I own a very handsome Welsh pedigree Golden Retriever, he is two years old and I would like to breed him. Can someone give me some information on this. He is a family pet/member but has such a brilliant temperament. What is the routine with the pups that he may sire ? I have heard the stud owner gets one of the litter ? Any help or advice would be most elcome, Thanks.

If he is a much loved family pet then I would leave it at that. Sadly owning a stud dog is not necessarily the best thing in the world although not all dogs have problems. You could, however, end up with a dog that may cock his leg in the house, become more aggressive with male dogs particulalry if a bitch is around, starts howling if he smells a bicth in sease, may go off looking for a bitch in season and so on if you use him.
Just leave him as he is and enjoy him he doesnt need to be a daddy!

I wouldn't use your pet dog as stud>>>>> Here are my reasons
1, he would have to hip-scored{cost around £80 at a vets}
2, He would have to have a good score
3, He will have to have his eyes tested and be clear on ALL fields
4, Most stud dogs would have been used by now{usually at the age of around 1}
5, It MAY alter his temprement
6,Has he got a good pedigree
7, NO the stud fee for a maiden dog would certainly NOT be pick of the litter it is usually free{or a small fee }
8,You would be responsible for making sure he is put to only responsible bitch owners
9,Mating dogs CAN be very difficult, would you know how to handle your male dog{it is not just a case of put them in the garden and let them get on with it!!!!!!!!}

If you are looking for a puppy I suggest you buy one

If you were in Bristol Hip Scoring would cost you around £130 to £150! £50+ for the Anasthetic the same for the Xrays, then the BVA fee, and the Vets consultation fee!

HD is a widespread problem in Golden Retrievers, and you should take into account not only your dogs score but that of his parents and granparents. You can find out by ringing the Kennel Club what their scores (if they were scored) were. You just have to give their registered names.

Honestly though there is no shortage of Golden retriever Stud Dogs who have proved their superior Qualities by winning at shows or field trials, so you are unlikely to attract the right sort of bitch owner to your boy, who is an 'unknown'. Those you would attract are those who do not have the required knowledge or love of the breed. This means they are unlikely to be fussy as to where the puppies go, maybe pet shops. Would you really want to be party to such irresponsible breeding?

On the other hand if your dog is a reqally good example, why not take the trouble to prove him in the ring or field, then you could offer him at Stud if he proves worthy, and make a contribution to the breed.

Why not start by joining your local Breed Club, and attend some events run by them, such as shows, working days, and seminars! There is a lot to learn in the breeding of GOOD dogs.

Thank you all very much for your advice. You can all calm down as this novice will heed your advice and keep him as he is, a much loved pet, I would'nt risk the change in him. When the time comes we will purchase a pup from a reputable breeder.Thanks again.

I am sorry to here you have been put of by these replies, everyone here was a novice at some point, and wanted advise from someone we all have to start some where, May I ask how many of you own a golden retrievers who have replied, I have them myself, I have done all the tests on my dogs there are, however showing is a persons own taste myself, I choose not to, not because my dogs are not good enough, but because for the same reason i choose not to parade my children, everyone has there own likes and dislikes, and shows are mine, there are some nice breeders who show dogs but there are also some out there I would not even by a newspaper from let alone a dog. And can see no reason to advise that for their dog to be any good to breed with it needs to be in a show ring to prove its worth, as every judge has his own preference, what wins at one show will not at another, why because one judge, does not like some aspect of that winner the other week. What ever happened, to a dogs temperament, the results of his x rays, the eye tests that is a better place to start. My advise would be, speak with your vet, read up on the dogs, have a look at the pedigree, see whats there, talk to a good breeder, they do not have to show, not a puppy farm or a petshop you will find a good one, believe me, and like everything, dont listern to the first person, but do make sure you talk to someone who actually owns a goldie and not some other breed as it is not the same thing at all. And do not go into showing as a way to prove something, as you have nothing to prove to anyone, it is totally up to you to show a dog, and not something to go into lightly. A good dog can also be what you make it, the average person, looks for a good temperamnet in a dog, healthy happy friendly dog, who has been home reared around children if possible, not kennelled, or shown, no one who has ever brought one of my pups has ever, once asked if i show, I have had 85 enquiries since christmas for puppies from myself. so I must be doing something right, I dont want my dogs shown, when i meet a new owner, I want to know my dog would be well looked after and loved, I do contracts with all my dogs, and have never sold a puppy to a shop, show people will never buy one of your pups they all breed their own, and for the person who said you will attract the wrong sort of breeder, are there not some wrong show breeders out there also, who have no real concerns for there dogs, just what they can win, I am afraid you will find there are. you can not push someone into showing a dog, because its what you do, surely good advise, from a good vet, and the knowledge of a decent breeder is better than a rossette win at a dog show, to say if a dog is any good, I do hope i have no affended anyone, but isnt it time people asked the proffesional people like vets etc, first, because at the end of the day a dog can win every show but if the xray is no good, you still cant breed can you so it has failed to be the perfect dog, on the inside.

