My 20 week old afghan male pup, Zorro, has always been quite vocal, barking a lot during play etc, which is ok.
However, he is strong willed and wants his own way a lot of the time...Of course I dont let him, but when i dont comply to his every whim, he barks. I try and stop this when I am with him, with moderate success, but the nights are the worst. He started off sleeping crated in my room, and has progressed to a bed in my room (my 2 year old bitch is there too). He barks if he needs to go out for a wee. Thats great of course, but he is generally very wakeful at night and barks not only for a wee, but just because he fancies getting up and changing room. I have tried leaving him to sleep in the kitchen, either alone or with Delilah, and he is very happy with either...but in the night he again wants to change room, so after a few hours he barks (very loudly). If i ignore him he keeps on barking, if i get up and see to him he just changes room every hour or so! I think he needs no sleep! I must emphasise that he is not in any distress to cause him to bark....he is not whining, shaking etc, he is extremely well balanced and shows no signs of seperation anxiety, he is just being demanding. He is ready for action at 4 30 am every day and will not go back to bed....if i put him outside to play...you guessed it, he barks cos he wants me and delilah to play too, well we want and need to sleep! He gets daily walks as far as he is allowed for his age, he gets obedience classes mondays, ringcraft on thursdays, training practice in short bursts daily at home,we go out and about visiting, so he is getting plenty of mental stimulation. I can cope with him being awake when I am asleep, but I have to stop this incessant barking, for th sake of my sanity and for the sake of the neighbours...i cant risk a court case....and i cant realistically expect them to put up with this noise. Ignoring him has no effect. bizzarely he does NOT bark if im not home, confirmed by said neighbours.
How can I stop him barking?  Any thoughts on those aboistop collars?
Thankyou, From a very sleepless Cathy, Delilah and Zorro the horrible

At 20 weeks it may be a bit much to expect him to not need to go out during the night.  However, there are ways of doing this that limit the level of arrousal you and the dog experience - keep the lighting low, dont' speak to the dog, maybe take him out on a lead so you don't have to call him in. settle him on his bed with a chew or stuffed kong, and leave............  By leaving him to bark and then getting up he is learning that if he really really wants you - all he has to do is keep on barking :(  This makes it even harder to break the habit......

It may also be worth looking at his diet to see if there are any parts of it that may be contributing to a form of hyperactivity......

digger i am afraid you did not read my post correctly.....i most certainly did not say I am  asking or expecting him to go thru the night without a wee. i do not leave him barking for a wee....On the contrary i WANT him to tell me when he needs out.i always get up, take him out when he needs to go.  he gets a wee at about 11 30 before i go to bed, and usually needs to go again at 3. I take him then, and he will sometimes go back  to sleep.
My problem is that he wakes up and barks at other times when he cannot possibly want or need another wee...sometimes 6 or 7 times a night. from his behaviour he just wants to play, as if I take him in the garden on lead he doesnt pee. Sometimes he has decided he would like to sleep in the kitchen, so i let him, but he will bark again as little as one hour later!!!!
I keep the lights off, and even have blackout curtains, but he still wants to get up and stay up at 4 30 and it is getting progressively earlier, i just wish he would do it quietly :)
I have had only 2 alternatives:

1. to get up to him immediately 6 or 7 times a night,on his demand, immediately he barks
2. to leave him bark a bit and see if he gets fed up and goes back to sleep
Which do you think is the best?

I am afraid that it is difficult to choose between the two, as frankly i thought maybe wrongly that if i got up to him instantly  every time he barked that he may do it even more (attention seeking). There is not an option of leaving barking all night because  he may really need a wee, and the noise is really intolerable. He does bark a lot in the day as well, for attention e.g. if I am paying attention to delilah, and he barks at delilah if she is sleeping, to get her to get up and play with him.
Diet could be an issue i suppose....he is on pedigree puppy complete, which he really likes, and was on it when he came from the breeder. Does anyone know if this food has a record of causing hyperactivity?

Is your dog getting enough exercise during the day....besides just playing? If it were me, around 4 or 5 o'clock I'd take him for a really good 45 minute off leash run/walk...whatever. Wait an hour or so before feeding him his dinner. Then, before bed a short walk. You could give him a little snack of some turkey meat....makes for sleepiness sometimes. I'd also go back to using a crate and tell him "HUSH!" sternly if he starts barking. But only once, then ignore the rest of the time. You don't want to give him attention...yes, but maybe he needs to know that you are very displeased with the barking. Maybe he just needs to get really tired out. He may be able to go through the night without peeing if he goes to bed late.....11:00 and gets up early....5 or 6. Then if he can, he may get out of the habit of getting up, going back, getting up, moving, doing this, doing that, barking......My pups could go through the night by that age, albeit a short night. Good luck. Let us know how things go.

