My next door neighbour died on Wednesday and one of his son's has just arrived home from America for the funeral. Chance doesn't like him at all. He's fine with the rest of the family, just not Douglas.

Today I took Chance out into the street to meet Douglas on neutral territory, but he still growled and backed away from him. He's never done this before with anyone else. Though he has never liked it when Douglas has come to visit before. Douglas was eventually able to stroke Chance, but you could see he wasn't too happy.

We can't think why he doesn't like Douglas, as Douglas loves dogs. His own died last year and he misses him. Can anyone shed a light on this? Or is there any way we can try to overcome this fear?

Douglas is only here for a week, so it's not going to be a major problem keeping Chance away from him, but I'm puzzled.

Well, that's too bad. I guess sometimes dogs just don't like some people. But even though Douglass won't be here for long, it would be nice to show Chance that since you think Douglas is all right, then Chance should losen up. It would be nice to use Douglas as an example for any future situations like that.

What I think I'd do is invite Douglas into your house, (even though that's definitely not neutral territory) and have him sit down for tea. Just go about chatting in a really friendly way and have Douglas offer Chance a treat, even tossing it to him on the floor. And just get him use to Douglas being there. You can even go to Douglas and give him a pat and say, "nice Douglass" in a very baby, sweet voice. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it worked on Lyric whenever he was skeptical of someone which he was more so from time to time when he was younger. If he growls, you can say, "No Chance. This is our friend." You don't have to be cross because maybe Chance is afraid, but you can still use the word "No" in a more calm voice to let him know that he mustn't be aggressive......and at the same time you're easing him.

Carrie

Id agree with all of that, except telling him 'no' for growling.

Growling is a vocalisation, the dog is telling you that he isnt happy, its a warning, and if you display displeasure at the warning, you could stop him from doing it.

However, you will have just removed the warning, and not the reason for it, so if the dog IS still unhappy, in future he wont bother to warn, he will just bite..... which is where you get the old tale   'he bit for no reason' (always annoys me that one).

Just ignore the growling, dont approach the dog, and make sure that there are FUN things going on taht the dog would LOVE to be involved in, like treats and balls n stuff, but he has to quit growling and approach first.
Guest tossing treats towards the dog is great, but only when the dog is NOT growling.

Em

Thanks. I think I might invite Douglas in. Chance alsays welcomes people coming into the house. BOY, does he welcome them. :D :D

I'll let you know if it works.

When we met in the street Douglas tried to give him a treat, but he just didn't want to know. He just turned his head away.

I agree with em with regard to the saying "no" when a dog growls; again this is a brilliant example of how people can inadvertently train one thing when they meant to do something else; sometimes with unfortunate consequences!

As em said, telling a dog off for growling achieves nothing but sends the message that growling itself is not acceptable, not the emotion behind the growling!  Therefore the dog may still feel unhappy, but just not show it :( bad news!

And ignoring the dog and throwing treats without expecting any interaction at all is good, as em says, also only in the absence of growling. 

However, not sure if I would bother if the man is only going to be here for a week!

Never dismiss what your dog is telling you??? if he is not always acting that way.

Good point Corso girl,

I meant to add th at, i actually trust my dog rocks judgement on a person more than my own at times!

Em

Well, I know what you all are saying about the growling. I just don't agree after seeing and experiencing. I'm sure in some instances it applies. I understand what you mean and what you're saying. It's like with people, psychologists will always say to not squash your feelings. You can act like they're not there, but if you don't deal with them, you're in trouble. I know you believe what you have studied.

I have seen though, that letting a dog know that a behavior is unappreciated, even though at first, his emotions are still there, that when he stops the growling, he is able to discover that things aren't so bad after all, and finds out better and quicker that growling or acting, feeling....any of that is not any longer what he feels. (I'm not saying to come down hard on the dog. I said to use the word in a calm manner. The word without the anger behind it, in other words, settle, calm down, you'll be all right, listen to me) They are able to stand back and assess things better when they've settled, even if it's only settling on the outside. You let them know and they believe you. I have never seen more aggression issues than on this board where people are afraid to say no to their dogs. I've seen aggression issues stopped by what I'm saying. Like I say, there are instances, I'm sure where you can't apply that, as in severe, advanced cases.

