Hi, we have two staffy bitches who get on really well and are looking to expand our family. Has anyone successfully kept a number of staffs together - if so how did you go about it? Would we be better having a litter and keeping one or two or buying unrelated pups? We do have enough space to keep them apart when unsupervised and there is always somone around. Also can staffs cope with sleeping in an outside kennel that is well insulated or is heating necessary? Any advice gratefully appreciated!

Poppynurse
I thought you had just had  a litter ?

Lel Poppynurse wasn't happy with the breeder or somerhing & is looking to start breeding

I thought it was the other way around ?

<<I have been emailing the buyer daily trying to resolve this. I really wish she had raised her concerns with me before withdrawing from the purchase and posting comments. >>>

Oh yes what confused me was her earlier post about going into breeding "properly"

Why not just keep a puppy from your litter ?

Thats why i posted my first post - youve totally confused us here Poppynurse- lol  :)

Hello Poppynurse you have confused me too which is not hard ;) however maybe you are posting for someone else.

You must have just let a litter of 7-8 week old Staffie pups go to their new homes. From that you should be able to judge how your bitches got on with the pups?

And NO Staffies don't particulary like kennels they are mainly a housedog. I know some people keep them in kennels however they normally have a few more than 3, or a stud dog. And why would you want to buy in 2 or more pups. Surely you realise how how work Staffie babies are - talk to Lel and a few others and they will tell you. :)

Karen

sorry! I didn't mean to confuse anyone! I have just had a litter and wish we had kept one of the pups!!! We've always loved having Staffs but had just the two because hubbie worked full time - now he's been made redundant and is looking at expanding the family to occupy himself (and the rest of us...) hence me asking for advice!

>>expanding the family to occupy himself <<   with my tin hat firmly on my head , would he not be better finding another job..  ?

What was the purpose of having the litter of puppies and then sell them all? 

Oh Dear !!

I've got 3 Staffs, a bitch and her 2 sons and everyone gets on like a house on fire.  The bitch most certainly rules the roost in terms of the pack hierachy.

If you have 2 established bitches, perhaps consider a dog.  I wouldn't recommend 2 pups at a time, having just been there and done it myself! :-)  The boys are now 10 mths old and it has been very hard work training 2 of them, it's not double trouble, it's quadruple the work with 2 babies - be warned! :-)

At least it proves that it can be done! Do they all live together all the time or do you seperate them at night for example? And would you have two together again? We're prepared to work hard at it!

Hi, well all mine live all together, although admittedly the bitch does tend to join my OH and me at night and leave the boys to sleep downstairs (the pups aren't allowed upstairs) but we have never intentionally seperated them ever.  They will all just snuggle up in the big dog bed all piled on top of each other - doesn't look too comfy to me, but what would I know! :-)

And no, I would not have 2 together again...now that they are older, it is much much easier, but trying to housetrain 2 pups is hell, believe me...so long as you don't mind being on a constant state of alert, 24/7, then fine, but personally I do like a bit of down time!  Then you have to consider the trouble pups can get into in the home, you're just sorting out one thing that a pup is trying to chew, you turn around and the other pup has got hold of something, so you remove that and the other pup is just tucking into something they shouldn't be - oh nightmare! :-)  And apparently, mine were angels as pups and no trouble whatsoever!  So heavens knows what I would have been like if either of them had been into chewing in a big way.

Mind you, they have yet to go through their Kevin stage, so I might yet still be in for big trouble!

And then you will have to train and walk them individually so they learn to be independent and not rely on their pup friend/sibling otherwise you will never be able to separate them as they get older.  They also have to learn to walk together of course, so your entire day will revolve around housetraining, exercising, training, feeding, playing etc etc - oh yes, and your family might like some attention too! ;-)  Plus you must not forget your other dogs too, as they too will need their exercise and attention and training too.

So, yes it is possible, but if you have a choice and don't want to lose your marbles (;-)), just get the one pup and then look at expanding again maybe a few months down the line.

Hi Poppynurse
<<<now he's been made redundant and is looking at expanding the family to occupy himself>>>

what about when he goes back to work - if this is the only reason you are considering another

By the way did you and the buyer come to an agreement - what happened with pup?

Poppynurse,

I appreciate that you took the time to PM me and I am sure you did not mean to confuse, I think you are deadly serious, more is the pity.

However if the last sentence in your PM was meant to be a joke I do not find it funny.