I OWN and LOVE goldens too.
Ask a vet well thats a joke!!!!!!!!! I know of VERY few good vets that have a realistic idea on breeding,{"don't worry about hip scoring she had a good temprement.........." " I know of a good stud dog" which turns out to be on a puppy farm!!!!!!} I am not going to go into all the situations senarios ect.
But having a stud dog is a MAJOR responsibility BOTH parties are in my eyes responsible for the puppies EVERY stud dog owner should ensure the bitches owner is sensible and capable of rearing and homing the puppies.
I know many stud dog owners who put their males to any old bitch without even checking they have been hip/eye tested plus checking that the matching of the 2 pedigrees is not likly to cause any genetic/temprement problems.
Most good stud dog owners keep records and if any problem or deformality accurs with a certain bitch then they will not allow that male to mate with a female from those lines again.
I have been asked a few times to use my male on bitches but as he isnt hip scored then I have refused.
I didnt mean to put anyone off trying to use their male at stud but better not to look at the whole thing through rose tinted glasses !!!!!!!!!!!

Me,
How refreshing, I agree with all you said and have said it myself but I don't think anyone agreed with me. This notion that only those who show should breed dogs is wrong.Temperament and health are the most important factors when it comes to breeding as well as the right temperament of the owner and suitable enviroment to kindly and hygienically rear the puppies and good judge of character to find good homes. I still maintain that those whos priorities are showing may not posses these atributes, although some will.
Ted

I wholeheartedly agree with Ted and Me!
I don't show, and feel sometimes that pressure to show in order to "prove" something. I know that is not right. I would not parade my kids around, so why should I with my dogs? It does not mean that I am not a good and ethical breeder because I do not show . I'm glad others think the way I do.

Emma
I am sorry to hear the vets you have come across have not been any good, i must be the lucky one and have one in my area, that talks sense, the point i am trying to get across, was nothing to do with puppy farming mating dogs with out having the proper scores done, I never said that having a stud dog was an easy thing, but neither is it as hard as is being made out, i have had stud dogs, myself, all hip and elbowed and eye tested, and they are a pleasure to have, maybe again i am the lucky one, i never said go out dont have any tests done on your dogs, mate with any female that comes along, if i did then maybe i was at the time wearing the rose coloured glasses you mentioned, but i dont believe for one minute i mentioned such a thing, weather a dog is male or female a pet a show dog or whatever an owner must be responsible,a dog should never be taken on lightly, there are terrible breeders out there we have all come across the stories at some point, but there are good, my point was go to your vet speak to them about hip scores eye tests, ask them if they know of others who breed in the area,we can not say all vets talk rubbish as i feel that is unfair, on the good that are there, and if my vet talked such rubbish then he wouldnt be my vet for long, read books there are enough out there. I am not saying go into it lightly, I think you are seeking more into this than was meant, I was not even thinking about Your reply when i put mine on here, i felt that by people saying show your dog to prove he is worthy, was not needed. I agree with what you said on most points, however You can not stop the bad breeders, out there, no matter what people say at the end of the day, but my point is by showing a dog does not make a person a good breeder either, we can not tarnish everyone with the same brush, there are good breeders who dont show, there are also bad there are good breeders who show and bad, however that is the society we live in, and in my opinion as long as there are people buying from these people thinking they are getting a good cheap dog, they will always be there. However, what i am trying to say is why is so much always put on shows and showing a dog, which was a reply on here, there are some dogs who are shown that do look wonderful, but they would still look wonderful had they never been in a ring, would they not, at the end of the day, a dogs hip score is no lower through being shown, his temperament no better, that was to whom i was replying, My dogs are a very high priority on my list, i go into nothing with them lightly, and i felt for a person to put a question on here and to ask someone, can not be all bad, your reply was good, you told them the truth about what was expected, but there are other replies that were not needed, surely you must agree with that.