Carrie

Thankyou for your advice carrie....he does get exercise during the day.He gets his walk about 7 pm. however as many people on this board will confirm, the maximum exercise he is allowed in one go is 25 mins...5 mins per month of age. 45 mins would be not a good idea for any pup of his age. I will however take your advice and take him a walk just prior to bedtime at about 11.  i havent tried this before as it is not really safe for a woman on her own in this area, but i am desperate now and i will have to risk it.
I shall also try going back to a crate. previously his crate has been in my room upstairs,  but thats not possible since he got this noisy....i shall move it down to the kitchen. I shall set my alarm 3 hourly to take him for wees, whether he is awake or not, to try and  get him out of any need to bark at all. Hopefully in the kitchen he will not disturb the neighbours quite as much.
I pray that it works soon .....

When my bedli was a pup I also fed pedigree puppy complete and he was a complete lunatic really I'm not joking it was excessive even for a bedli :(  So I changed his food to one with fewer colourings, and less protein.  This worked and the effect could be seen even after only a few days.  These days I feed Burns or James Welbeloved (depending on where I'm buying from)and he has a more normal level of activity.  His training went really well after that and he has proved to be a very quick learner.  Don't know if changing your pups diet would make a difference on its own but it could be worth a try in addition to the suggestions above regarding training etc.  Hope this helps some.

Regards
Dill

My lurcher can be very demanding at times but only during the day I might add.  One thing that worked for me was every time he barked or whinged specifically to get me to come back to him or for attention, I would walk back into the room, usually the kitchen where he had been left, with the nail clippers in my hand and cut a nail and then leave again.  He absolutely hates having his nails cut although of course he will tolerate it but he would NEVER actually ask me to do it for him. ;)  So every time he barked I pretended to misunderstand him and said to him "Of course I'll cut your nails if you want me to, just the one for now though cos I'm busy. :D " You could almost see him thinking "No, you stupid woman that isn't what I meant"  Anyway the long and the short of it is that he no longer does it AND he is much better about having his nails cut - to boot.  Perhaps you could think of something similar.  My Afghan for example has always hated having her front legs groomed so although she is never any trouble, if she was to attention seek perhaps she would get the comb on her front legs for half a minute or so.  A pain to have to do this during the night but it seems you are having to get up anyway.

I would also definately change his diet.  Naturediet and Burns are always being recommended here.  I feed mine on Naturediet.

And I would not let him rest during the day or evening too much or did you say he doesn't?  Struth - my Afghan sleeps for England.  Try to play games that you can start and you can finish so that you can find his on/off switch.

Sally

Hi Cath, I know what 'they say' about 5 mins per month of age and I know I may cause controversy - BUT, Lana was enjoying active walks at a fairly young age!  I'm not saying an all day ramble   But I personally feel that the overexercise stuff can be a bit over the top - and dare I say the problems that some breeds experience through over exercise at a young age do not stretch to all?!  I must stress that I am not recommending over exercise but I dont mind admitting that at 5 months we were playing ball games, playing with other young dog's, running and chasing.  We would also do some trick training as well as basic obedience stuff, as she would find mental stimulation fairly tiring.  At the mo, we walk for half an hour first thing am - then go somewhere in the car pm for a nice forest walk which can last between 45mins-1 hour (again includes playing ball and chase with her friends) - she is now 9 months.  She never sits down and refuses to walk or appears over tired on walks, when we get home she doesn't sleep straight away and after dinner she will pester me for more play, we also do a bit of training and she will have her first nap at about 10pm.  She then wakes at 11pm goes out for a wee and bed until morning (6:30am)  According to the theory Lana should only have 45 mins a day - well sorry but she would be scaling the walls and giving me grief!  But this is just my opinion!  Diet is a serious consideration, I know of a once hyper X-Breed who was fed on Bakers, have you seen the sugar content of that food?  It must be like giving kids 'E' numbers - but again I aint no feeding expert!!!
Sarah
We are fed on James Wellbeloved and she does great on it!

Rozzer, I agree....never saw more paranoid people than here. LOL. I've had lots of large breed dogs in my time, GSDs included and never had a problem. I agree that over doing is not good and that violent, forced, extremely long exercise at the same gait is not good at all. (ie: jogging for 5 miles with a dog in tow or bicycling dragging a dog along) They can't stop or sniff or change from a trot to a canter to a walk, change direction etc. I've been doing 40 - 45 minutes since Lyric was about 4.5 or 5 months. That's off leash where he can change his pace or do whatever he wants. Now sometimes we go for 50 - 60 minutes in the woods where he is sometimes jumping over logs that are on the ground etc. He rip roars all over the place up and down hills in the woods a little bit and has a great time. I wouldn't take that away from him for the world. Like I said, never had a dog with hip dysplasia or any bone problems in all my years. So, while it's good to be careful and not excessive, I think some of this is over the top too.