Staffords are a "passion" with me and to be honest if you can even "joke" as you did in your PM you are doing the breed a great dis-justice. And I for one do not consider your last statement to be in the remotest little bit amusing.

Karen

{" you're just sorting out one thing that a pup is trying to chew, you turn around and the other pup has got hold of something, so you remove that and the other pup is just tucking into something they shouldn't be - oh nightmare! "}

LOL! I had to laugh at that because that is just what it's like to raise one Doberman pup. You can't figure how they got into the next thing when you were just putting away the thing they already got and only had your back turned for 3 seconds. You gotta be in good shape. LOL!

Carrie

is looking at expanding the family to occupy himself

Maybe he'll breed more puppies instead of going back to work?

I've just looked up your previous post Poppynurse and I see that my guess was correct!  You want to buy 2 more bitches to breed.  Now I see why you sold all your litter! :(  Ignore the question in my next post!  I know the answer.

What was the sexes of the litter , were they all males?

" I have just had a litter and wish we had kept one of the pups!!!
Can I please ask why you had the litter?  I've never had a litter for any other reason than to plan to keep one!!

Exactly Val

I asked for advice because I am fully aware that although we have kept staffs for years and had the odd litter that does not mean we know enough to go into keeping more dogs and breeding from them if they prove to be worth breeding from. I was hoping for some constructive advice.
My hubbie was hit by a lorry at work last year and although he hoped to be able to return to full-time employment this has proved impossible so he is retiring on medical grounds. Now this gives him the chance to do something he has always wanted to do - focus full-time on staffs.
We love the breed - surely it's not a crime to want to become more involved with them? We would have loved to keep one of our last litter, but we had promised all the pups before the other halfs' company agreed to the medical retirement and we did not want to let the new owners down - that would not have been fair.
And yes our two bitches got on well with the pups, I was thinking more of the future when pups grow up and adults live together.
I do not understand why some posters are so critical, we share a passion for staffs and are looking for advice so we don't jump in blindly - we've read tons of books and have talked to several owners/breeders - isn't that a good thing? And surely a sense of humour is vital! i thought the point of a forum was to share ideas and seek advice, not to have a go at people!

I presume your husband is on benefits so be warned spending more than 16 hours a week looking ater dogs that you breed from can be treated as full time work, which would affect his benefits

The DWP will check the local papers etc & KC registrations & failure to declare the above will probably result in prosecution &/or loss of benefits. Even if the dogs are registered in your name they will expect detailed accounts of money spent etc & time spent as well & they are very strict

Just thought you ought to know

Thanks, that's something I will have to look into. Luckily I'm good at the book keeping side of things so that won't be a problem. OH is still on SSP at present but I'll have a chat with the DWP and see what's what from their point of view.

"We love the breed - surely it's not a crime to want to become more involved with them?"
Of course not Poppynurse, but buying two more bitches and breeding from them is hardly "getting involved" it's producing puppies, not breeding quality staffies!
I'm sorry about your husband's accident but if you really want to get involved in the breed, try going to Championship Dog Shows, where you will see a range of types, temperaments and quality.  You'll mix with other breeders and think of questions that you've never dreamed about!  Maybe from that you can decide from which lines to buy your foundation stock.
Another way to learn more about you chosen breed is to do voluntary work for Staffie Rescue.  You'll soon find out which lines are quality, which breeders produce rubbish etc.  All rescues can do with all the help they can get at the moment and I'm sure that your husband's time would be well appreciated - and the learning for him will be invaluable.
On the other hand, you could buy another two bitches and start producing more puppies!

I am not saying anymore on this thread.

You know what they say
                     "If  you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"

Karen :(

    

Poppynurse
In your post re: the buyer who wanted to pull out of the purchase you mentioned
<<<we just have the odd litter because we love our dogs and love having puppies. >>

I would have to say that is definitely NOT the reason to have a litter just because you like having pups (in my humble opinion)-
also you say your hubby was made redundant - then in another post he left work due to medical reasons .
I think this is why people are somewhat confused by your posts

I have been concerned from the begining about the lack of eye testing. As I understand it, you told a prospective puppy buyer that your breeding stock were clear of problems so you didn't need to have them tested. Nobody can give those sort of assurances, without DNA evidence, and I don't believe there is a DNA test available for the eye diseases that afflict the SBT, is there?