Breeding dogs to my mind cannot be likened to a proffession, citing that the more experience one has the more one learns. I would only agree there if it is years spent studying ones breed and lines, not producing countless litters. In breeding puppies and providing the required after sales service one cannot be proffessional if one breeds many litters. I certainly find one litter a year more than enough work, as it is in the first year that one has to give most advice and time to the puppies new owners.

Breeding dogs is a hobby for most, or a lifes work, almost a vocation for others! It should be a Craft not a matter of Mass produced commerce. A breed as popular as Golden Retrievers does not need more dabblers as there are plenty of poorly bred ones, and as has been said not enough of those with the betterment of the breed at heart!

What are the reasons for breeding, and gauging the quality of ones stock, or that of others if one does not show or work ones stock? there is a breed standard, and requirements of Character that make a breed unique. REPUTABLE BREEDERS as opposed to puppy producers have Health, Temperament, and Breed Type as their main goals when breeding, and if successful their breeding is recognised as being of quality by the awards it gains in the show or working field. Most of these dogs are also FAMILY COMPANIONS FIRST AND FOREMEOST. So the show or working enthusiast has higher goals for his dogs than the average pet owner.

Please refresh me by explaining how a person who knows so little about breeding that they need to ask how to get their dog used at stud can benefit any breed. A person who has studied their breed wouldn't need to ask! Knowledge is the first requirement for a breeder.

I agree completely Brainless. If the question is asked, then there isn't enough knowledge there. That doesn't meant that the question shouldn't be asked - just that the same reply needs to be repeated again.
A very interesting comment - "if my dog produces a problem, then I don't let him mate with a bitch of that line again"! That sounds a bit like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted to me. You've already produced the problem by then! If the bitch hasn't been line bred and has a hotch potch of a pedigree, how would you know what "line" your dog shouldn't be used on again??? I don't understand how anyone could absorb enough knowledge about what lines, and more importantly individual dogs within those lines, carry which virtues and failings, if they don't mix with breed enthusiasts with knowledge of breed history. Pedigrees are not just a collection of names. Each name should "mean" something to a breeder. Without that knowledge, I consider it to be churning our puppies, not breeding.
There is rarely a reason for owners of quality bitches to use unshown/worked studs. We don't show our dogs to say that my dog is better than you dog. If a dog is successful, it says that enough other people, not just my personal opinion, say that my dog is of sufficient quality, that it is a good enough specimen of its breed, to be bred from.
Generally, Vets are taught very little about breeding. One of my daughter's boyfriends who was in his final year at Veterinary College, had never seen a bitch whelp naturally. He'd only been taught how to perform a caesarian. With a little tongue in cheek, it would be in Vets interest to encourage people with little knowledge to breed and produce poorly puppies with problems. Their businesses survive on sorting out the problems!! The best Vet I've every had showed and bred dogs himself. Unfortunately he's now retired. He was truly a treasure!
Of course, everything said is a generalisation. There are exceptions to every rule. All our personal experiences are different. Not all exhibitors/working folk are good breeders, but the public stand a better chance of buying a healthy, sound and good tempered puppy from a person who is commits much of their spare time to mixing with other dog people, than one who just produces puppies and takes the money.

