CAN ANYONE HELP LOCATE A BREEDER OF IRISH BLACK AND TAN TERRIERS PLEASE?

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED

SUE HUMAN
NEWMARKET
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01353 720401

EJLNCFC@AOL.COM

Got me their guest, is it a cross between a English Toy Terrier (Black & Tan) and an Irish Terrier?

It is a breed Jackie, not unlike a JRT.  I think somebody on Dogdata has one.
Dawn.

Can't find a reference to it in any of my books does it have another name? Have not looked on the web because you get al sorts of nonsense on there, anyone can cross a dog and then write about it as if it were a breed, but even Dr Bruce Fogle's book does not mention this one and that book seems to put crosses in that are only producing a first crosses and calls them 'breeds'

Do know the Manchester and the English Toy, both of which are called Black & Tan but not the Irish, perhaps you can find out more for me and the guest as I can't help at all and assumed it must be a cross of some sort.

Have just looked on the web and it appears that they are Jack Russels that happen to be Black & Tan, so that may be the guest would be best to look in one of the sporting type papers or farming publications, from the photos it was difficult to say if they are the short or long legged type but may be they come as both. They could even be a miss-marked Parsons but I don't know that, anyway guest from the info I have found it does appear only to be the colour that makes them any different to any other Jack Russel type terrier, so why the Irish I have know idea, unless it was in that country that they first started to try to breed for that colour in stead of the more normal white based colour.

PS - does seem to be only one kennels that are breeding or suggesting that they are a breed but I have not done a full search.

Shorter legged than the Parson, but certainly a sporting Terrier.  "Lord Oaksey" of horse racing fame has some too, and I believe breeds them.  This is the one I know, a pic fom my site.
http://www.emblehope.co.uk/images/six_b.jpg

I think you will find that the Irish Black & Tan Terrier is a cross breeding between a lancashire heeler & JRT of some description. They also cross breed dachshund to JRT types purely for colouration.

That is the sort of feeling I got, a sporting terrier rather than a pure breed, and the sporting papers would be the place to look for one, still wonder why Irish :)

Hi Anginelly.
Not sure about the crossbreeding bit!  genuine enthusiasts will not agree.
Dawn.

I think they are a 'breed ' I know someone who has one but I think all the litter has gone -If you want to mail me Guest I'll pass your e-mail on ;)

Hi Dawn B,
              I am sorry but the Irish Black & Tan is NOT a breed it is a definate crossbreed & the irish are pumping them out by the load to sell to unsuspecting people at mega prices as a 'rare breed' when in fact they are just a mongrel.
DNA testing can prove it.
If the person wants a black & tan small dog they should go for a breed that has a known ancestory & from a reputable breeder rather than buy something that is bred from God knows What!

Do you mean mongrel in the sense of un KC registered or mongrel in the sense that two Irish Black and Tan Terriers crossed together will not give you IBTT puppies, but rather an unpredictable (looks wise) mix of pups?

Just curious, I know nothing about them :)

I think, in this case, 'mongrel' is meant in it's correct meaning - that the pups have more than 2 recognised breeds in their immediate ancestry.
:)

Jack Russells have been bred by sporting people for years for rating etc. but they are not a recognised bred and differ a good deal due to the fact that they are frequently crossed to other terrier and terrier types to suit the breeders needs, as far as I can make out the B & T is just a variation on the more usual coloured Jack Russell but I would think it would still do the same job as the short legged type of Jack only problem would be if they went to ground they would be harder to locate due to they unsuitable colour. Still wonder why the Irish. :)

They are no more a mongrel than the Patterdale, Fell or working Lakie.  20yrs ago, my brother in law had 4 of them, I have only recently learned of this, I would love pics of them but circumstances now mean I am unable to.  As I said there are several breeders around, and many more in Ireland.  For a "mongrel" all the ones I have seen certainly conform to a "type", this breed is no "five minute wonder" but a long established breed built on a working foundation.
Dawn.

Dawn you seem to know all about them so PLEASE PLEASE tell me why Irish??????????????? And also why the colour, what is the advantage over the more usual white base colour.

From what I understand Jackie, the breed originated in Ireland and was always black and tan.  Don't know why black and tan, maybe it was to set them apart from the Russell at the time which was and is predominantley white.
Dawn.

From what I have managed to find out they are Jack Russel type but have been bred to produce this B & T colour, and wondered why as the JR, like most of the sporting terriers was and is bred to suit a particular need of the breeder or area, so I am wondering why the dark colour, or is it another case of selling a puppy for an inflated price.

Wouldn't of thought so Jackie, all those years ago dogs were not produced to supply a pet market as they are today.
Dawn.

Don't think that the B&T Jack Russel has been going very long and it would appear it is only coming from one sorce. Would guess before that a B&T would have been considered to be the wrong colour and have been culled.

