Hello, I have recently been posting about my 14 month old Basset, Brody, starting to wee in the house when I leave for work. Unfortunately, I also have a problem with getting him to listen :). I enrolled him in puppy classes about 6 months ago for the sit, lie down, stay commands, which he had to a T (of course he was getting bribed with treats ha ha). My problem is he will only do it when he chooses now, along with pulling on the lead, jumping up at people (constantly), and other things. I know it is up to me to take 'charge' so to speak, I just dont know where to start. It is quite stressful, as I know he has it in him to be a very obedient and pleasant dog (he is so cute, just a bit too silly sometimes:)). My friend recommended booking Jan Fennell (or staff) for a consultation as I really need to take action before it becomes more and more of a habit. My question is, is she as effective as I have heard. Has anyone had, or know anyone, who has dealt with her. I am really interested in pursuing this, but my husband has doubts. Any help would be appreciated.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/list_trainers.asp

THe above link will put you in touch with members of the APDT all over the country so there should be a trainer near you :)  They use kind, effective and fair techniques and many are clicker trainers.

What you need to do is follow a method of training so that the dog DOES choose to do the things you want which is extremely probable using this technique.  I reckon if it is good enough for Mary Ray................... :D

Food is used in clicker training as reinforcement and you will be shown the difference between a bribe, a lure and a reward.  Let's face it, few of us go to work just for the hell of it, we expect a pay cheque; so does the dog :D

You don't need a behaviourist to train a dog, just a good trainer who will show you how to develop a good relationship with your dog so that he is a pleasure to own.

If you are looking for a behaviourist I suggest you ask for a referral from your vet to a member of the APBC.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/members.htm

Cant agree more with what Tohme said there really.

I *could* tell you what i think about ms Fennel, but i think people are best left to make their own minds up.

Id advise you as well to read as many different books on dog behaviour/phsycology and training as you can, themore up to date the better, and definately get your hands on a copy of Dont Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor.

Em

Not to mention The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson! :)

Thanks very much all - you have def. helped me to make a confusing decision. I have looked up the dog trainers in my area and have emailed a couple about 1-2-1 training. I will let you know how it goes as it progresses :)

oops, lol, i didnt, hee hee

Still waiting for someone to lend me taht (i banned from library cos i got blamed for spilling something on Jan Fennell, and i really really didnt, as tempting as that was, and i am NOT paying for it¬!!!!)

Em

Hi,

I agree with what has been said so far, not that I am a dog psychologist ;) I have read a lot about Jan Fennel and what various people have had to say on her techniques, go on theemax, please tell me about your thoughts on Ms Fennel ;) Is she really one of these "new age" old technique dog shrinks, as I have read recently??

As far as i can tell, yes! if new age old technique means wot i think it means.

I read her book (the first one) whilst i was dogsitting for a friend, who also has a lot of older dog books, and she has just twiddled a few theories and put them in her own words.

I disagree entirely with her view that her methods will work on ANY dog, her methods seem to be based around the NILIF theory, nothing in life is free, which can be a useful tool, and a good way of getting the softer dog owner who may be having issues with a pushy dog, to regain control. However with a very sensitive dog, or a dog whose behaviour is masking a more serious problem, NILIF alone wont help, and can make things worse, something Ms Fennell just wont accept.

I also have to say, the prices she charges are extortionate...... i very nearly (and sadly never did) had an appt with Dr Daniel Mills, who is a veterinary behaviourist and teaches at a university (and i forget which one now!) whose fees are in fact affordable by me (and im about the poorest person who ever lived, currently!) whereas Ms Fennell would see me eating beans for a year (no frills ones at that!) for her services!

She has done a nice job of repackaging old theories, some of which are veyr outdated and were being questioned by the people who came up with them, adn is also cashing in, IMHO on the Monty Roberts Horse Whisperer thing.........

Not that i have a problem with Monty Roberts, but his methods work, and hers dont, not surpriseing considering horses and dogs are quite different!

Em

So, if dogs and horses are different, why are we putting halti's, gentle leaders etc. on dogs???