I think we have to agree to disagree, we all have differnet experiences, I believe enough knowledge can be gained, about the dogs, the breed standard- temperament - pedigree etc: without having to put my dog into a ring, i mix with others who do, but my preference is i have decided not to, a circle in which I know i would not enjoy, which is my choice. Breeding your dog is not something you rush out and do just because you fancy doing so and think you can, make money quickly. As for knowledge everyone who knows anything about dogs learnt from someone, through a peiod of time, you asked you studied etc you learnt you were not born with such knowledge. For the people who ask they have the right to be given the facts, as and when, they will do as they wish anyway no matter what you and i say, but i believe the facts are the ones that should be stressed to such people if they are going to go out and breed there dogs, is it not best as emma stressed the tests first by making people aware that they would need to be done, the expense of taking on something like this, and that knowledge first before recommending showing dogs, because, i know that no one would listern to that, but at least by telling them more about the xrays etc, and the followings that can happen from not doing such things would surely be more beneficial.
I know from placing my reply on here that from the show people i would recieve such a reply, but i stand by my own beliefs, that people do not have to show a dog to have a good dog, the dog is judged at one show depending on the judges preference it is placed accordingly,it goes to another show the following week and say does less well, what has changed on the dog so drastically in a week, nothing except a judges preference. that is what i chose to not get involved in, and i believe that you are wrong when you say people do not go there to win, or be placed it is the compedative streak in everyone, maybe there are a slim few who go there for a few other reasons, but being placed is a high priority, ask a show person, lastly the statement about good show breeders only doing one litter a year, have you looked at the kc books lately, there are several top show people who had five litters last year, was that needed. I am not trying to put anyones beliefs down, but we all have differnet ones, concerning our dogs. Have a look on the internet everyone who shows offers there dogs to stud to a female who has been hip scored and eye tested, what is the need to do so if they go to such shows, people already know they have a stud dog, reason because they want to hit a bigger circle the people who do not show, they will still take there money and be happy to do so, had the dog never set foot in a show ring. i think the trouble is peoples beliefs are so different, you will always find people who let the sides down weather show people or not.

I can agree with much of what you say Me. I also think it unnecessary for people to offer their dogs at stud. If a dog is good enough IMHO, people with quality bitches will know that he is there without being advertised. Quality being the important word.
From what you say it would appear that you have friends who show and put in the time, money and interest to gain the knowledge while you stay at home, pick their brains and breed puppies. Have I got that right or have I misunderstood your post? That would mean that you trust your friends to ask the right questions of the right people, rather than use your own judgment of the dogs and people involved. Fine if that suits you all. We all do it differently.
You bring up the old chestnut again that we all have to learn from somewhere. Of course it's true but we don't have to all keep making the same mistakes that have been made before, just out of ignorance. That's why it's important to learn first and then breed afterwards, rather than learn by the mistakes that we make in breeding. Every mistake that we as breeders make, is a liability that we pass on to a new owner to live with for the next 12 or so years.
I could very easily stop going to dog shows because of the politics and "human natures" involved. But if I stopped going then I would stop breeding. I often go as a spectator and look and learn, even after nearly 20 years. How would I know if the latest top winning dog was sound or just had 3 friends to give him CCs? Not that I use the latest winning dog, but I need to know all about him because a few years down the line, he will be in the pedigree of most dogs in the country! How would I know what lines produce sound movement, good temperament and overall breed type that I'm looking for? Lines change, dogs change, people change - that's the way of the world.
As always, we can all agree and disagree on many things.

I would say the only time a Stud dog may need to be advertised (in club publications) is with an older dog, who may not be currently in the ring, and people may not know they are still around. an older dog with a proven track record may be a better mate for a young bitch say, but people may not know the dog is still around!

I would prefer to use an older dog on a young bitch, as what he has produced can be evaluated, and the bitch is an unknown quantity as to her offspring. One can also see that he has stayed fit and healthy to a good age, and has produced healthy stock.

with a young unproven dog I would always prefer to use a bitch that has already produced, as I will have been able to see how they turned out.

I do think to properly evaluate a dog and bitch one needs to look at offspring from different pairtings, which is why to really know a bitches worth, and what traits are coming most probably from her it is helpful to have several litters, not just the one litter for replacement of the dam! I know some people think you should always only breed to keep something, which is Ok if you keep quite a few, but if you can only keep a few, you won't learn as much about your bitches potential from only one or two litters!

My two oldest bitches have had two and three litters rerspectively, and are spayed veterans. My third bitch has had one litter in 1999 and produced my first Champion. I am hoping to mate her at the end of the year (she will be 5) to a young male 3 friends and I have imported from a long established Kennel who are renowned for the care taken with health. I am eager to see whether it was my bitch or her chosen mate that accounted for the quality of her first litter. This will give me valuable information so that I know where to go with the daughter!

