can i ask if a bitch is in season next to you in a show can you complain?
If you can do you just make a complaint to the owner,
the people who orginized the show,
or do you have to put your money down and make an official complaint?
Carol

There are no rules that say you can't take an in season bitch to a show, BUT it is inconsiderate and selfish to take an in season bitch and put her on the benching. If you must take such a bitch then you should leave her in the car or the car park until the dog judging is complete and then straight into the ring and then back to the car park.

Sorry you can't complain to anyone except the person who owns the bitch, I do know how difficult it is if you have a dog and in fact I have one who I can no longer show at benched shows because he pulled one of the metal panels down on himself trying to get at a bitch on the next bench and will now not get on a bench at all.

this was not a benched show this was an open show in a hall with a wooden floor and the seats for everyone were placed down the side of the village hall and everyone was sitting very close togethere, the bitch was bleeding over the floor and she was very swollen, the gentleman next to us asked themif there bitch was in season oh yes but we are wiping her, he got up and walked away with his dog, i was lucky as i did not have my boy with me just my daughters bitch with us, but if i had my male with us, he would of been frothing at the mouth and doing his best to get to this bitch, i just wondered if anything could be done about it thats all,
Carol

If no one complains to the show organisers or the KC, then they will have no reason to make it a rule that an inseason bitch should not be taken to a show.  I think more people should complain about it - and I only own a bitch.

Fiona

That was incredibly stupid, it could well have caused a fight to say nothing of being gross and unfair, the best you could do would be to ask the society secretary to ask them to take the bitch outside until she was due in the ring. IMO there can be no reason to show a bitch like that at an open show, there are a few reasons why you would do so at a championship show, including the cost but at an open show it is crass.

I never take in season bitches to ANY shows, I think it's totally inconsiderate and I must admit I get really annoyed when I see an in season bitch at a show.  I've only been showing a male for the last 8 months and even before then i didn't agree with it.  I've even told friends in my breed that I would not be happy if they took their in season girls to a show.

do you think it would be worth contacting the kc and asking about how you go about getting new rules added to the existing ones about not letting bitches into the shows that where in season or would they not be bothered would it take a lot of people to contact the kc and make them think about it?
I do understand that sometimes a bitch will come into season at a show when you where not expecting it, but when it is bleeding full blow and swollen, must admit you could tell on a rottie.
Carol

As an alternative point of view, we usually continue to show our puppies through their first season and on several occasions have had Best Puppy at three consecutive shows whilst in season.

The first season is usually very light with a minimal amount of swelling of the vulva. We only enter in single-sex classes and keep the bitch away from the ring until it is her class. Obviously there is little or no discharge, it would not be feasible to show a bitch that was showing a lot of colour.

We have never had any males show any attention to the puppy, if they did we would not take them.

We would never take an in season bitch to a show during their second and subsequent seasons, because these are usually much heavier with more pronounced swelling.

There are enough rules already in place and if an in-season bitch is causing you a problem, address the owner directly. As things stand at the moment, it is not an offence and providing people are sensitive to other owners dogs there should not be a problem.

snomaes

Funny males you have, mine would know from at least 3 weeks before.

Mine also know 3 weeks before and so do all of my friends dogs no matter what the breed!!  All my first time bitches have had proper seasons.  Not getting at anybody but this is the main thing that annoys me, it may be single sex classes but very often males from other breeds go in the same ring afterwards and you try and get their head up once a bitch has been on that ground.

I'm sorry but for 3 weeks in a year surely it's not that hard to keep them away from a show. 

To say nothing of the dog that has to use the bench next. It is not just the dogs either, bitches are disturbed by it too and unless the bitch has had a good bath they continue to be bothered by bitches that have just finnished.

yuk

In some breeds it seems quite the norm to take in season bitches to Championship shows and is done quite openly. 

The breed that I am aquainted with usually has a ring for dogs and bitches at Championship shows, but it has CCs at most shows, unlike our own which has a limited number, so I really don't see the urgency to take them. 

Thing is if some breeds do it then it is useless your own breed always being good about it, as there are bound to be in season bitches at any given show on any given day.

The breed I am thinking of is a large powerful working breed, and it must be murder keeping trhe males in hand, and from getting too competitive withother males.

I hae heard that it is normal in Toy breeds also as they are kept caged most of the time so easy just to get them out to go in the ring and put them back in their cage.

There really ought to be a rule one way or another, as those who forgo an important show when their own bitch is in season out of consideration for others arrive only to find that others are happy not to be so.