I also described what kind of exercise he gets to my vet and breeder because I was wanting to be careful and they thought it sounded fine.

Carrie

Thanks for your advice carrie and sarah.
On the subject of overexercise, I appreciate what you say about longer walks , But i am afraid I am not happy to increase his walking too much.
Not only do I want to follow the advice ofthe breeder (who part owns him), and my vet, as a physiotherapist myself I see and understand the consequences of overexercise on young people, whose bony development is incomplete. I have no reason to think that it will be different in dogs, so I am afraid I cannot be persuaded to take the risk.

( not only that, but if i did he would get fitter and fitter, and i would have to go further and further to tire him out!  :) )

He gets two 25 minute sessions a day, on his long lead.  Delilah goes further.  I understand that you are doing it with Lana, and you have seen no ill effects, but its too early to see any consequences.

On the basis that he lives an already very active life without getting tired, I think that I will definitely be changing the food, as he certainly seems extremely hyper....over and above all the other pups i have had.
I shall also consider alternative remedies for sleeplessness...does aromatherapy work in dogs?

I agree with you, pinklilies -  surely this is the reason that children are forbidden to do weight-training and long-distance running? Until their skeleton is fully developed, excess muscle development is likely to distort and damage the growing bones. Get the skeleton fully formed first, then build the muscle.

And yes, aromatherapy is reputed to work, though not necessarily in the same way as it does with people! But if you burn lavender to make you calmer, it must surely rub off on the dog ...

I'm not trying to promote exessive exercise at a young age, but I dont think that children and pups are comparible in this instance.  We are all physically adapted to do the job we were born for.  Foals can run almost immediately, puppy's play and learn social/hunting skills - children dont lift weights because they physically couldn't do it!  I was doing PE and/or play time at nursery/primary age as do many children.  At 27 I have stayed fit and developed and can now run marathons - You still have to go through the development stage and you dont build muscle by sitting on your rear :)  Cath, I respect the way that you rear your pup - I may be new to afghans but not to dog ownership and I feel that my dog is developing well mentally and physically.  I'm afraid I believe that there are too many paranoid owners out there (not on this thread, may I add :)) who dont even let their pup's engage in play at a young age...No wonder there are so many dog's with issue's, and weight problems!
Sarah

Well, I think the two 25 minute walks is better. I just can't do that because of my situation. But, Lyric is not doing more than I've done with dogs in the past. Also, I checked into a sports medicine doctor for dogs through some Doberman people (can you believe they have those now?) and as far as jumping, as long as it's not higher than the elbow and not excessive, that's ok too. But yes, one should follow the breeder's and vet's advice to be sure. I like to always check in about that also. And yes, damage wouldn't show up yet. That I know, as I've also been in the medical field as well. So, good luck and don't worry too much.

Carrie

My lurcher (bedlington x whippet amongst other things) was a PAIN IN THE ASS at night.

Wouldnt sleep downstairs, wanted to PLAY PLAY PLAY aalllll night!

Can i suggest... either a short walk, or possibly better, some problem solving games and training before bed, tire the mind out, as it sounds like your pup has a very active one!

If you know the pup needs out at about 3am, set your alarm for a few minutes before, and get up before he goes. Its great that he wakes you to let you know, but he seems to be applying this to 'wake mum when i want anything'.

Alternatively, you have to be bloody minded. If bark means i need to pee, take him on a lead to pee. If he doesnt pee, straight back to bed. The ONLY thing you do if he wakes you up, is take him out, wait a few minutes, and back in. No talking, no fussing, minimum necessary interaction.

He SHOULD get the idea eventually (did take a couple of weeks for Dill and i was a VERY grumpy sleep deprived Em at the time!) that barking at night gets him out and nothing else, no fun, no sleepy somewhere else, no games or food, just out.

Em

well last night took both dogs for a brisk walk at about 8 30, then when we got in i played with them and trained them. zorro dozed off in the living room at about 10 30, so i took him for a wee, then put him in his crate in my room.I went to bed too.  he lay down and went to sleep for 15 mins then barked to get up. I took him out, thinking he may need a poo, but he wanted a drink, which i let him have. took him back up, and he started barking. I said NO firmly, and sqirted a tiny bit of diluted lemon spray toward him ...after 3 sets of barks he decided he didnt like the lemon spray and went to sleep :)     I set my alarm for 2 30, and woke him from his sleep to take him for a wee.....he was so disorientated by this that he went straight back in his crate and slept till 6 15 :)

I am going to try to make this into a routine, and I am going to change his food, as this may be a problem for him.
will keep you informed, but at least i have had one good nights sleep!