Val
I think you have got my post wrong, i do not as you so nicely put it pick anyones brains, i dont believe i need to, i said i never show nor want to i have however been to shows, and my knowledge is infact pretty good, with a grandmother who has done so most of her life, i dont think i needed to go far for any sound advice, do you. We can not all presume that non show people are less capable of breeding a puppy properly, but can see why you can imagine such a thing when there are stupid breeders out there, giving us a bad name, but please do remember that in that show ring, are also some bad breeders as well, it seems to me that your standards are very good, on such aspects, as for the need to advertise a dog for stud, need only be done in a show publication is probably how you do things, but you can search the internet and find many breeder who show stating stud dog available to hip and eye tested bitches. So there are a great many with less high standards as your own.

I feel we have probably voiced our opinions to death on this subject, it has been very nice to debate over such things as these, i am sure i will never convince anyone that people who choose not to show are not all brain dead idiots, no more than you are able to convience me about show, people, I look forward to talking again sometime, good luck to you, in the future with your dogs, may all your shows be good ones. :]

I am so glad there is some one like me out there. I have studied the breed I wish to breed from and owned several of the that breed through the years, but always wanted to breed and the time has never been right, but now my children are growing up I made the decision to purchase a bitch with a veiw to breeding from her. My thought process on this whole project started two years ago and just over a year ago i puchased my puppy. I have shown her (2 shows were more than enough for both of us) at one show the judge ( who writes for national dog press) took me to one side and told me what a good example of her breed (chocolate Lab) she is, but I do not enjoy the shows the people are aloof and certainly don't want to help a new comer and my dog thought it boring which does not help. After this I decided there is no reason not to breed from her as long as she has her checks ( which she has ) she does not have to prove her self in the show ring as most if not all her puppies would go to family homes, if I thought she had bred an exeptional puppy (hard to tell when babies) I would keep it and join a ring cfaft club and try again. Most show breeders keep what they deam the best for themselves anyway as they want the best chance of winning anyway what chance the rest of us?

I agree that we all have to start somewhere and we should not have to show dogs to breed good sound puppies that are a true representation of the breed, but it must not be done lightly, I will let you know if I change my mind on this, next year when I hope to have a litter ( i hatern to add late next year when my girl will be 3 or almost as i feel she has a right to her puppy hood.)

Two shows is hardly enough to make up your mind that breeders are unhelpful and aloof. As in all pastimes you need time to get to know people. One person told you that your bitch was a good example of her breed! What of her ancestors, do you know what strengths and weaknesses they posess, and what of the breeders other stock? These are all things you will need to know, which is why you either have to be in the thick of where you can study the breeding stock (showring or working field).

You can of course glean some of this knowledge from the breeder of your bitch, but you will be basing your decisions on their knowledge, not increasing your own expertise! You cannot gain this expertise in isolation!

We all started somewhere, our bitches breeder usually, or possibly her sires owner or both! I have been mentored by both, one started in 1953 and the other 1961, with an enviable record of breeding good stock for themselves, but mostly others!

Breeders cannot keep something from every litter they breed, so are more than happy to start an enthusiastic newcomer off, lets face it it adds to their reputation for others to be winning with stock they have bred!

Breeding should be for the improvement or maintaining the standard of the breed in the 3 vital areas Health ,Temperament and Breed Type (this includes the mental characteristics needed for the purpose they were bred for).

Ha! That is funny, breeders want to have others winning with their pups!
I find that many show breeders want you to sign a contract to show, all the while knowing that the puppy you are purchasing will not win in the ring, and that they will gain points off of you. Breeders who don't show are capable of gaining much knowledge about their breed without going into the ring themselves. And "picking" others brains is an excellent way of doing that. Books, articles in breed magazines, internet and viewing but not actually participating is a good way to gain knowledge. I find that 2 shows is enough for a person to decide whether they like it or not. Showing should not be a torment to dog or owner.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, that those who breed in the US have many more lines to choose from and their are many champions from each breed. Each year their is a slight variation "read" into the official standard(type). Those who show breed for the types that will win. Pretty sad.

The system in the UK is rather different than in US, and a breeder gains nothing other than the pleasure of seeing thir stock shown, in having others show, the title giving wins are not based on a points system directly.

The KC allocates a certain number of sets of CCs (3 for a champion) based on a complicated formula which includes n7umbers registered and shown! In my breed we have 18 sets of CCs. The CC goes to the BEST OF EACH SEX (unless witheld, which does sometimes happen). There is no Champions class, the Champions compete in Open, so the CC winner has to get past the best, not just be the best non Champion. In my breed about 6 dogs are made up a year! Though some years it is less, but rarely more! The number of elkhounds at the CC shows is usually around 40, with club show having over 100, and popular centrally located ones often 60 to 80 exhibits. In the 70s and 80s numbers were higher!