Unless it is an Obedience show, there is no rule to prevent in season bitches being shown.

you can't compete in Working Trials or agility with an in season bitch; you can compete in schutzhund though.

I have a bitch and don't take her to a busy park during her season let alone a show :(

Karen  

Is there really many people who don't consider their Bitches Health while they are in season?  Or don't the mind a bad reputation of taking a swollen, dripping bitch to a show!!!!

Some people will continue to amaze me in how much they will do to win something as small as BOB or BP at open show level!!!

Rox

I would certainly have complained both to the organisers and the owners/handlers of the bitch in question.  It is selfish and thoughtless to take a bitch in season to such occasions. 

When my dog did his Bronze KC Good Citizen test there was a bitch just finishing her season.  She had, of course, been training for this test for months and so the owner did not want to postpone it.  She told the examiner before the test started (she left her dog in the car) and everyone else was asked if they minded before the bitch was allowed to take part (she was also wearing protection!).  That's good manners and common sense.

I do not allow bitches in season to attend my training classes.  One came once and all the other dogs were hyper and distracted, even the other bitches were fractious - one quite nasty yet never was before or since.  No-one benefited from the class at all.  From that day on it has been a 'no no' for me.  Everyone pays for their class and this should not be disrupted because of one bitch in season.

Could I play devils advocate here? There have been comments that dogs know 3 weeks before a bitch is coming into season. I agree - I have had owners grinning at me whilst their dog is allowed to sniff my bitches behind and try to jump on her and I am being told "she'll be in season soon". The same has happened when my in season bitch is nowhere near the show, but I have another bitch (and in one case a puppy dog) with me (presumably carrying a scent from the in season bitch). This is a two-way street - the owners of males should NOT think it is fine for their boy to shove his nose up the behind of every bitch he encounters. This is as offputting for a bitch as an in-season bitch is for a dog, and could put her off other dogs/shows for life. Then we have to consider that a bitch, depending on when she comes in, could miss 3 champ shows that her owner has had to enter weeks and weeks in advance, plus the fact that the owner may have other dogs entered which may have to be pulled out if there is no-one to look after them. Not every bitch comes into season like clockwork. Is it fair that the owner should lose so much money, and is it fair that a bitch should have fewer opportunities to gain her title than a dog? Surely the way forward is for entry fees to be refunded? I dont believe that the large show societies would go bankrupt by doing this, as most are now hiding increased entry fees by charging for car parking instead. I believe (I may be wrong) in America it is accepted practice to show in season bitches as shows are grouped together in certain areas and there are 3 or 4 shows over a weekend to cater for the huge distances travelled. Perhaps if dog owners accepted that in season bitches may be present, everyone would behave a little more thoughtfully.

That maybe ok to you for you may have a male that is not that bolshy when a bitch is in season, your males, may not froth at the mouth pace up and down and be in distress when they can smell a bitch in season,your males may work for you without even wanting to look at the bitch that is swollen and bleeding everywhere, but a lot of males cannot be just picked up and taken away from the situation, this show was held in a scout hall, on a wooden floor and the bitch was standing in this small hall dripping blood all over a wooden floor, blood stains wooden floors and seeps into the flooring, they did not wait for there class they came and sat in the hall, if i had taken my rottie he would of been manic, and yes maybe that would be my fault for not training him to ignore the bitch, but why should i of had to keep my male in the car in hot weather because inconsiderate owners took a bitch to a show that was in full blown season, surley chasing points and pot hunting are not worth it, or maybe she knew that i would be in the same class as her and she knew that my male would be going nuts to mount her bitch .
I do understand that champ shows you pay a lot of money and yes i have missed 2 champ shows due to a bitch in season at home,and i was miffed at it , but that is part and parcel of having a bitch, but to pay 2.00 for an open show surely it would not make that much difference,and i try  to not let my male sniff every dog when we go to a show but that is how a lot of dogs greet each other sniffing, each other, i know how daunting it can be to have a huge dog leap upon another dog to sniff, many owners will apologise if they have been caught off guard by there dog lunging at another and will apologise, i know if my boy does i do apologize and will reprimand him, but yet again those people that don't care what there dog does what can you do, the same as the people that take dogs to shows in season complain to them i suppose, thats what the just of everyone seems to say so next time i am going to say something when a bitch is in season at any show, and sorry if i offend anyone but.......
Carol

suzieque...I know what you mean about at ringcraft...ours was the same and now all people understand that bicthes in season can't come and they are more then happy with that...It causes so much disruption and luckly all the owners either have dogs themselves or they buddys who they meet at ringcraft have Dogs, which means that they wouldn't be able to chat!!!