While he is controlling himself, albeit the underlying emotions may still be there, you are, at the same time doing things that will help him to rid himself of the fear or dislike of the person. You can't very well reach the dog while he is carrying on. It's like a child who is throwing a tantrum. You can't reason with them while they're screaming. They can't hear you. You get them to stop screaming now, but you're telling them in a calm, quiet, but firm way to stop. Then while they're sucking in their breath and trying to collect themselves, you are able to explain something to them....that they may have what they want, but not right now. It will be later...or whatever. You can wait it out, which with a child is ok because they're not likely to bite you. I don't think waiting it out with a dog is a great idea. They're being reinforced that you're ok with their aggression.

So, yes....get to the underlying source and undo or rearrange the emotions that are causing it, but at the same time....simutaneously, get them to settle and listen.

And yes, most definitely don't give treats while the dog is growling, only when he stops.

My advice is not based on theories or books but empirical knowledge.  Again, as we have seen so many times, the intensity and  frequency of an event cannot be determined via the forum therefore one always advises the least confrontational methods that are as non invasive as possible.

I am not "afraid" to say "no" to dogs, I have found it to be unnecessary, unproductive and irrelevant; the word "no" is reserved as an emergency stop signal only; it has nothing to do with "fear" or political correctness but everything to do with my approach to animals which has the emphasis on showing the animal what is "right" or desired behaviour as opposed to what is "wrong" or undesired behaviour.  That is a personal choice which I find ethical, logical and, more importantly, extremely effective especially for unskilled owners/handlers and dogs with a history.

The absence of growling does not necessarily indicate any degree of self control other than that of growling.

Your point about the child having a tantrum is spot on; the dog/child has to be in a position to learn; therefore we demonstrate that tantrum/growling are ineffective and does not achieve the desired ends; the dog/child then devises other strategies which again we can reinforce or not.  Hence why ignoring or removing oneself from this type of attention seeking is extremely effective; if it does not work, neither dogs nor children do something that is pointless in my experience; hence I have never had a problem with tantrums :D 

Waiting out is perfectly acceptable with a dog if it is growling as long as it is not in a position to bite; again, his behaviour is not being reinforced as you do not put the dog in that position in the first place unless it is very carefully managed so that it cannot be self rewarding. 

It's just a different philosophy I guess...or method. I have never had a problem with tantrums in my children either. They knew that wasn't going to get them what they wanted and that I didn't go for such theatrics. Their feelings and wants were acknowledged at a later time when they were calm. It was made known to them that that kind of behavior wasn't acceptable and that we'd deal with their problems in another way.

"The absence of growling does not necessarily indicate any degree of self control other than that of growling."

Spot on. I said something to that effect, that outwardly they'd be controlled, but their feelings may still exist and probably would. I said that while they're outwardly controlled.....that's when you can reach them and help them to adjust their feelings.

My opinion doesn't come from books altogether. It comes from experiencing over many years. Perhaps there is more than one way to deal with something. One may work better in certain instances than another. Like you say, it's impossible to know what's going on over the Internet. And more importantly, if someone doesn't have all the components at their disposal, the ability to read a dog, the familiarity, the judgement to be able to make a decision in each individual episode or case, then failure can occur. And of course, we wouldn't want a bite from a dog.

This sounded like a new thing with this dog and I would want to nip it before it became ingrained and even harder to undo.

I had a dog who snapped at me one time. That was the last time. He became trustworthy and got over whatever it was that caused him to snap. I know what it was, I had my face too close to him for his liking. He soon found out that whether or not he liked it, and whether or not I made the mistake of getting into his personal space, he must control himself, even though, by the same token, I should have respected that space. I told him "no" in no uncertain terms. He soon came to realize that being in his personal space wasn't a bad thing after all. He began to nuzzle and be affectionate in that way too. So, while he was controlling himself, albeit his feelings of being encroached upon were still there, he AT THE SAME TIME was learning because I was showing him....that it was all right, that nothing terrible was going to happen to him. He came to be fine with that sort of thing. He came to that very quickly.

Carrie

Carrie,

It's the order that's important.  First, you identify why the dog is growling.   Next, you eliminate the cause of growling.  If it's fear-based, eliminating the fear should naturally eliminate the growling.  If growling is not fear based you channel the dog's emotional reaction (growling) into a more acceptable behavior.  If the growling continues, then you can teach the dog to be quiet and focus more on the acceptable behavior instead.  If you eliminate the growling before you can fix the cause - then you have created a time bomb that can go off without warning.  Not only that, but you have a dog that may be upset about two things - the reason it growled in the first place, added to by the fact that now it is no longer allowed to growl.

