts bending over stacking the dogs and you were able to see the next days laundry :d

I have to say I freestand my dogs and allow them to move on a loose lead, there are others in the breed who stack them and string them up so their movement is totally different.

If you really want a laugh try a large class of Yorkies. Now there is a strange way to show a dog, but at least it is a traditional English eccentricity. Would love to get and show one just to go against the norm and put mine on the ground, other small dogs manage so why the need for a platform.

I have often wondered that about Yorkies, but have you ever watched in a Toy Group or NSC with Yorkies in it, lots of the other dogs try and jummp up onto the red boxes if they can get near one while the Yorkie is moving?  My Pugs are fascinated by them, and I saw a Lady in the goups a few weeks ago having real touble persuading her pom to stay off the yorkes box, it just kept bouncing up on to it!
bye
Gwen

Think it is in the nature of dogs to take the high ground if they can when there are others dogs around, so I would think that the others in the group ring would see the Yorkie as having an unfair advantage over those on the floor. May be it is because of the very long coats that some of the show Yorkies grow, don't know really. I am dead against show dogs being produced with such exaggerated features, such as over long coats, or other furnishings or conformation that makes them unsuitable for their original purpose. Suppose some of the toys that were designed to be animated ornaments can be forgiven the but under every Yorkie is a terrier trying to get out, and a lot succeed.

LOL Jackie I dont know if you realize that Yorkie coats have to be trimmed otherwise they would have yards of coat When I first started showing I diidn't realize that they had their coats trimmed like the lhasas ;)

I think the boxes go back to the old name of the "Sideboard"terrier that they used to have up here in Yorkshire :D

Yes did know they were trimmed else the dog would be tripping over it. In the pet home the coat is either damaged with the wear and tear of living or it is striped or a bit of each, but, correct me if I am wrong, the show Yorkie has it's hair in crackers to avoid damage to the hair. Not sure how I feel about this, a well bred and presented Yorkie is a sight to behold but to what cost to the dog, can't answer my own question and only someone living with a show dog can.

Dare say the dog on the sideboard is charming, the array of underwear shown in the ring whilst arranging the dog is not ;)

My friend has yorkies & yes she crackers the coats & they wear little cotten jimjams at times. When they retire from the ring she keeps them much shorter & then they look like puppies. They start quite young with the crackers & they seem to cope ok & are quite happy to sit & have the crackers put back in. Not the way I would treat them tho

My mates Lhasas are all in full coat(she has 7)& she grooms at least one fully everyday & the others get a quickie brush through

Must admit I prefer my cavaliers as a quick wash & dry of their ears & white bits after they have been gardening has them looking clean & tidy

In my breed they check the bite and then they assess the rest of the body overall, no part is really ignored as even the feet are checked. But when it comes to standing everyone does it differently, some stack and some freestand. I must admit i think the freestanding looks much better and more proffesional if done properly as it shows any faults and the dog looks more at ease. When it comes to movement some people have a loose lead and some string the dog. It is easier to string a beagle as it prevents them from sniffing but then again they don't naturally have a high head carriage so i am trying to work my two on a looser lead at the moment.

Funny enough I first noticed how strung up some dogs were and still won, when watching a very well known Beagle being shown in the group ring by a very well known handler of the time. It's feet were just brushing the ground and the hound was thrusting from behind, no doubt because it had too. Looked very flashy and did free stand, if on a tight lead, it won, as it had a good few times before.  Wondered at the time, if I had handled a hound of equal quality, if I would have got away with not allowing the judge to see the front movement, bet I would not have. This hound sired a large number of pups and I will say no more.

Have often wondered how a judge can assess a dogs movement when the dogs so strung up its feet barely touch the floor!
Archer

When I first started hanging around the Munster rings, they were positioned and then most only held the dogs head.  Now they are a "top 'n' tail" breed, personally I think a bit more ring presentation has helped the breed.

I do not like the habit of stacking a dog - any breed - with the show lead positioned behind the dogs ears and the dog almost garotted whilst the owner hold the rest of the lead rolled up in their hands above the dogs head.   Neither do I like to see a dog overstretched, throwing it's balance out.

A loose lead around a dogs shoulders and a loose lead running are a far better sight.