Halti's are actually based not on a horse head collar but the goat head collars. As far as I am aware you lead horses in head collars & they are not used in riding as the bridle(bitless or otherwise) is used in riding & driving. Head collars in horses are also used as a fore runner to the bridle well at least they people I know who have reared & trained horses use them is this way, never seen any of them riding a horse with a head collar only

Whereas the goat head collar is used to control the goat in showing a bit like breed showing in dogs

The horse is a different species to a dog & bonding with a dog & the link up in a horse is different. Isn't the horse a prey animal & the dog a hunter ????? So working with the two can use the same techniques, but using body language is universal in the training of any animal

IMHO A lot of the 'methods' contained in these 'new books' are things we oldies have beed doing for years based on common sense and a mutual respect for animals as fellow beings not posessions. I have read most of them (except Culture Clash which I must get..never seems to be on Ebay) and am amazed and open mouthed at people giving new names to old methods and claiming it for themselves..no names of course.. :-D     jf...oops was that a slip of the tongue?????? :-P smack wrist Fieldwalk, naughty girl!

...don't get me wrong I think there is a need for trainers in this world where people buy totally unsutable dogs for their particular life style ...and  if you have the skills to train excellent but... I think it wrong to charge exorbitant fees for helping people with their dogs ..a fair rate yes..we all have to eat, but don't exploit the animals and owners you are purporting to be  help. There are many who are not publicised in the same way as some others, they quietly write their books and are often to be seen giving of their time for free.. :-)
'Just a dog owner with no axe to grind!!'

I totally agree with you.

For help with their dogs, where it's more the owners who are the problem and not the dog.

I am now being trained by someone who charges reasonable rates and puts the owners in their place and tells them what they are doing wrong.  She's absolutely brilliant and at long last I enjoy going to a training class where the dogs aren't yanked around and doing things they don't enjoy.

Depends on the horse and the headcollar...

Horses can be ridden in headcollars - I can ride Josh in one - because he is very sensible and is aware of other aids used in riding, other than a bit, such as legs and seat. Horses can also be ridden in Parelli Horsemanship halters which, I believe, give a bit more control, and dually halters too which have pressure points. All depends on the horse - ultimately, even a bit won't stop a bolting horse.

I also used to ride my old horse in just her headcollar :)

I agree with you that these methods don't work on all dogs and sometimes can make existing problems worse.  I got called to give advice on a dog who the owners told me was very dominant - they had read this from a certain book by the author mentioned here. 

I refused to advise unless I saw the dog.  When I got there the dog was anything but dominant, it was friendly and boisterous with people he knew but a little uncertain of himself in new situations/meeting new people. 

His owners had been 'demoting' him to treat his dominance and this made him even more apprehensive and submissive than he already was.  This is the trouble with one answer solutions to all problems - they do not work.  If you don't read the dog correctly and handle accordingly you make an even bigger mess.

Actually, I have heard recent critisism of Monty Roberts.  Although his methods were better than the old 'break and school 'em' type training with horses it has been found that running a horse around a round pen until it is so exhausted it stops and 'allows' the trainer to approach is really not that much kinder after all.  I suppose it depends on where you sit on the scale of acceptable or unacceptable methods to get the result you want.  Frankly, i think Monty's method could be much improved on but then I'm not a 'horse' person, my love in life are dogs.

Moonmaiden,

A horse is not a prey animal. They're a browser. A halter is used for leading or sometimes beginning ground work and a bridle is used for riding as you have better control. The bit brings the signal that you're giving them to a much more precise level. They can't feel anything with a halter as far as turning or anything else. A hackamore, a bitless bridle gives more control than a bit sometimes because it puts pressure on their chin and on top but it still doesn't give the precise direction that a bit does. But you can stop a runnaway horse well with a hackamore.

I can tell you from living with horses for most of my life, they bond very much like a dog. They have always been my buddies, but maybe not quite to that level, perhaps because of their way of thinking or intelligence isn't quite up there with a dog. But they are a herding animal that doesn't like to be alone and like a dog are very gregarious and bond well with their people. You will find many more aggressive dogs than you will horses because they aren't hunters or prey animals. That just isn't their way except in a few circumstances like food guarding from eachother and a few other things. There are some who for one reason or another are nasy and dangerous, but for the most part, horses are friendly to people. They tend to be fearful animals because they are prey to others.