I don't doubt that you enjoy having puppies around the place, but that is not a reason to breed dogs. Are your dogs successful, show dogs,proven to be outstanding specimens of the breed? Have you spent many years learning about the breed from well established successful breeders? Or is it that you have jumped on the bandwagon of producing large quantities of substandard puppies for a lucrative pet/machoman market and the £££££ signs are rolling in your head.
Excuse me if I have it all wrong, but your enquiries about adding more SBTs to your household to give your jobless husband something to do, reek of backyard breeder.

It seems to me you need to go back to square one and start again, and do it the right way. There is no shortcut to experience.

Dawn R.

Gosh I seem to have been confusing folks. My OH was made redundant on medical grounds, hence he now has a disabliity and cannot work. It's not the money we're interested in - I gather that there's little to be made anyway once all the costs are factored in, but the OH now has to occupy his time - what better way than being with the dogs we love.
The eye test issue needs clarifying - I told the purchaser that my bitch had not been tested but I was not aware of any problems in her line (I gave no 100% guarantee). The test is optional according to my vet. The reason that she has not been tested was that I could not find a vet able to do it originally - I have now found one and will be testing from now on.
We do not want to be 'backyard breeders' churning out sub-standard puppies as someone seems to think - we want to breed good quality pups. We may not have tons of experience but everyone has to start somewhere, that's why we're looking for advice. We do go to shows and have our own idea of the 'perfect' Staff. Do you have to show to breed? We genuinely want to do things 'the right way' and will take all your comments on board. We just need some help finding the right way.

I have only just read all the comments on this topic and have to say I am confused myself. No offence inended Poppynurse but before you even thought about breeding from your bitch you should have had her eye tested and also the stud dog as there is a disease called Persistent Hyperplastic Primary Vitreous (PHPV for short) and also Hereditary Cataracts (HC's) which is slowly creeping back inot the SBT gene pool and only RESPONSIBLE breeding will eradicate this problem. Both disease can lead to blindness and even if you bred 400 litters and only one litter of puppies had PHPV or HC's you would always be known as the breeder who breeds blind dogs. You need to remember that mud sticks and if you don't want to get a rep as a backyard breeder then you need to breed for all the right reasons and to improve the breed quality. Neraly all reputable breeders show their dogs as it gives you a good marker as to whether you're dog or bitch has the qualities that the breed standard asks for. Other faults in the SBT that are becoming more of a problem are inverted canines, thin feet, loose shoulders and straight stifles which certainly didn't creep in overnight to the breed. You may not be aware of any faults in your bitches lines as much like a car sales man the breeder won't point out the faults so you need to research her lines a bit more to find out. Even the current CC record holder has got faults and the top winning dogs will have aswell. We have spoke to a few people in the last month who have advertised there dogs as having 'great' pedigrees (even on the KC website) but they never had a copy of the sires pedigree or knew anything about the lines that their own dog came from. Problem is too many people come into the idea of being a 'breeder' without reading up on the subject first or speaking to people in the know. Any dog breeder worth their salt will make time to talk to you about breeding and also point you in the right directionof a litter that has good qaulity behind it as they want the breed to move forward and develop not stagnate or go backwards!

Poppynurse, can I tell you something about vets. They are fine up to a point if your dog is ill, but they know little or nothing about breeding a quality litter of purebred/pedigree puppies. They have no breed specific knowledge at all unless they make it their business to find out about such and such a breed because they have 20 or so on their books.

Never ask a vet to assess the breeding potential of a bitch or dog for that matter, the vet won't know. It is up to you and I the owners and breeders to find out what health problems are present in our breed,what screening schemes are available and from where, and how to assess quality or ask somebody who does know. This is what I mean by 'theres no short cut to experience'. You need to spend years among breed experts and enthusiasts, you need to show your animals and win to be able to measure their good points and bad. So many people rush into the breeding of dogs before doing the neccessary groundwork and that takes time, years. People will be sick of hearing me say this, but in May last year I bred my first litter, after 30 years in dogs. I feel I served my apprenticship. The bitch had won consistently at Championship level (not a Champion though) was Crufts qualified, and won a 3rd place at Crufts when she got there, my mentor is top breeder in the breed and I made a good friend of him.

You can't do too much learning.
Dawn R.

Hi Poppynurse,

I am going to apologise as maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick;

     First you asked >>>>Has anyone successfully kept a number of staffs together - if so how did you go about it?<<<<< How many are you thinking of keeping?