Rox

I do have a male that is bolshy and a pain when he smells a bitch in season. I am saying that there are no rules to prohibit bitches in season and whilst there arent any, dog owners should be prepared for meeting one. They should also try to prevent their dogs sniffing bitches behinds - its all very well to apologise after the event, but it shouldnt happen and wouldnt if owners kept dogs on a short lead and under control. I have lost count of the number of times my bitch has been "lunged at" by dogs eager to sniff when I have been passing on my way to the ring, while the dogs owner is having a chat and ignoring the dog on a loose long lead - this at very crowded ringsides. I am not saying it is right to have a bitch in season at a show, I am saying that bitches should have as many chances at shows as dogs and that there should be hard and fast rules regarding this. Kennel Club rules apply to open shows as well as Champ shows. As far as dogs being kept under control, should the rule apply to bitches who "will probably come into season soon" as some dogs react just as strongly to them as a bitch at the start of her season? This will never be sorted out on a voluntary basis as some people will take their in season bitches to shows no matter how many complaints are made as the complaint is not a valid one without a rule prohibiting the bitch being shown. Show organisers are powerless to do anything. The fact that mating of dogs at shows is prohibited clearly indicates that the Kennel Club expect in season bitches to be present.   

I've had entire bitches, and I would say I would never contemplate taking a bitch in full season to a show! Apart from it being incredibly bad manners, the risk of infection is much higher. I have had a bitch come into a first season at a show - no sign of swelling or bleeding when we left home; get her out of the car at the show, and there's the first drop of blood! :rolleyes: So what if you miss chances to qualify/get that elusive CC/whatever? Tough! It's the downside of owning a bitch. (I think the upside is that they're much nicer than dogs! Swings and roundabouts!)

I've said this before & I'll say it again now ;-)  What would you dog owners find to blame next, if in season bitches were banned from showing   Training...train your dogs to behave, to show, to perform.

I have only bitches, I only want to go under certain Judges, I have to enter in advance and I do not see why I should not attend the Shows I wish to.  If you cannot control your males, then consider not showing until you can
:-)

One of the bitches I show is 'interesting' to many dogs no matter when, this shows up the Owners problem, the dogs tow them to get to a bitch that isn't in season...hmm training again.

As an extra aside, a number of posts on here seem to be constantly answered by people that don't show, or show very little which rather throws reality out the window, there are of course many who do show a lot answering too. ut as ever anyone can post on these boards and be an instant expert :rolleyes:

I suppose what it boils down to is how much importance each individual puts on 'fair play'. Over-competitive pothunters don't care what reputation they get, not only in their breed, but in others too (word gets around!).
:)

Sarah, training one of my dogs to ignore an in season bitch is, I'm sorry to say, beyond my ability.

I am not asking for in season bitches to be banned from the show ground, only that the owner, if they feel they must bring them, do their best to keep the dam thing off the bench next to me, or if it is an open show wash the ring floor before I attempt to exhibit my dog. A little consideration is not to much to ask surely.

And yes, I do show, and I have shown dogs and bitches and no, I have never ever knowingly taken an in season bitch to a show of any kind and avoid going myself when they are at their peak.

Would like to add that judging an inseason bitch is not very pleasent either, and there is a health risk to the bitch but as that is slight I suppose it does not matter either.

I cant see that there will ever be a KC rule against in season bitches simply because it would be impossible to enforce. Who would check to see if a bitch was in season? Some bitches because of their anatomy look swollen all the time, some bleed like a stuck pig for a full 28 days, some hardly show any signs at all. Would the dog owners be happy to wait whilst all the bitches entering a show were swabbed by a vet at the gate - they would be lucky to get to their benches in time to turn around and come home!
Once again, I do not say its right to take a bitch in full season to a show, but, Hippychick, if you were so put off by this bitch, why did YOU stay - you could have gone home just as easily as the bitch owner.

Hi,
Fillis, I think hippychick is asking what we think.
And as the owner of a bitch I would say, don't knowingly bring in-season bitches to shows. What reason do you have to take an in-season bitch? There are always other shows.
 
Surely in this case the "good of the many, outweighs, the good of the few" However I realise inconsiderate people are everywhere and you cannot change the mind of someone who does not think.
Karen

I have not actually said I would take an in season bitch to a show, but I have pointed out that, in my opinion complaining will do no good as there is no rule and nor can I see there ever being a rule. I would never take an in season bitch to an open show or training class, but I would (as Sarah said) go to a Champ Show if it was a judge I particularly wanted to enter under. I show 4 dogs - why should I give the show society the best part of £100, when including pre paid catalogue and parking, for sitting at home? 

