Some times I wonder about people would people on here class a Bullmastiff as a dog suitable for a first time owner?
Today outside the bank, a man in his late 30's was standing with a Bullmastiff pup about 5 months old the pup was lovely and looked to be well bred, but he was playing his owner up something rotten, chewing his lead and barking/lunging at passing people.
I went and spoke to the man and the pup (who I must say was as good as gold when approached) it seems this is their first dog ever and he had seen on the "web" that Bullmastiffs are "good guard dogs" and thought the lunging/barking was what that meant. He said the pup was from a well known kennels (I didn't ask which) and I must say the pup looked stunning and as if he would be big. They had not given him any info on the nature/behaviour of Bullmastiffs other than feeding.
He had seen the pups once at 5 weeks and then at 7 weeks when he collected the dog.
To my knowledge which is scant on bullmastiffs they were bred to "hold a person" until the gamekeeper arrived not to attack/bite without provication.

Would you think that a bullmastiff or any bull breed in this I would include (EBT,SBT,ISBT,AP,Mastiffs,B-Mastiffs,even maybe Rotties and dobes) would be a breed for a first time owner. And would you sell a Bullmastiff dog to a new comer to the breed.

Karen   

I would sell a bullmastiff to a newcomer to the breed but only if they had experience of other large dogs.No,I might have to revise that as I bought a Dobermann and had only been used to smaller dogs before that,so I shall say that only after much consideration and vetting would I sell to a newcomer to the breed.Anyway,I don't have bullmastiffs but you get my drift,sandra.:D

Sorry I think re-reading my post I have phrased it wrongly.

I mean would you not expect a new comer to your breed to at least know something about the history/temprament of the breed.

Karen

Think that the handling of a large dog such as this is not the only problem, they need special care when young and the correct food. I know all pups do but the larger the breed the more imperative it is that the owner knows what they are doing. Have to say all those I have met would not make good guards unless you think being drowned in slobber counts, most seem people and dog friendly. And no, I would not think it a suitable first dog.

At the risk of being shot down in flames IMHO no dog should attack/bite with (or without provocation) until and unless it has been specifically commanded to do so!

Also it depends on how you intepret the phrase "Guard Dog".  To some it means a dog that will give a "warning" bark, to others it means one that will patrol and guard a property, to yet others it means a personal protection dog.

In the strictest sense the term Guard Dog refers to dogs that are specifically trained for Security Work in the UK and as such need special licensing, housing and control measures as well as signage etc.

The other point I suppose is that we were all first time owners of a breed once upon a time and I am not sure if it is always necessary to "prove ones worth" by a sort of "qualification" process prior to acquiring what may be a "challenging" breed by owning another first?

Hmm,
You see this dog although a pup was big - compared to my Staff ;) and he was lunging and barking at people and they were avoiding him the man was doing nothing to deter him. Other than tease him with his lead which the pup then chewed.
I mean how is he going to socialise properly if people are avoiding him. :(

And he seemed to be under the impression he had a guard dog - as I pointed out he had a puppy and if he wanted to protect his house to buy a "burgular alarm" 
I know everyone was once a first time owner of their breed, but surely a breeder should have some responsibilty into educating a first time owner.
Karen

surely a breeder should have some responsibilty into educating a first time owner.

Absolutely, however, playing Devils Advocate for a minute, it may well be that the breeder did just that, unfortunately not all owners will listen etc......................

People hear what they want to hear etc etc

Tough situation, probably no easy answer?

Hmm I think I'm going soft in my old age ;) at one time I wouldn't have bothered but now I think I see more "misplaced kindess" than I used too. Rather than "outright curelty"

And your right I know people don't listen but it seemed a shame a lovely bred dog (from what I could see) and an attitude when you got close that would be a pleasure to live with (I think) but being allowed to "do as he pleased" it didn't seem a good senario. :(

Karen 

Hi Karen. Guess you know what my answer is. No. I think people should be trained before being allowed a dog of any kind and given a certificate to say that they are capable of controling the dog of their choice with different levels for different breeds. This would cut the number of people who are incapable of looking after a dog. It would cut the number of incidents by dogs. It would also cut the puppy farming too as the numbers of people who want a dog as a fad would diminish. Insurance for 3rd party liability and secure premises with hefty penaltys for mistakes.

My first dog ever was a Belgian shpherd Groenendael, yes I made mistakes, but I coped, as I was committed.  Must say my second choice of breed I find easy by comparison, but many would view it as a breed for someone dog savvy.

I have had more dogs back for rehoming from people who had the breed for years than new owners.  These were people who had forgotten what hard work puppies are and that they had aged in the intervening 12 to 15 years since their last one was a pup.

For Karen,Yes I absolutely believe that for any breed that is new to you you should research it 100%,speak to people,especially owners of that breed you are looking to buy and always speak to the breed club,they will help out no end,sorry if I mis-read it,sandra.

Well I ignored all the books that told me a saluki was definitely not a breed for a beginner, but I figured having dogs all my life as a child would make it a piece of cake...