     Then you asked >>>>> Would we be better having a litter and keeping one or two or buying unrelated pups?<<<<<It depend on if you have homes lined up for the other pups. If you bitch is eye tested and clear. If you have a well bred bitch whose faults can be improved upon by breeding. To say but a few, and I would like to say I can't see any breeder letting you have two pups from the same litter. Too hard work.

     You also said>>>>" I have just had a litter and wish we had kept one of the pups!!!<<<, Why have a litter unless you intend to keep one of the pups. Why breed good quality pups if not to keep one?

     You also said>>> The eye test issue needs clarifying - I told the purchaser that my bitch had not been tested but I was not aware of any problems in her line (I gave no 100% guarantee). The test is optional according to my vet. The reason that she has not been tested was that I could not find a vet able to do it originally - I have now found one and will be testing from now on.<<<<< As you show and go to shows then you would realise of course a lot of breed clubs arrange to have Staffords eye tests. And saying it does not run in your line is a little naive as Luxnallsstaffs has already said "mud sticks" and breeding a litter without testing is just adding to the problem. Even if your line is as you said "clear" how do you know about the Stud dogs family. You test before mating so you don't breed from non-clear dogs. But if you have already bred a litter how do you alter this, if your bitch tests positive? Well you can't can you.

I'd suggest if your husband wants to involve himself in Staffs contacting a rescue. and voluntering, they will more than likely rip youy arm off -especially if you could foster - having all that room.

Karen

 

Thanks for the constructive comments - please keep them coming. the point about the vet is very useful, I did seek his advice on both eye tests and having a litter from my bitch - and acted on it, having since done more homework, and heard your comments I now appreciate the value of eye-testing and I will never breed from a bitch again (or use a stud) that is not eye-tested. And I now know where to seek the right info! Unfortunately the breeders (and there are several of them) I have dealt with in the past did not seem to consider them essential - my apologies for my stupidity in not realising the implications of not testing - perhaps it's time the KC made them compulsory?
The reason we did not keep one of our litter was twofold - we had hoped for a brindle and did not get one (the stud was mahogany brindle and the bitch black brindle). (Does anyone know how the colour genetics in SBT work?) Also, and I'm being totally honest here, around the time the pups were three weeks old my OH was told that he would have to be made redundant on medical grounds as he could no longer do his job and I panicked a bit and took deposits on them all which we regretted afterwards. There was one in particular that we would have loved to have kept but I felt it would have been unfair on the family who had chosen that pup if I said they couldn't have it.
From some of your comments it seems that we have been talking to the wrong people until I found this forum, and basing decisions on some dodgy information. Please accept our apologies for being complete prats - we really thought we were doing things right.
We were told that we did not need to show but we have been to quite a few to get an idea of what a 'typey' staff is - but maybe we've been going to the wrong type of show. Given your thoughts we'll be going to ringcraft and later on to open and breed club shows (if the bitches prove worthy - which they should given their looks, temperaments and pedigrees - fingers crossed we're not wearing rose-tinted specs).
I also like the idea of researching my bitches pedigree but how do you go about it?
Please keep the constructive comments coming - they're really making us think.

Val,

My thoughts.

The sad and scary thing that we all forget is that people do this all the time and try to at least hide it, there is a shread of hope that you can educate that person.

When people openly post in public and think that what they are saying and asking is perfectly ok that is when you time will be wasted.

The is enough good staffies going around without adding to them.

What is amazing is contemplating the breeding etc and not even knowing the breed well enough to see if they mix OK etc.

Hi Val

You may not have - but there are valid reasons to do so. Wanting a puppy is one of course but there is nothing wrong with breeding from a quality bitch if you don't want to keep a puppy or indeed can't at present. In fact, for the average small breeder who may only be able to keep a handful of dogs, I can't see how they can establish a breeding line without doing this occasionally.

For example, take the scenario of someone with capacity for only 3 dogs (large breed). They start with a quality bitch and wait until she is 3 years old (having been campaigned and been relatively successful) for her first litter. They keep the pick of bitches and campaign her too - she is better than her mother - they campaign her to her title and she is then bred from - again at about 3. They keep another puppy. They are now up to capacity and their oldest bitch is still only 6. What do they do? Give up breeding until they can keep one (and probably have to start again from scratch as their youngest could well be too old for a first litter by then). Surely better to breed and not keep a puppy but in doing so leave open the possibility of a second litter from the youngest later on - or getting a puppy back at the next generation? And this assumes no existing dogs, all dogs breeding quality, and only bitches are kept - probably unrealistic. Of course you may argue that someone who can only have 3 adult dogs at a time shouldn't breed....?