Carrie

Carrie, I must admit I was taught there were only two types of animal - predator and prey. A horse is certainly not a predator, therefore it must be a prey animal ... ;)

A horse is definitely a prey animal.

To the poster above - I gather you are talking about the whole Frozen Watchfulness concept that has suddenly appeared regarding the MR methods. Its an interesting concept, one that I would agree with initially. I don't hold much respect for the round penning methods to be totally honest.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, they are prey to other animals, cougars etc. I meant they are not predators. I got the two words messed up in the first part of my post. Then wrote in the last sentence of why they were fearful animals.

I think you are wrong the horse is hunted by predators in the wild so must be prey. Never seen anything to suggest that they were predators I stand to be corrected though if someone can show me where

Suzieque,I totally agree with you about the fact that a dog showing boisterous behaviour is not always dominant.I have one staying with me and I had posted earlier last week about his fear of doorways.His owner is a great believer in the Fennel way but i'm sorry I've had the dog for just over a week and I've given that dog more confidence and love that he's ever had and you can see the results already.He actually looks happier and is such a lovable thing(apart from when he's fighting my girl),he goes through ALL doors quite happily now and goes to training no problem.I feel really,really sorry for him and yes I think some of the training methods may work but others have made this dog into a cowering,shy,and fearful pet,not any more!He has had a huge confidence shot and I will be passing on to the owner the things I've done and what she must continue to do to keep him like that,sandra.(Sod Jan Fennel,I'll do it my way and get better results!)

LOL Sandra does that mean you don't use the listening methods then ;)

She used to be a weekly broadcaster on the local radio & used tell people"I think I need to go into more depth with you"then csall them back sfter the show & charge them for advice & visits etc, naughty as the station was a BBC one & she was using it to get busimess.

She showed her"GSD"s at Crufts in a class I was watching. She had a cheese wire choker high under the dogs ears & it's tail was tucked firmly under it's bellyA really good example of her methods.

That makes me cringe to think of it.Yes, I do discipline my dogs but none of them have their tails between their legs.I find a sharp word works in most cases as the dogs want to please me and they hate it if I ignore them after they have been naughty.My usual phrase to get them under control is 'Right, that's enough' in a very loud voice,they soon learn to stop unruly behaviour.

TO BRODY THE BASSET. Sam I can't find the post about Brody wetting?I was thinking though,if it does't sound silly what do you do before you go to work? Do you just let Brody out in the garden or somewhere to relieve himself ? A long walk first is often the answer when you have to leave a dog for any length of time. I think dogs retain a certain amount of urine for 'scenting' and when they go for a good walk they empty their bladder (and bowels) completely while scenting and  'go' lot more times then they do when  just going out in the garden. If you don't do this already taking Brody for a long walk may help to get him back to being clean when left. :-D

"I think you are wrong the horse is hunted by predators in the wild so must be prey."

Are you kidding? This is a most uninformed statement. Why do you think they were born to run and can run hours after they're born.... and have such a tendancy to be fearful, skittish, watchful animals? Cougars, wolves......A wolf pack will single out the weaker one in a herd and take it down. A cougar can jump the back of a horse when conditions present themselves. Horses are not predators, as they eat grass, tree leaves etc, not meat, but they are prey to other animals.

http://www.horsewhisperer.com/Horse_Training_Articles/nature_of_the_beast.

http://petcaretips.net/horse_safety.html

Carrie

Sorry but animals are grouped in to two types Predator & Prey-so what you are saying is that horses are unique ??

If one is killed & eaten & they themselves do not hunt & kill they are prey

Elephants are prey, Hippos are prey, Rhinos are prey  even if few are ever killed & eaten

How many lions, cougars etc are killed & eaten ?? Killed yes eaten no

Horses similar to Zebras which can run shortly after birth as do many prey animals that is their defence

Uninformed ????? Have you studied the big cats in their natural environment & seen them kill Zebras for food ?

It is natures way that the weak end up as food & in the natural world the weak are the very young, the very old & the sick.