Stacey

Oh boy, it looks like I may have opened a can of worms here.

I agree that growling is unacceptable. I wouldn't have asked for advise if I thought it was. This is the first person Chance has really growled at. Douglas is happy enough to meet Chance half-way. In fact we think we may have found the cause. It comes down to what he can smell. It's something Chance(and most dogs) won't meet on a daily basis. He smells this 'unusual scent' and doesn't like it. Chance is allowing Douglas to come closer before he starts to back off. The growling isn't as bad now, but he is still unsure of the situation.

As I said before, I don't want to push Chance into a situation where he will react, and as Douglas is only here for a week I'm not going to try too hard. BUT we are still going to try to meet on neutral territory in the hope that things will improve.

Sometimes I think dogs can sense things/no things that we don't....

I was at dog class with all 3 of my boston's and not at the same time either one at a time, and they all growled at the one instructure. It was so weird they wouldn't let her near them, Tiva she kept looking for her and every time she seen her she just barked and growled the whole time, T-Bone hid behind me and growled and Junior growled also. Just weird that they all never liked the same lady. I took Junior first for 6 weeks, then T-bone for 6 weeks and then Tiva for 6 weeks. We tried to get them to like her, treating ect and nothing worked. Just something about her I guess, but they did like her son.

A couple of years back a friend of my hubby brought a friend over (hope that made sense) and everytime he went near my children (my hubby's friends friend) Junior started growling at him, he never liked him at all. Then he said your dog is going to bite me and all I said was stay away from the kids cause he's very protective of them. Junior was fine as long as he never went near the kids...Then we found out later that he molested my friends daughter, very sad. I also told my friend about Junior's weird behaviour :(

Not saying that this person is bad or anything, but dogs do sense things as I have found out.

Like I said......I never had a problem or a time bomb, have had dogs who lived to a ripe old age......never had a problem.

I think you're right Dollface. They seem to like some people better than others. I have a guy who I've been seeing occasionally. The first time he came to my house, my Doberman growled and barked viciously when he was driving up the driveway and knocking on the door. (that's his job) Then when I was about to open the door and told Lyric "enough," and he didn't stop, I told him again to zip it and sit!!! (and I mean NOW!!) Then when he did, "Good sit." (praise)Then I opened the door, said, "Hi!" in a very friendly way and the guy came in. Then Lyric was allowed to sniff him. The next minute his little stubby tail was going full throttle and when the guy sat down, Lyric and the other dogs were licking him and snuggling to him. He got a kick out of it and I said these dogs are good judges of character. You know what he said? "I fooled them, just like I fooled you." LOL LOL LOL. I hope he was kidding. Oh my God. LOL.

But, see what I mean? His "feelings" were squelched. He wanted to keep growling and barking. He was worried about the person at the door and getting mixed up whether or not he should keep barking and at first wouldn't hear me. I could have thought, "Oh.....he's just confused as to what his job is. Let's see....let's get to the core of this problem and we'll work on it. Let's give him a toy and see if we can't get him away from the door or a cookie if he stops to catch his breath inbetween barks. Let's lock him up so he can avoid the whole thing until he's heard people coming to the door for a few months. Maybe he'll get use to it.

No.....I told him in no uncertain terms that it was time to stop. (He's encouraged and praised to go ahead and bark and growl as warning but he must stop when I give the command, "enough" whether he feels like it or not, whether his emotions are still intense or not.) He's still at the tail end of the learning of this barking when appropriate and ceasing when told, "enough." He's almost got it down pat.

Anyhow, now every time this guy comes or anyone else for that matter, first there's the warning bark if we're in the house, then a reserved, but gentlemanly greeting which then turns into "let's be friends." If we're already outside, there's usually no barking. He just runs up to the person's vehicle and watches. He must know that since I'm already outside, I already know that there's someone here so he doesn't bark. (not sure, or he's just more concerned while indoors.)

But this dog doesn't seem to have a mean bone in his body. He just figures he has a job to do and that is to bark and let me know and stand his ground if something goes wrong. He has learned the difference between normal, friendly strangers, the delivery or repair men....and a real burgler. He's demonstrated many times a clear difference in his reactions. He's no time bomb. He's learning how to conduct himself the way his Mom or "alpha" is expecting him to and he's rising to the occasion every time, just like all my dogs have.  He's been well socialized and he's well adjusted, stable and wonderful.