Of course there is never an excuse for breeding from poor quality. And it goes without saying that all health tests etc. should be done and suitable homes ready. But not everyone who breeds when they *don't* want a puppy is just in it for the money.

Janet

Janet,

<<What do they do? Give up breeding until they can keep one>> yes is that no what most good breeders do.. why breed if you are not keeping?

<<Surely better to breed and not keep a puppy>>  No it is not better to breed if you do not need to.

we are all passionate about our indiviual breed!
not having anything to do with staffies ,i can have a more objective opinion.
poppynurse has come on here for advice,to jump all over her implying allsorts is hardley going to help anybody. she hasnt done anything yet,yet is looking for advice & help.
so yes give opinions on eye tests,examples of how things can go wrong.....
yes give your opinion on "why" to breed a litter....
but dont shoot her down when she tries to explain herself!!!
surely its better to be a help than it is for poppynurse never to come on here again?????& try to go it alone?

Poppynurse,
my friend has two littersisters (not staffies) & they bonded with themselves very strongly,making it hard work! she would not have two pups of the same age again,& defintally not from the same litter!

Hello Poppynurse.

I must say though at first you came across as I read it as a "total prat" and or a possible trainee backyard breeder, and to be honest I would not have given you the time of day :(

BUT...and that is a big but - you want to know and learn, and I can see having had Staffs for many years how you could have got caught up with the "pet breeder" ie they care about their bitch/dog but don't have the knowledge-interest-and to be honest the dog that would be a credit to the breed. The idea is with shows/breeders/enthusiasts to listen a lot and say a little ;)

As you will have gathered I am passionate and defensive about Staffs because in my opinion they are a breed that inspires that sort of devotion.      

If you want to PM me feel free, and I'll do my best to help you trace back your bitches pedigree. :) And if you like trace back the stud dog you used.

Karen 

Hi Kazz, thanks for the offer of help! We could certainly do with it.
We feel our bitches are good quality (whoops here I go again!). Here's some of their pedigree-
Pearldiver Crimson Flash Dance Girl (Tara), parents and grandparents are Pearldiver bitches with sires Brindle Chieftain, Dalestock Red Sunset, G Grandparent on bitches side Ch Bellgiens Rich Desire of Rikamia. Also in there is Ch rendorn drummer Boy of Kazemick, Ch Rendorn Devils Timpani, Am Ch Chainmakers Samsung of Rikamia (twice), Ch Clairwell Lady in red (twice), Ch Bellgiens Rich Desire of Rikamia (again), Ch Duke of Ducks Hill (twice), Ch Teutonic Warrior, Ch Reckless Lass, Ch Bolmore Black sabbath. She is a red and white stocky type, although quite small.
Spices Christmas Cracker (Chrissy) is out of Ada Lucky Lass by Vulcanstaff Blacksmith, Ch Judael Both Barrels at Nozac(both sides), Ch Mary Queen of Staffs at Vulcanstaff, Ch Relim Black Ace, Ch Judael Maggie Noire, Ch Constones Yer man (both sides), Ch Lancstaff Sparbu Saga, Ch Rouge Saga, Ch Spatan Victor, Ch Grange Spitfire etc. She's black brindle and white and more the leggy type with the longer snout.
The sire of the litter I've just had is Skylands Silver Lad - he is the most gorgeous brindle and fits my picture of the ideal staff. And he throws good pups - IMHO.
We're considering mating Tara soon (and this time we'll be keeping one) if she passes her eye-test on Monday and if we can find the right dog - any suggestions on one to compliment her line would be great. tara is really pretty, moves straight and has a lovely stance, her main fault is that she's right at the lower edge of the breed standard. We'll have a better idea of her faults from another perspective when we've been to ringcraft next week, but I've shown her locally a couple of times and she's won on every outing.

You have some very good lines behind Tara and I think you'd be best of keeping the same sort of lines as to what she was bred from. The pool of good qaulity pieds and reds is getting smaller and smaller all the time so you really need to research the dog you are going to use. I have a few who I like but they may not be to your taste or they may fight what you are looking for. If you want to tlak more PM me or email me and I will give you the names and numbers of a few people who would be good for you to talk to.