All the breeders I know want their best stock to be shown, preferably by others (well someone else pays the entry) We do not have the same kind of Co-ownership that seems widespread in the States, Puppy buyers want their puppy outright with no strings, even breeding terms is rare (where a bitch or dog is sold at a reduced rate for breeding access later).

In a numerically small breed like ours we have the problem that not enough people are showing, males especially (a breeders own males are likely to soon be of little use to their own bitches, as few run more than one line), and the choice of Studs is ever shrinking. Breeders obviously keep more bitches, some exclusively, so without that nice male owned by that nice family, bred by so and so, there would be less choice again. So I suppose there is some self interest.

In UK showing is a far more relaxed business than what I understand it is like in US, where there are a lot of Pro handlers. Here it is mostly owner handlers, and showing is a day out. As in all things some people take it all too seriously. I have found that it is in fact the older most experienced breeders who are most helpful, rather than the newert (less than 10 years), some of whom like to give the impression that they are far more important than they are, such is life.

Couldn't agree more, but a lot of would be breeders don't pick anyones brains for the required info, as they have no idea that there is more to breeding than mating a dog and a bitch! This is why I suggest people go to shows, working tests. Your average pet owner may never have seen more than half a dozen of their own breed at a time! The number of times I get stopped walking my dogs and people ask me how I tell them apart! To my eye they are quite different in their faults and virtues! what is the Opinion and judgement of a person like this worth when it comes to breeding sound and healthy livestock.

I have met many such pet breeders in the popular breeds, where it is easy to find someone around the corner with an animal of the opposite sex, hey presto they are a breeder. they proundly anounce, sophie is so wonderful, we are only breeding pets not for money like these proffesional breeders they sneer! They have never heard of health testing, and when I mention it they say, oh but Sophie will only have a few litters!, and there is nothing wrong with her, and off they go with the little bitch skipping because of her slipping patella!

Then we have vets continually besmirching breeders for bad practice, when what they mostly see are poor specimens produced this way, or on puppy farms. so much so that many of us are almost ashamed to answer yes when we are asked if we breed, feeling the need to Qualify the answer!

Hi Brainless,

RE - Professional breeders.

How do you identify a professional breeder from an amatuer one? Surely it's all down to attitude. If you conduct yourself in a 'professional' manner then in my eyes you are a professional breeder. The world is full of breeders who haven't a clue about what is best for their animal let alone the breed.

How those people can call themsleves professional breeders is beyond me.

I would love to breed from Holly as the thought of all those little puppies is very appealing and to have a puppy from day one and to see him/her develop from birth to old age would be perfect. Unfortunately I would be one of the well-meaning amateur breeders so I won't be mating Holly. I don't have the knowledge or the confidence that I would do the best for her and the breed, so I'll be leaving breeding to the 'professionals'.

Fiona

Hi Bumble,It wouldnt do any breeder regardless of which country they were in to have you showing an unworthy show specimen in the ring,in fact the opposite would be true they wouldnt want people to see something inferiour bred by them to be shown...I had a shock one day when I saw in a catalogue at a show a Labrador I had sold as Pet Quality,this dog was really unsuitable for showing and I was really embarrassed,I saw them at a few shows and had told them she was'nt suitable for show ( in a nice way) anyway they bought a show quality one later and kept saying how much better she was in the end I pointed out that the one from me wasnt bought as a show dog.
Even if you have a fantastic looking Pup very promisng they can 'go off' ts very hard to choose a dead cert,and most of the top breeders will run on whole litters for ages to make sure they have the best to keep.
Best Wishes.

Sorry Mattie, but it is often done here. Breeders sell a dog that is showable, but know that it is not their best, show against it, and gain points for their dog. As Brainless pointed out, the system is different over there. I agree that you can't tell if a pup is show quality when they are young. It is very "professional" over here. They tend to be very snobby and don't like new-comers. Only occasionally will you find a show breeder who doesn't put on airs. I think it is very easy to determine if a person has a genuine interest in becomming a reputable breeder. I ahd a woman come and look at one of my puppies the other night. She never had owned the breed, knew NOTHING about the breed and went on to say during the course of the conversation that she will probably end up breeding from the bitch. I felt sick! Not my baby! Off she went(thank God!!!!!) without my baby.

