what is a hip score and how is it worked out.
How do i know if a puppy has a good hip score and where can i get more information.
Also how do i know my puppy's eyes are ok?
I have paid my deposit and have met both the puppy's parents but find hip and eyes baffling.
Would appreciate some advice.
Thanks Judith

judithm.jones@ntlworld.com

Unless it is an old puppy it won't have been tested so you will need to take a chance based on the test results of the sire and dam. A puppy's eyes can be tested depending on breed from about 12weeks but IN MOST BREEDS people don’t bother until about a year old. Certain breeds must be tested as puppies in order to get a clear for collie eye anomaly. An eye test is a yearly test because some problems can occur at anything up to 10 years old!

Hips are a once in a lifetime test. The hips are ex-rayed then the plates are submitted by the vet to the KC/BVA panel for evaluating. Various aspects of the hip joint are checked for shape and clearance and points are given for departure from the optimum. 0 is perfect and 53 is as bad as it can get. The resultant score is usually written as 3/3 which means each hip has lost 3 marks or slightly less informatively as a single figure 6. What you need to know is the average score for your breed, this is different for each breed. For example, Flatcoated Retrievers Average is 9.1, Labradors is 16 and Golden retrievers are around 20. Ideally both dog and bitch should be no worse than the average although I have known people with a slightly over average bitch mate to a very good dog in an effort to improve things. Obviously a score for a Golden for example of 20 which is made up of a 10/10 would be rather better than the same 20 which was made up of a 0/20. Just to make things even more complicated a hip problem could be inherited but it could be also be an inflicted injury and not an inherited problem at all. The more of the ancestors scores you can see, the easier it is to see a paten in the scores.

Hope this helps a little.
Regards John

Some breeds such as Collies and Dobes can be tested from 4 weeks of age.

It is possible to get a litter tested between 4 weeks and 12 weeks - after this they have to be done individually.

Christine

Tested for what please, not hips. JH

No not hips.Collie puppies are tested for Collie Eye Anomaly from 6 weeks old.Gillian

The collie breeds cannot be passed as clear after about 12 weeks. After that time they can only have what is called a "Go Normal". Goldens should be first tested whilst in the litter for MRD. Breeds which suffer from Glaucoma also need a once in a lifetime test for this.
As you can see, to ask about the tests without telling us the breed means we can only give an approximate answer. It's quite a complicated subject.

Regards, John

John just a thought. My Father has glaucoma. They say that it's hereditary. Why do I have to go for a test every year and dogs are only tested once? Do they think that the dog glaucoma is different? Peter Bedford got an award from Moorfields for his glaucoma work so I "a s s u m e d" it was the same.
PS They're still giving clear certificates to adult Rough Collies which is one of the reasons that we're still in the mire!!
PPS I waved when you went past today to Windlesham. You didn't wave back! :(

As you know, the eye is a bag of fluid. The pressure of the fluid is kept constant by the excess fluid being drained of. In glaucoma the drain has become partially blocked. The optician checks the pressure of the human’s eye to determine the extent of the problem whereas in dogs what we are concerned about is, whether the drain is damaged and it is possible for glaucoma to occur.

Because the gene pool in a dog breed is so much smaller than it is for humans there is so much more possibility of a dog passing it on than a human.

Just out of interest, not all glaucoma is the same. For instance, the glaucoma suffered by white western Europeans is in general a slow developing form which occurs in middle to old age whereas the form affecting coloured Afro Caribbean’s is a very fast acting form which strikes at a much younger age!

Regards, John

PS Sorry about the wave, I will when I pass again in two months time! :)

Thanks for that John. Makes sense. S'always good to learn something new!!

John unfortunately the info for Glaucoma is only relevant in those breeds that show a predisposition. Sadly in my breed there have been some cases of Open Angle Glaucoma, and no predidposition test will identify an animal that is likely to be affected, so the first that anyone knows of a problem, it is usually too late to save the first eye! The latest case was not diagnosed until the dog was 6 years old, and sadly the inheritance situation is still unclear!

Just out of interest, had a visit from a flatcoat friend the other day whose middle-aged bitch was unfortunate enough to have one eye removed because of glaucoma, who had already been tested clear by one leading authority.

The opposite of my well-documented experience with my bitch, who was tested to be susceptible, and susequently proved clear!

Whose authority do you believe in with tests where only one opinion holds sway?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Would the Kennel Club be able to advise on the breed average hip score? Failing that the breed club should be able to advise. For clumbers the average over the past ten years is lower than the average score that the KC are giving out and that would be useful information for a prospective new owner to know.

The figure I quoted for Clumbers 9thM were from about 4 years ago, the latest I have for them. The problem was that so few were tested at the time that two or three very bad scores had made a considerable difference to the average and this is where averages fall down. In Labradors or Goldens where the total tested runs thousands the average is pretty accurate but in small numbers of tested dogs it can be nonsense.

Brainless, I had to check on my info to find about Glaucoma in Elkhounds because I have never even seen one in our testing! I see according to last year you were still on conditions under investigation. Do you know if it has gone onto the full list yet?

Regards, John

It is still schedule 3, as no conclusions re inheritance have been reached, though the cases here 20 years ago centred around 1 dog and some of his offspring and grandchildren. Most of the cases ocurred then.

It seems that it was the first cases in Elkhounds that Peter Bedford developed his surgical technique re drains (the one that he got an award for). Most of the cases were from a dog who developed it, some of his offspring and grandchildren. The puzzling thing was some litters that were closely bred on him lived out their lives with no problems (first 3 generations were looked at regularly for years), this included a dog with him as grandfather by an affected son out of a bitch out of his litter sister (lived to 14), grandson to daughter etc.

We have recently had a case diagnosed after none for years from an outcrossed pedigree with this dog 6 generations back, and we also about 10 to 15 years ago had 2 littermates who were totally unrelated to the other cases. There have been 11 known cases in nearly 20 years. We beleive they are probably the majority, as being such a painful and expensive disease to treat, it is one that breeders are likely to be informed about, not like PRA where a dog going blind in late middle age may just be considered one of those things/old age!

Peter Bedford looked at this disease for us, unfortunately we as a club got nothing from him in writing re conclusions, leading the people with the current dog feeling that the club have been remiss re information! He is to look into it again, and I hope something goes down in ink for future information!

Someone asked about the mean hip score for clumbers - the latest I have was at 10.10.01 when
469 tested, range 0-102, Breed Mean Score -42

Christine

Average over the last ten years is 36.

My point was less about clumbers and their dodgy hips and more about breed clubs perhaps being able to supply more up to date information.

That was all. ;)