Well, now I know that I was very very wrong about that, and I have had (and am still sometimes having) hard times with Dill, but I don't regret getting him for a second.

As others have mentioned, I think the most important thing is that prospective owners have researched the breed thoroughly, read all they can, are willing to keep learning as they go, and are living in a suitable situation to keep their chosen breed.  However, just because they are beginners doesn't mean they should be refused by the breeder point blank.

Of course there are limits - one of my favourite breeds is the komondor, but I wouldn't dream of taking one on in my situation and with my experience, but I also tremble at the thought of having to convince a good UK breeder to let me buy a puppy after reading some of the incredibly strict conditions breeders apply.  I can understand that they are very protective of their puppies, but it's a shame when perfectly good owners are passed over for rather slight reasons, perhaps causing them to go to less reputable places to get their dog.

That is why I never make hard and fast rules about puppies, such as never in such and such a home.  The commitment of the owners is paramount.

I have homed two pups (now 6 1/2 and 5 1/2) to a couple who live in a flat!!!  When I first got the enquiry I was ready to dismiss them out of hand, but decided to question how they would deal with potential problems, housetraining, neighbours (re possible noise) and excersise.

they were so commited to making it work, that they are probably one of the best homes I have.  When he was training for his job and it coincided with his wifes shift they got a dog sitter in to look after the then 10 month dog, at £70 a week for a few hours.

As he is a Taxi driver, and wife works part time the dogs are rarely alone, but for a few hours are company for each other.

I do agree that some dog breeds are more "specialist" and require a bit more knowledge and work but I don't think any breed should be off-limits to a first-time owner - However, I do think it is the breeder's responsibility to check that the owner has done the research and is committed and is buying that particular breed for the right reasons. (And obviously the new owner's responsibility to make sure that he has done his homework too). I don't think it's fair to just say, "It's a difficult dog, therefore as a newcomer, you shouldn't have it" - because where would you start to learn otherwise? You would always be a newcomer until you're allowed your first! But that doesn't mean that you should just plunge into it without a great deal of research and thought. A good breeder should be grilling any potential owners and making sure of their intentions and their ability to deal with the special needs of that breed.

I myself have a Great Dane puppy as my first-ever dog and I have to say, it has been a VERY steep learning curve. And this is after I had been doing 5 YEARS' worth of research on the breed, going to shows to see them, visiting breeders (without any intention to buy), dog-sitting a friend's Dane to see what they're like to live with, visiting Dane forums to read and learn and also finding out all about their special requirements, with regards to nutrition and exercise, inherited disorders, etc. I finally went to the breeder armed with a list of questions about hip scores, heart tests, temperament tests,longevity, cancer incidence, frequency of litters per year, life-time involvement, etc, etc and in turn, expected her to give me the 3rd degree to make sure that I knew what I was letting myself in for. I'd also met my puppy's father several times at shows and knew he was famous for his temperament, and subsequently met the mother at the breeders. I also knew it was a repeat mating and had met pups from the earlier mating and knew they were lovely dogs. And STILL, with all this preparation, I found it really hard work in the beginning. Theory and practice are totally different things and all the books/research in the world cannot subsitute for experience. But at least I was prepared and committed. I really shudder to think of all the people who just go and get a Great Dane puppy on a whim, because they want the "biggest dog in the neighbourhood" or think having a giant dog is really cool or some other stupid, macho reason. Sadly, that is a very common occurrence and I'm sure it's the same with the bull breeds. And because these dogs ARE special, things can go horribly wrong when people get them unprepared or for the wrong reasons...I guess that's why maybe people think they shouldn't be given to first-time owners because a badly behaved Great Dane or Bullmastiff is alot more dangerous than a badly behaved Westie or Labrador.

Having said that, I don't think people who have had other breeds can be too smug either. Just because they've always owned terriers doesn't mean that they'll automatically know how to handle a giant or guarding breed and I think they should be expected to do as much research and preparation. The only difference I guess is that they have had experience of "dogs" which does help - but essentially, with this particular breed, they are a "first-time owner" too. I have met a few Dane owners who have always had dogs of smaller breeds and find now that they are still struggling with their first Dane. It's amazing the things that smaller dogs are allowed to do and get away with, simply because they are smaller and easier to handle (like lunging and pulling on the lead) - and you can't use those same rules when you've got a big, powerful dog in the family.

I think in this case, it is the breeders fault not to give the man any more information on the breed...but the man also sounds like he didn't really do his homework and like many people, got the dog on a combination of whim and impulse. It's really awful - I think people ought to be made to pass exams on a breed before they're allowed to buy it (any breed) - sort of like passing a test for a driving licence before you're allowed to handle a car!

Hsin-Yi

Research and study of your chosen breed is valuable and to be encouraged.

However, when it comes to handling "difficult" breeds some people can just do it, some people can learn it, but MANY should just stick to cats, budgies or gerbils! ;-)

Yes Havoc, I completely agree, many is the time I have suggested such a thing to several owners!

As they say, if you can't control it, don't own it!