Recent studies have revealed many prey animals that fall to predators are actually ill & therefore would probably have died anyway Natural way of keeping the balance only man influences changes by destroying habitats & animals for bush meat & profit or just for fun

I forot to add you seem to think that prey animal means a hunter when in reality it means just the opposite

A predator is "ny animal that lives by preying on other animals"
A prey animal is an"animal hunted or caught for food"

Now tell me that a horse is not a prey animal

Moonmaiden is saying the horse is a prey animal - ie it is preyed on by other species...!

Hi reddoor, I originally posted about Brody weeing as a guest.... I got over 75 responses (mostly arguing about one thing or another - I wish they had all been helpful suggestions, as I think Brody would have been cured by now lol :)) It appears to have disappeared a couple of days ago for some reason!!! Anyway, getting back to your questions:

I do take Brody for about a 10-15 min walk in the morning when I first get up. I leave approx 1½ hrs after I get up. When I leave for work I take him in the garden for a wee. I understand what you mean, however he has had this routine for 6 months (since taking him out of crate - he was in there to toilet train), and has never had this problem before, except for the odd, vary rare accident. Yet two weeks ago, he started to wee every day when I came in - once he hadn't even touched his water all day. He has now started to wee on a night as well. My query was I don't know why he has started doing this after 6 months of being properly house trained. We do not have a garden attached to the house so every since he was a puppy, he has been taken at regular intervals. This has worked extremely well, as Brody had adapted to 'certain times' for toilet calls - First thing when I get up at 7.15am(on walk), then I feed him, when I leave for work at 8.45am, as soon as I return from work at 3.30pm, on his afternoon walk (usually around 4.30pm - 5pm), he eats at 6.30pm, goes to garden at around 8pm-9pm, then finally before we go to bed at 12am. Like I say has been this routine every since we got him and has worked extremely well up until 2 weeks ago. Nothing has changed in his routine to do this. Any suggestions would be grately appreciated.

im not really in this post at all, however i thought i would say that carrie's posts, other than that first one where she confuses the words, say that horses are prey animals.  they do not hunt.  moommaiden, you seem to be wanting to argue with carrie when you really seem to agree.  Horses are prey.  they are NOT predetors.  you are right and carrie is right.

Oh! LOL LOL LOL LOL...now I think I see. Here's the sentence: "I think you are wrong the horse is hunted by predators in the wild so must be prey."

I read that to say, "I think you are wrong T H A T the horse is hunted by predators in the wild so must be prey." And what you must have meant and should have made into two sentences was: "I think you are wrong.     The horse is hunted by predators in the wild so must be prey."  Correct me if I'm wrong. It was a misreading of the sentence....should have been two sentences. Without the period, it looks like you think I'm wrong in thinking the horse is hunted by predators. Get it???? Hee hee hee.....no hard feelings? Mix up. Of course I know that horses are killed by other animals and that they do not kill other animals, but eat vegetation. Agreed?

Elija....you're an English major, right? Do I have this right?

Anyhow, the point was that horses were different than dogs in that one is a hunter of meat and one is not. However they both share that they live in groups....packs for wolves anyhow and herds of horses so are gregarious animals that don't like to be alone and bond with people...therefore making them both very domesticatable and trainable. Of course the dog is higher on the intelligence scale. But having always had both horses and dogs, I find them to be very bonding and great buddies. And I had pointed out that I thought that you would see more aggressive dogs than you would horses partly because of that hunter, predator thing vs. the horse not being a hunter/killer....just a grazer/browzer...whatever. And no.....I'm not getting into anymore arguments about that. LOL LOL LOL LOL ....You guys crack me up.

Carrie

Actually you told me I was misinformed as Horses are not prey animals then quoted some urls to prove this

I then posted dictionary quotes to show that they are

Simple as that, I did not pick an argumernt just stated some facts which you choose to deny, fine by me

Edited to Add

Carrie

I am english & the sentence reads corretly to an english eye

I just wrote a post at the same time as you did so mine is out of sync. I apologize for my mixing up the terms, prey and predator. I said I had that reversed or confused in my earlier post. I thought I explained that I know that horses are prey, but not predators. Of course....everybody knows that. So what is the deal here?

Hiya

Do you react in any way when you come home or get up & he has wet ? Not necessarily verbally but with body language ?

He could have gotten a response from you when he did it & does it to get your attention ? Even a telling off will mean he has got your attention

If he has wet when you come home do you clean it up first then take him out & if he hasn't do you take him out straightaway ?