Cathy, Delilah and Zorro

Hi Cathy,
We have always advised changing the diet to a lower protein one and less colourants. If unsure then, of vitamins, you can always add a supplement if needed. But you do have to watch that you don't overdo vitamins. Also as you have found out, brain work will help before bed time. You could also try making the bed warmer as the heat might get him to sleep more. Good Luck.:0) It's just like having a baby again.:0)

Well, Miss tough as nails here has to say that I think lemon spray is not a nice thing to do and could really irritate and damage your dog's mucous membranes in his eyes and nose. If you need to spray something at all, please just use plain water. I think you don't need to do that though with this. This is not a serious thing. He'll get used to being alone to sleep soon enough. He IS just a baby. I think one time, "no.....go back to sleep" and ignoring the rest of the time is sufficient. It always worked for me sooner or later, some dogs are more secure than others and you don't want to frighten them. I know it's frusterating but that's the way it is at first.

Also, I never have awakened a pup to go out to wee. I think it's better to hope he'll go through the night and not develop a routine of getting up. But that's up to you of course. If they absolutely must, they'll let you know, but soon he'll sleep through the night if you put him to bed late and get up early.

Carrie

LOLOLOLOL
"I think one time, "no.....go back to sleep" and ignoring the rest of the time is sufficient. It always worked for me sooner or later, some dogs are more secure than others and you don't want to frighten them. I know it's frusterating but that's the way it is at first."

Carrie if telling him once not to do it, then ignoring him, actually  worked, dont you think i would be doing it??
I am not a stupid person, and I have already tried saying "NO". as i said in my first post , if i just ignore him he just keeps on barking, for hours. this has been going on for months, so i think it is clear that it will not stop without doing something else. and for your clarification as i also said in my post he is not alone....he is doing it while he is in my room with me. And i DO put him to bed late and he STILL gets up at 4 . I have found that "HOPING" has not been a very effective method of training him thus far.

It is no longer possible to just keep ignoring it on the basis that when ignored he barks for many hours....after 2 months of this racket I am in real danger of losing my job due to getting an average 3 hours sleep a night, and i am in very real danger of prosecution by the council for noise nuisance  already had the letters and warnings from them.
So you will have to bear with me that "NO" doesnt work, and "HOPING"  is no longer good enough. If I dont get him to stop the court could order me to get rid of him....so it is in his best interest to take more firm measures than ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

Sorry Pinklilies.....I read the original post and by the time I read all the posts, sometimes I forget some of the details...like how it's been going on for so long. You DO have a stubborn little pup don't you. Well....this is terrible....your not getting enough sleep. Gee wiz. I don't know what you can do. That's really weird how he doesn't settle down after all this time. I think my latest pup, Lyric, the Dobe only whined for like one or two nights. Then he slept through the night from about 11:00 till 5:00 or something like that. You have tried about everything haven't you. Well....how about some cough syrup? Just kidding.

I don't know anything about those anti bark collars, but you might have to check into some of those. I think after months of 3 hours of sleep, I'd resort to try something like that if nothing esle has worked.

I'm really sorry I didn't make sense in my last post on account of coming back to it without it fresh in my mind. And I'm sorry you're having this stress. I wish you the best. Hopefully you can find out something about those collars online.

Carrie

Well things seem to be improving......He has learnt not to keep barking unneccesarily, thanks to the dilute lemon...he really doesnt like the smell! Having initially used the lemon in conjunction with the word "no" , he now responds to "no" without the lemon on most occasions. i am glad I tried it.
Waking him up from a sleep to wee seems to be better than leaving him to wake when he is bursting. If i leave him that long he is so awake that he wont go back,, by waking him he remains quite sleepy, and goes back without griping.. gradually I will leave the time i wake him a bit later, till he can do the whole night.
I have also adressed the general "attitude" issue. He has been generally quite belligerent and disobeying me, running off, and I have let him get away with it a bit too often.  ....I give him his morning feed in a bowl as usual, but Instead of giving him his evening   meal in a bowl, he has it from my pocket, as rewards. It seems to have focussed him a bit, as he has to really earn his supper by good behaviour. Previously he was taking advantage a bit, and doing what he fancied. he is starting to be a bit more responsive to me, and we are getting on a lot better :)