So, you can keep advising people your way, to ignore, to distract, to give it a toy, to let it go, to find out the root of the problem, see a dog therapist, tippy toe around them, or whatever... and they can keep writing on this message board about their aggressive dogs. (never saw so many as on here)

Carrie

There is a difference here though Carrie.

Your dog has been taught to bark and growl when people knock at the door.

Personally i wouldnt do this, but its your choice (i hope you never need any emergency services to let themselves into your house if you cant tell him not to do that!!!!).... but the thing is, your dog , as you say, as the 'job' of growling and barking at the door, so its unlikely he feels particularly fearful of whoever is out there.

Growling in a dog who is doing it through FEAR shouldnt be reprimanded, in my opinion,EVER.

My dogs, Rocky and Abby both growl at me..... abby does a play bow and growls, Rocky growls because he wants my attention and i cant stand him barking (very high pitched and yappy, when he is in his 'i want you to do xxx for me and NOW' mood)... i can and will tell both NO for that, because i know underneath there is no fear.

Em

A Doberman does not need to be taught to growl and bark at the door or do any manner of protection work. They do this by their nature. In fact, they should not be taught anything actively other than with the Schutzhund sport. He is not corrected for growling and barking and it's made known to him that that is fine....it's his job to be a personal protection dog. Dobermans (and Lyric is no exception)  also has the uncanny ability to discern between a stranger who has business here and one who does not. He has, as I mentioned demonstrated this uncanny ability on more than one occasion. This is what a well bred, socialized, well bonded with it's family and trained Doberman is known as the premier personal protection AND family dog. They do have abilities that surpass our way of thinking. I'm constantly asking myself, "How does he know that?????" Obviously I'm doing something right to have such a fantastic bunch of dogs, especially this Doberman who is a lot of dog for some people.

I agree. If a dog is frightened, it should not be reprimanded. I never said anything about reprimanding a fearful dog. At least I hope I didn't. In fact, I've said on another post or thread when someone said they had a frightened dog, specifially not to be harsh. When I say "no" to a dog, it is not necessarily a reprimand. (which I explained. I don't think people even read what I write...probably too long...sorry)  No means to stop something, but if a soft, calming tone is used, such as with the example, it merely means what I already wrote and am not going to keep repeating again....."you can stop and everything is all right." Then we praise and do things to get the dog more comfortable once it has calmed. For me....my language with my dogs....some words have more than one meaning by their tone. I can say no to my dogs and they don't feel scolded at all. I say it sometimes like baby talk...."no no, let's not go there." They stop doing what they're doing, but don't react at all in any other way, not like they've been scolded. Not at all. I guess it's hard over the Internet to describe everything. All I know is that my dogs are very happy, playful, well mannered and have a great life....always have. They have clear direction, no question about what they're doing ever. Their demenor is that of happy, bouncy, waggy dogs who get the best of everything, enviornment, affection, play etc. And I know that I am good and kind to my dogs and they are lucky to have me and I'm lucky to have them.

The example with my Doberman where I tell him ENOUGH is with a dog who is unafraid. I don't say "No" because I don't want him to never bark that way. I say enough because he needs to stop when I say to. He will learn when to stop much better as he matures and has more experience. He's showing leaps and bounds there.

I spent a year, six or 8 hours a day studying about training and about Dobermans in particular and many aspects regarding dogs. I studied pedigrees and talked to many, many breeders. I wanted to be sure this was the dog for me and how to find a reputable breeder and everything I could find out. It took a long time to find my puppy after being on waiting lists through more than one litter.

I've talked extesively with my breeder and my dog's sire's breeder who is a  renoun judge and Doberman breeder for 45 years, has the top Doberman in the coutry many times over, (Repo Man) who just won top breeder of the year award for not only Dobermans, but the working group. She knows Dobermans, their temperament, the best way to handle them. These dogs need firm, but kind handling. There's a differnce between harsh and firm, kind and lenient. If anyone is an extremist either way, they can be trouble.

So, with my years with dogs, my record of having great, happy, well mannered dogs with no aggression, no problems at all, I think that speaks for itself.