I take it he definitely has no medical problems ? Even a mild bladder or similar infection could cause the problem needing to go more often

Ok Moonmaiden. But can you say honestly that you don't understand what I mean? Please say it isn't so.

LOL

Carrie

Hi Moonmaiden. I don't react at all whether he has had a wee or not. I had been advised that if I respond to him immediately when I come in, that he assumes he is 'boss' as I am going straight to him. Before I stopped acknowledging him immediately, he used to run and jump up at me repeatedly, as though he was telling me to acknowledge him. Someone told me not to acknowledge him, which I started doing, and the jumping up stopped. So to answer your question, I take him out immediately every day when I get him, without acknowledging him, whether he has weed or not. I do not express any sort of unhappiness (or happiness) as I know he will not understand why, as the deed was done a while beforehand. I clean the wee as soon as I get back - I am not a dirty person - it has almost dried anyway, so can't do any more damage than it already has.
I have taken him to the vet, who has ruled out anything medical i.e. urine infection etc. This is what is so frustrating - I don't know why it has just started, when nothing has changed since he stopped going in his crate - six months have gone by without a hitch, and now this starts. It is truly confusing.

Hiya

Probably unrelated, but did you stopping greeting him when you come in happen around the same time as the weeing?

Have you changed anything about your leaving routine?

When you are home, does he ask to go out? Or not. If not, would he go off into another room and relieve himself, even though you were in.

I think the chances are, that he isnt actually housetrained, just that his body clock was in sync with when you were taking him out and for some reason, now its not.

After a few times of weeing on the floor, its become a natural thing to do, and if he has never had any reason to 'hang on' he wont see the need to now.
Also, what happens if you dont give him access to the place he wees.... presuming he wees in teh same place every time.

Em

The not greeting on return is the classic Jan Fennell idea to show the dog you are leader, totally against the normal reaction in a pack of dogs, were the Alpha & hunters are always greeted on return to the pack & the jumping up is also the natural response.. Unfortunately not acceptable to most oweners. It in my opinion is better to train for the dog to greet by sitting & being rewarded with a quiet fuss &/or treat(as would  happen when adults return to a pack in the wild & feed the young)

Em has also asked my next set of questions

Hi Em and Moonmaiden.

In reply to the non-greeting - I stopped greeting him a few months ago, he only started weeing a couple of weeks ago. At the time his jumping up was non stop with everyone. This was continuous, and the only way to stop him was to put him in another room - which was obviously no way to go on for any of us!!!. But I could never get him to stop - even with treats he would come straight back as soon as he lost interest in the food. The only way it worked, was to ignore him, and even now, the only people who he jumps up at is the people who talk to him as soon as they walk through the door. Obviously I realise he just appreciates being responded to - but when a fully grown dog is jumping up and scratching people, and children, even if it is obviously not intentional, I knew I had to find something to get him stop. This seemed to work. Like I say I tried to get him to sit, and without fussing, stroke him, but as soon as I stopped the jumping started. I tried this for a long time, but he didn't calm down at all. He only follows a command i.e. sit, lie down, stay when he feels like it :), I am in the process of trying to correct that by organising to see a trainer on a 1-2-1 basis :)

He doesn't ask to go out, but he has never weed in another room at all (except for an odd rare accident), until 2 weeks ago. He does usually wee in the same place, only a couple of times has been somewhere else, and I know that it will just be a habit now (which of course is the worrying part). I cannot not give him access to the place he wees, as he stays in the kitchen/dining room when I am out - I cannot leave him in the living room, as he likes to chew fabric when he gets bored with his toys (I have forgotten to move the door mat a few times, and have come in to carnage :)) - He would def. go straight for the 3-piece suite lol

I actually had thought the same about what Em says about him not actually being house trained, and that his body clock was in sync. I would probably agree that that is the cause. Of course, if that is right, my question is how do I change this?

Finally, I have changed my leaving routine, in the sense that, our garden has been getting re-done i.e. new turf (whole new overhaul), whilst this has been happening, I have taken him up the road to wee (5 mins away) before I leave for work, rather than across the road into the garden (which isnt attached to the house). Could this make a difference, and if so, what should I do, as I would rather not have him weeing on the new turf. I know that sounds terrible, and if it is the problem, obviously I will let him, but I have fields all around the street I live in to take him to instead - Do you think it is making a difference?