Thanks for the reply of course I can only really speak for UK but I would have hoped it would be the same anywhere,also have you noticed that who is on the end of the lead counts,some years ago I bred two litters one a repeat mating of the other both producing a show champion,I kept the other brother anyway I asked a friend well know in the breed would he show mine at championship shows the brother always came first or at least high up in the line at ch shows,My one was in the line up and second at one large ch show and qualified for Crufts,anyway The friend said thats it now you take him in from now on and he did nothing at all after that,the other Brother made up into a champion. Im not saying mine deserved to be a champion but as a puppy was very nice and the wrong person was at the other end of the lead,even though Ive had my breed over twenty years I am not well known. I believe that you have to eat,sleep and live showing to do well I love my dogs anyway wether they win or not and I'm not ambitious any more.Someone said we all take the best dog home and thats what I always beleive.
Kindest regards.

It must be very hard in the numerically strong breeds. with ours being the other way, the novice with a good dog gets their just desserts in the end, and soon becomes well known!

I think my affix is recognised but not me :) trouble is we can only keep a small amout of dogs and once they are here we tend to keep them so time goes on my puppy now is quite promising but she has a lump on her leg which is proving difficult to get rid of,apparantly its equivalent to a spavin in horses where the fluid comes from the joint and builds up,its been drained twice now and still keeps coming back,so she has missed most of her puppy classes.Anyone come accross this before??

Yep, a couple of people have had this with young Sibes. It tends to go away, eventually, but sadly you do miss showing as a youngster :(

bumble--again i have to ask---is what youve written about someone coming to look at your pups and saying shed probably have a litter later on ,you go on to say not my baby---help me out here-is this not what you're saying is ok,--someone who owns a bitch has every right to breed a litter from it-wether theyve shown or not-im confused ???

bumblebeeacres-------meet a breeder thats more than happy to get people in the ring with something that WILL WIN!!! i would never ever set someone off with a dog that i felt hadnt the potential of doing some good winning, if i was unlucky enough to breed something that i considered untypical or unlikely to win,no way would i let it go to be shown -i pride myself on my kennel name. ive sold dogs to newcomers that have taken top honours and i was thrilled for them-equally as pleased as if id shown it myself, ---by the way, ive shown now around 20years- and in the last 6 of them have had 4 litters-i waited watched and learned, :D giving it my very best shot, !!!

Dizzy,
I said that it often happens that show breeders are snobby about new comers, I didn't say always(and I refer to here not there, because I have no experience of there)! I'm glad you're willing to let your good stuff go, but I already saw that with beautiful Berry!
What I meant about the lady and my pup is that I would not let one of my puppies go as a breeder to someone who knows nothing about the breed, and one who has no desire to learn either. A person has a "right" to breed a bitch if the breeder has issued forth papers allowing this. If not than the person is breeching a contract. I also screen people before selling any puppy, and if I don't want to sell to that person it is my decision. In this case, the ignorance of the woman left me nausous. I feel that you can be a reputable breeder (knowledgable and with your breeds best interest to heart) without showing.

Sorry I meant the people at the show, I felt a complete outsider, and having shown my horse for many years to county level I thought I knew what to expect from other competitors as most cases horsey world people are helpful and chatty at shows when I first started people where only to pleased to answer questions on where to go and what to do within a showground and if a horse is injured in anyway there are always people there with offers of help. At the shows in question I asked a lady where to go to put and entry in (bearing in mind this was a local show but run under KC rulees) and she looked like I was not from this planet and walked away (i am nither that ugly or rude in any wayto warrent a response like that) I know not everyone is like that but people kept themselves to themselves and would not have time for a stranger or new comer, and i thought this was a fun pastime! Breeders I have no problem with all I have spoken too very nice and lots of invites to see their dog etc.

Thats unusual on the whole people are friendly at shows you must have been very unlucky,I also used to show horses and its not unusual when judging horses for people to come and ask you afterwards what you did or didnt like about their Horse but its not common in dogs you have to wait for the critique in the dog press.

You can ask a dog judge for their opinion but be prepared to accept their answer and thank them even if you don't like what their opinion of your dog is. It is sometimes hard to accept anothers view of your dog perhaps that is why most don't ask. JH