Sorry but I disagree you can reasonably be expected to "know" when your bitch will be in season, in Sal's case 5 month intervals. I would not plan to go on holiday or  enter in a show when she was due in season.
So I would not spend £100+ in the first place. And I know you have not actually said you  woudl take an in season bitch to a show and I do not want to argue.

I don't think it's fair, and this wasn't a CH show but an open show different kettle of fish completely.

Karen
   

Sorry, but have to disagree again - you dont know when your bitch will have her first season or second, it takes about 4 to settle into a pattern and even then can be erratic - my elder bitch had a shortest interval of 7 months and longest of 10 months. Then a litter or the introduction of another bitch to the household throws it out again. 

That's true, not many bitches are that regular, even when they're settled into a regular rhythm. The closest I've ever got was a bitch whose cycle was every 8 months - give or take a fortnight either side. However, if there was a show I wanted to enter, under I judge whose opinion I wanted, then I entered. If it turned out she was in season when the show-date arrived, I just didn't go - it was my hard luck. Just as I would if she was ill, or had been in contact with a sick dog within 21 days of the show (as per regulations).

Why does showing an in season bitch turn into competitive pot hunting?  Surely that is showing full stop :P

Bitches, especially those in packs do not come into season with clockwork regularity :-(

Jackie, I think you do yourself an injustice as a trainer, I am sure you can control your dog in all situations :D

And no, if that is the Judge whose opinion you want, then there isn't another show ;-)

No, 'pot-hunting' is different to 'just showing'. Pothunting is where winning has taken precedence over the other aspects of showing. We've all seen them - the ones who storm out of the ring when if they don't win. The ones who throw their blue rosette away in disgust. The ones who hope they are the only entrant in their class because it means they won't be beaten. The ones who take a dog with Kennel Cough to a show.

Fillis,

"There have been comments that dogs know 3 weeks before a bitch is coming into season. I agree - I have had owners grinning at me whilst their dog is allowed to sniff my bitches behind and try to jump on her and I am being told "she'll be in season soon". The same has happened when my in season bitch is nowhere near the show, but I have another bitch (and in one case a puppy dog) with me (presumably carrying a scent from the in season bitch). This is a two-way street - the owners of males should NOT think it is fine for their boy to shove his nose up the behind of every bitch he encounters. This is as offputting for a bitch as an in-season bitch is for a dog, and could put her off other dogs/shows for life."

Well, I disagree.  I have a spayed bitch and there isn't a male dog that has not wanted to sniff her rear.  And there's a neutered lab near me that constantly tries to mount her.  The difference is that when she was in season (she went through one) it was *impossible* to distract dogs.  Concentration on anything but the bitch in season typically goes out the window.   Which is why it is unreasonable, selfish, and self-centred to take bitches in season to shows.

"I believe (I may be wrong) in America it is accepted practice to show in season bitches as shows are grouped together in certain areas and there are 3 or 4 shows over a weekend to cater for the huge distances travelled. "

You are wrong.  It is totally unacceptable to take a bitch in season to shows in America.  Everyone accepts that they are going to lose some money on entrance fees if they get the timing wrong and the bitch is in season on the show date.  No one likes it, but it's considered part of the expense of showing a bitch.   And, unlike in the U.K., you cannot show a spayed bitch.  I am not saying bitches in season are never shown, but if there is even a suspicion that your bitch is in season and the cause of distracting a dog ... better get to the car park quick and go back home *fast*.

Stacey

Stacey - I stand corrected on the American statement - I did indicate I was not sure about this. HOWEVER do you really think that a bitch, speyed or not even in season, should have to put up with dogs sniffing their behinds and trying to mount them? That is the point I was making - these dogs should not be allowed by their owners to do this, and many owners think it is fine.
Of course all dogs react to bitches in season, but SOME react to ALL bitches, and that can be avoided by the owners control. Why should my bitch not in season, have to run around in circles to avoid some dog trying to mount her while the dogs owner acts as if its perfectly acceptable? I have even been accused of having a viscious dog by one person who would not keep her dog off my bitch even after being asked to (when she WAS NOT IN SEASON) and my bitch went for her dog. This, I would add was in a mixed sex, AV ring at an open show, when you would expect the tightest control over the dogs.  