Hi BB. I agree with Em,, :-)I do not think Brody is houstrained at all! IMHO (sorry to sound bossy boots but I have fallen for Brody :-D) you need to..sanitise every place in the house Brody soiled with bio washing powder..start some proper housetraining from scratch as with a puppy..outside after sleep,food and every hour and when he shows the slightest sign of wanting to go. You need to start this when you have a few days off ( this long w/e ?)to get a good start..lots of praise say 'clean dog' and tipbit when he performs ANYTHING outside ever a dribble... I am sorry but I don't think ten or fifteen mins is a walk for a Basset..two miles is a short one!I think he needs more excersise to stop him getting bored and to make him feel better, after all he is a hunting dog. I am not an advocate of putting dogs in  another room when you come in prefering to have a dog 'sit and stay' to  be greeted, putting the dog in another room to me does not address the issue and is not normal behaviour for a dog. I hope some training helps with poor Brody.  Bassets are lovely dogs and I think with a bit of training and effort Brody could be a happy dog and wonderful pet. I go to work and my dog goes with me, if I let her out to p in the garden before we go (through her door she knows the words 'be clean') she does a quick one and asks to go again at work a couple of hours later,if I take her for a long walk..not always easy but I mostly do.. she relieves herself lots of times 'scenting' and does not want to go again for ages and snores contentedly for hours..the benifit of excersise!
Once Brody realises 'outside' is the place to go it does not matter where you take him but the field sounds good :-) But if you could manage a good walk Brody will be less bored and destructive and will probably sleep while you are gone,combine this with housetraining and he will be clean too. :-)
Good luck!!!

I think a 10 - 15 min walk in the morning and 30 mins in the afternoon is IMHO nowhere near enough exercise for a Bassett!  Certainly not enough to tire his brain out and help prevent him from chewing; Bassetts can and do go for miles. 

Obviously he is only 14 months old but he having more than this.

Glad you think so too Tohme..sadly my vision of  a Basset does not fit in with most peoples views..I see them running through the fields for miles nose to the ground..just a romantic I suppose. :-)

Id agree with that......

Bassets are in fact bred to hunt  hare.... now obviously no basset (even the English Basset, the version that is still capable of hunting!) is going to catch a hare through speed.... my bedlington would struggle, and my saluki x would find it an effort, although not so much of one!

They hunt the hare down through persistance!!! a hare when hunted goes round in circles, so they follow it until it quits running...... that takes a considerable amount of time! Like all day!

Like others have said, go back to basics, train as if he was a tiny pup. BUT, id add in that you want him to ASK to go out, im not sure how that will work when you arent there, but, if you have made the area he used to wet in clean of ANY smells, and are consistent enough in not letting him wet the area in the meantime (by crating and having someone take him out) you should stand a chance.

Dont forget, dogs are designed to store urine, and often wont empty fully.... he probably has never ever had to hold himself with a full bladder, and so when that does happen he has no reason not to go.

Pick a day where you have nothing else to do, take sometime off work if you can. and then just wait, dont take him out! Sounds harsh but eventually, he will ask to go out, take him straight to the toilet area, and then if its walk time, go for the walk AFTER he has been. You need to teach him to ASK to go, adn then go properly!

If he is bored whilst in alone, give him kongs, interactive toys, probably food based ones, but definately up the exercise, he might not be a fast mover, but he is a stamina dog, so get your hiking boots on (ill sit backa nd relax, hehe, sighthound owners have it easy!)

Em

Sorry Tohme - when I wrote that he goes on his afternoon walk maybe 4.30pm - 5pm, I meant he goes out between those 2 times. I walk him usually for about 45 mins to an hr, which again is probably a little less than he would like. I have a 7 yr old son who has to come with me in the morning, which I know shouldn't be used as an excuse, however it is a little more restricting that I should like. I do agree that he would walk 25 hrs a day if I let him :). Of course, at the moment it is impossible to let him off the leader as he doesn't take any notice of me when it is time to come back. I am going to work on this with the trainer though, and for the moment I use and extendable leader