Mind you none of this answers the guests question and perhaps we should ask them why they need a B&T Jack Russel and perhaps we will then know what they are used for. :)

Mmmmm, original poster has not appeared again have they???
Dawn.

Dawn B i do not know where you get the idea from that these dogs are not a crossbreed or 5 minute wonder!
I can tell you that i am a specialist breeder of short leg JRTs with the oldest documented pedigree line of shorts in the world(so i have been informed) our dogs go back to 1950 with no crossing out to other breeds & we have never once produced a complete black & tan JRT with markings like a Rottweiller!
These dogs that are being sold are not TRUE TO TYPE & neither do they breed true, they have all sorts of colours & sizes cropping up from them, pray god tell me where you get a fawn/red/blue/black JRT from i don't think so. They are crossbreeding purposely for the 'money market' thus why most are bred in Ireland where they have no laws to stop them & as the Irish government said 'puppy farming is revenue for ireland'.
They put Irish in front of the name because that is exactly what they are Irish bred mutts!
Do you realise they are swindling people of £1000-£2000 per puppy? & thats not breeding for profit is it not?

Some of are in this for the long run to improve the breed & have it finally recognized by the english KC but others unfortunately don't have the breeds interest at heart & i for one have refused to sell a dog to anyone who would cross my dogs with such a mixture.

Hi Dawn

I have been told on several occasions that my dog breed doesnt conform to type which we all know that they do. I was of the understanding that the irish B&T was a working breed from the manchester terrier and the english terrier etc from small terriers originally bred for ratting, and as far as the Irish go working breeds need to get a job done size colour etc doesnt matter just as much to an Irish working dog.
Hello Angienelly i cant comment on the JRT except to say that most (not all) I have seen are aggressive, overweight, spoilt rotten. untrained, except to use the remote control when they are sitting on the couch with their slippers, tea, buiscuts, I am probably being unfair to the breed as its the owners who allow this.
As for some that strive to get their breeds recognised by the English KC, there are just as many of us that couldnt give a hoot if our breed is recognised by the English KC. This doesnt mean I dont like KC breeds I do like many of them. It just dont matter to me whether mine are recognised or not. I dont gain anything whether they are or not.
It also seems to me that its the recognised breeds that are being bred relentlessly by puppy farmers in Eire and over here also. This is eventually going to result in KC registered breeds being undesirable. I know my dogs historys going back at least 50 years so I have peace of mind and dont need paperwork to prove it to me.
Regards Mick

there is A FYI thread running from someone who has the black and tan terriers -they are a breed and not cross bred mutts ;) Having seen a litter of them -they do breed true ,all uniform in colour, size  and markings

Guest post:

Having been told of the thread on IB&T's currently running in the Visitors Forum I would like to comment.
I have Irish Black & Tan Terriers and I can assure people the ARE a breed - they are not a designer cross like Labradoodles, Cockapoo's etc - they breed true. They are incredibly intelligent, sweet, loving dogs with even tempers.
They have sometimes been mistaken in the past by people for shorty JRT's (which they resemble in confirmation) and sadly the lines have been crossed. However, to be a JRT a dog must be at least 50% white so this rules them out as JRT's.
Mrs Peggy Grayson actually wrote an article about them in one of the weekly dog papers in May 2002 and I know at least 4 other people who breed them as Irish Black & Tan Terriers (only 1 of whom is in Ireland).
I hope this is allowed to be posted in the visitors forum by Admin and that I have maybe clarified a few points that were puzzling forum members. anyone wishing to see pictures can email me at nicky@iwarwick.freeserve.co.uk and I will gladly send them some.
Thank you,
Nicky Warwick

Well not really, what are they, what is the history, all I can find is that they are a B & T version of the JRT. Happy to accept that they are a breed in their own right and not just a branch of miss-marked JRT.s but I would like to know more about them and the history and why no one seems to mention them as being a breed of terrier, sporting or otherwise. Unfortunately did not read PG's article and if she explained what and why perhaps someone who has it can send me a copy.

Jackie -Mail Nicky -I'm sure she'd be only too happy to help ;)

Nikki mailed me and she said that was what hers was and that she had bred it to another B&T and the bitch had had a litter, but she did not give me any information and I seem to remember that at one time she did not know what the dog was, so I don't think she would be able to help, but I could be wrong she may have been finding out since we last spoke about it.

I am passed argueing the point but Irish Black & Tans are being sold as JRT's this is false advertising IMO.
If they were/are a breed then why no info about them? As far as i am aware & will stick to they are a blend of different breeds within the last 3 generations.

Not arguing with you at all, but all the information I can find calls them B & T Jacks Russells, it does not matter really, I was only interested if they were a long established breed which it would appear they are not. Lets face it any smallish white based terrier has for years been called a JR even if they are not and I would think this little dog is just an extention of that.