No, of course dogs shouldn't be allowed to be a nuisance to others, and upset them. Which is, I thought, the whole point of this thread ... ;)

Fillis,

Absolutely, everyone should control their dogs and not allow them to pester other dogs.  If the dog does not get distracted and/or irritated (bitch or male dog) - then the handler certainly may!  

Stacey

Well in Europe it is against the rules under the FCI, but of course they are Vetted in.

When I went to the World show in Holland with two of my bitches their bits were checked for signs of blood loss, though some people said the veting was cursory in their case, it was pretty throrough with mine.  they weren't that keen going up the ramp though.

Also they are banned from Obedience shows, so if the KC felt it was important then it would have the rule for conformation shows too.  I am not arguing the rights and wrongs, just pointing out that a complaint is useless if the rules are not being breached.

In that case no male canine would ever be able to be shown - in my experience they're in season 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year :D :D :D

LOL I know what you mean

Last summer we hardly entered any shows when willow was a puppy because we were waiting for to come into season from about 7 months onwards and I really felt we missed out on her champ show puppy classes.  She eventually came into season at 10 1/2 months to which the end of this co-incided with her first champ show (sods law).  After much debate at the time we did take her, sprayed her well and did not bench her.  She was in the ring after the males and didn't get any attention.

I wouldn't take her in season to an open show nor to ringcraft training, but I would take her to a champ show bathed and sprayed.   Now, can I have a moan about people who leave bits of food in the ring which distract my bitch so I can't get her head up? - only joking - we've been down that road before!  (bits of liver - boxers etc..)

I'm probably going to be shot down in flames for saying this...........
I have shown my bitch in season,as recently as last week in fact.I own a 2 yr old Newfie,totally black and for the first two seasons she came in spot on time.
However in January I "adopted" a litter of orphaned 3 wk old pups and she was due to come into season again end Feb/early March and didn't.
I put it down to her being Mammy to the pups and got on with things (as one does).She has not had a litter as yet as she is too young.
The morning of a CH show after spending the previous night grooming,bathing and tarting her up we noticed blood on the floor and we said OK well lets still show her as she was in great form,jumping about and not at all mopey(which has happened in the past and we have pulled her when she is like that),however she was left either in the car or walked away from the other dogs/people/show rings until it was her turn,with bitches only.
Afterwards she went back to the car and then home.Not one dog paid the slightest bit of attention to her (and I was checking) and we also used bitch spray,just in case.

To be fair I do think it also depends on the owners of the bitch,as long as she is cared for and treated more gently during this time and protected by the owners,I don't see the harm.However I kept her home from training as the hall we use is quite small and that is putting temptation under too many dogs noses.I think a large dose of realism is needed on these occasions too by people.
I haven't spayed her as I am not sure if we want to breed her or if indeed she will pass all the relavant tests for her breed and will cross that bridge when we come to it.
Please don't think I am cruel because if she was not her normal bouncy self or appeared depressed (its easy to spot believe me) or out of sorts then no I would not have shown her but I made a decision based on the facts before me on the day in question.

regards
Brenda

Brenda,

I happen to agree with you and as I have said, have shown my bitch in season at a champ show.  I think it is down to the responsibility of the owner to look out for the welfare of their bitch and be considerate to other exhibitors. 

I agree wholeheartedly - it should be a level playing field for dogs and bitches with an equal number of chances to win. It is already (for some unkown reason) more likely the male will get BOB (according to figures in one of the dog papers some time ago) without adding further restrictions. Responsible and thoughtful behaviour from all owners and handlers is all that is needed.

Unfortunately it can never be a level playing-field. Dogs don't take time off to have litters. If breeders waited till their bitch's retirement from the ring they would be too old for their first litter.

In my breed a bitch is likely to be out of the ring at least 6 months when being bred from, from season to birth is 11 weeks, and you are very lucky if the bitch is good enough coat wise to be shown before her pups are 6 months old.

There are a number of reasons for the male haveing a better chance of BOB even if all else is equal.

He will be entering the ring fresh, with an interesting female there waiting for him, so will be on his toes.

The bitch may well have been in a time consuming Open class (often teh winner is from Open or Limit), then the challenge, and then in comes this male.

Also males are more ofteh in good coat than bitches who moult more due to hormones, and often the male sex characterisitcs give a bigger coat, and that male arrogance can be more impressive.

Time and time again critiques say the depth of quality is in the bitches, yet the males get BOB.

No sour grapes her, as I hae had BOB more times than not.

I quite agree with all that about a male BOB being more common :-)

Have we ever seen any statistics on BPIB sex winners, I wonder if the advantage goes with the bitch for this as they will have just been back in for the challenge & will therefore be more settled?