You can use your methods and I'm sure they're good ones. I have no guess work if I go by my history with dogs or horses. I too see what works for me. So, there's no argument here. As with anything, there are different methods and philolophies. We can put in what we think and try and help people with problems the best we know how and they can see what works best for them. I answer posts in order to tell people who are asking, what has worked for me over the years. They can read all the posts and decide what fits them. I don't write on here to constantly get into a debate. What is a message board for? Isn't it primarily to answer posts or share stories? Or is it really for debate?

Oh, and I too have dogs that growl at me. I know their body language exceedingly well. They growl when they're "talking" to me or being silly/playful, rears up in the air and wagging. I growl back and it's all in play. I never reprimand them for being playful in that way. If I tire of the noise, which I never do...it's too funny and cute, I'll just walk away and they'll do something else.

Carrie

I just was thinking....about other times when I say "no" to my dogs where it's not a reprimand in the slightest. If I get my Dobe too excited which I try to avoid for the most part, but he's just so dang fun and when I get excited about some accomplishment of his, maybe something we've been working on for a long time, I sometimes leap around whoopin' and hollerin' and make a party. Well, sometimes he gets wound up too much and leaps up on me, so I say "nooooooooooeewww" starting on high C and going down the scale an octive but at the same time I'm still playing or running. He stops leaping but keeps on having fun, grabs a stick or just runs around....doesn't think he's been reprimanded at all. But he heard the word "no" and figures, (I think), "Oh, better not jump up anymore, but we still get to play." There's no hardness at all in the tone....doesn't require it.

Or if he's chewing on something I don't want him to have that he's snuck by me, I'll take it away, say "no" (can't have that) "but here....have this instead", a chew toy. I'm not scolding him. My tone is not angry at all. It's just matter of fact, No, you can't chew on that, but you can on this. He does NOT look reprimanded. He then gets praised for chewing the toy. There are few times where something requires reprimanding. Showing the dog what you want and don't want is not necessarily reprimanding. It's educating.

So it works both ways. The word's meaning itself and the tone. If he does something serious, like nips at my little dog, even though he's playing (he can get too excited and rough sometimes) he'll get told, "No bite!!" quite sternly/seriously. He needs to know to stop at once, whatever his emotions are. He could hurt the little dog with one snap. Plus we don't want him to think it's Ok to nip even in play as it could come from another context at a later time. He's pretty good though about that now.

All the puppy things that are obnoxious to us, he has come through very easily and quickly. There have not been any lasting problems in his behavior that are not coinciding with normalcy (sp?) with his age and breed. And his temperament is fantastic, happy, playful, confident, not afraid of anything and obedient.

My girl Chihuahua licks a lot....a submissive gesture. She's always been tending toward that trait. When I want her to stop licking, I can't scold her...She'd just lick more. So, I say in a baby talk/playful voice, "enough...no more kisses." Kind of boistrous, but friendly/silly. She stops, at least for a while but does not feel like she's been reprimanded. She just gets a coy look like, "ok...ok....but I'm still going to reserve the right to kiss you later." LOL....a little spoiled, that one. I must admit.



Carrie

The thing here is that Chance is normally a well natured dog. He is, after all, a gundog breed that was bred to be a family member too. If I thought it was a serious problem, and he was growling/barking at everyone he met then I wouldn't have asked for advice in the way I did. He is shown, and has done quite well. He has also shown he loves people. Just ask anyone who has come to visit. He usually flattens them with hugs and kisses. :D

His act seems to be all bluff. Douglas was chatting over the fence today and Chance 'pretended' he didn't see him. When he did finally decide to 'speak' you could actually see from his posture that he didn't really mean it. We ignored him and he went away, back into the house. I'm not going to push him into any situation because Douglas is only here for a few more days, but I do now feel that if he was going to stay longer we would have been able to show Chance that everything is ok. After all, this 'strange man' is in a garden he has no right to be in. Or at least that's the way I think Chance sees it. Douglas has been able to stroke him now when not in the garden, even though it's only for a few seconds. Chance is just showing all symptoms of being unsure now, rather than fearful. I think this is because I've shown him that it's ok to say hello. As have the other dogs Inthe household.

I'm now wondering if it's just an 'age' thing. He's not yet 2 years old and has been the 'alpha male' all this time. Not that I'm suggesting Douglas is trying to take over that position He isn't :) But he is realising that I'm the boss, and he has to pay heed to my decisions. If I want to speak to someone then I'll speak to them. :) No matter what he 'says' ;)