I've noticed a lot of discussion about "dominance" on a couple of threads. Sorry for those who are bored with it (!) :) but I would really appreciate some opinions. I agree that behaviour isn't always about dominance - sometimes it is just "normal" dog behaviour or natural behaviour in the circumstances and that the "dominance" concept can be overused. But at the same time, you do want to catch "real" dominance and do something about it before it becomes something dangerous. The problem for novice owners like me with a boisterous BIG puppy is how do you tell if it is the real (dangerous) thing or if you are just over-reacting to normal puppy behaviour?

As many of you know, I have a 6mo Great Dane puppy called Honey who is a very "in your face" kind of dog. She is VERY confident and outgoing and always goes up to any stranger or dog with tail wagging. She was socialised a lot from the moment she came to us at 7 weeks and now doesn't flinch at roaring buses, screaming children, motorbikes, bicycles, skateboards, alarms, vacuums, vets, you-name-it...even if she meets something "scary", she seems to bounce back and regain confidence very quickly. At home, she is very well-behaved and does not show any particular "dominance" behaviours - partly because we are very strict with her and set a lot of rules from Day 1: she can't go on any furniture, is banned from all bedrooms and the kitchen, eats after everybody including the cat, has to sit for everything, including her meals, and has to wait at doorways until we pass first and tell her she can follow, etc. She comes from breeders who are famous for the good temperaments of their dogs and we met both her father and mother who are lovely. She doesn't have any of the usual puppy problems (yet!) of mouthing/chewing/jumping up/barking...and she has never growled or shown any aggressive behaviour  - the only time was at Obedience class last week when a terrier suddenly went for her (without obvious provocation), snarling and biting her throat and she snarled back - they were pulled apart very quickly.

Her one and only problem - the thing I'm worried about - is her behaviour when she meets other dogs. Most dogs I see seem to do mutual butt-sniffing and then maybe invite to play with a play-bow...with Honey, she might sniff for a second but then she seems to immediately start launching herself at the other dog, pawing the other dog's face, trying to mount its shoulder, jumping on it, wrestling it and pinning it to the ground. Understandably, a lot of dogs don't like this sort of "pushy" behaviour and they go for her, snarling and growling - usually, they are older dogs. Occasionally, we meet younger dogs who seem keen to play with her and although it looks really scary, trainers and other owners have pointed out to me that the other dog must enjoy it as they keep coming back to Honey for more, even though it looks like she is squashing them. There is never any squealing or growling, although there is a lot of mouthing each other's muzzles and "mock biting" of ears and stuff. As most dogs are smaller than Honey, they always end up underneath although occasionally, she meets another Dane or a strong Boxer and then she'll often end up underneath - and they also seem to do the same things to her, like mounting her shoulder and wrestling her to the ground. She has never injured another dog and in fact, most trainers/people who meet her say that she has a very soft mouth (and my kitten who ends up in her jaws everyday can attest to that!). In fact, several trainers and Dane people have come up to me specially to tell me what a lovely temperament she has. But, having said all that, she does still try to jump on and wrestle every dog she meets and she does approach them with her tail high and wagging slightly (isn't that an dominance pose?).

I'm very confused now as to whether this behaviour is just normal puppy play or whether it's a sign that she is trying to dominate every other dog she meets and something I should be worried about? They do say that mounting is dominance behaviour and she does seem to try to mount every dog she meets or put her paw over their shoulder. On the other hand, our trainer insists that it is normal puppy play behaviour and nothing to worry about - that that is how puppies play - she points out that other dogs behave the same way but it's less obvious because they are a lot smaller. I have to admit, we went to a Great Dane Club Day Out last weekend where she met lots of other Dane puppies her size and age and they also acted exactly like her, trying to mount her and pin her to the ground, which did make me feel a bit better. However, her breeders think that she is being dominant, though, and say that I should be nipping things in the bud by telling her off and pulling her away every time she tries to put a paw over or jump on another dog. But then my trainer says to leave her as she is just trying to play and anyway, when I pull her away, the other dog comes over and jumps up at her!!

AAaaaarrrgghh - I'm so confused! What does everyone think? Is she just a well-socialised, confident, over-playful puppy or is she a bossy-boots on the way to becoming a dangerous, dominating bitch? And the other thing is, even if she IS trying to dominate every other dog - maybe that is only natural and expected? Like maybe it's not such a terrible thing? That that is what puppies try to do to each other in the wild anyway?

Anyway, sorry for this long post but I wanted to make sure that I described the situation clearly. Any opinions or comments would be appreciated. (By the way, I'm not actually having any trouble controlling her - she is quite respectful of the choke chain. I'm just not sure whether I should be using it to restrain her behaviour or let her be.)
Thanks,
Hsin-Yi

SHe sounds like a perfectly normal, well socialised puppy to me;

She sounds just like my friends danes who all play like that, her old girl used to love one of my BC's & used try to pick him up even when he got to 6 months old

They do tend to bat each other etc Typical GD

yes, i agree, she sounds like a normal, boisterous poppy.  playing is different that domiinance.  you will know the difference when you see it.  playing is playing.  dominance is pushy behavior.

Hi, My boxer behaves in a similar way except she will keep going down on her front paws and barking continually, til the other dog runs around with her. I find it very frustrating as not all dogs want to play and I can't seem to shut her up. Any ideas.

Mmmmm dominance!

Right, no, it is not dominance, it IS a process of learning what is and isnt acceptable behaviour, and learning which dogs are 'boss' and which dogs arent. She is finding out, so you could say it is attempted dominance, but really even that would be wrong, because to attempt dominance, she would have to have some urge to BE the dominant dog, and from what you say, she doesnt. If she did, then you would find she wouldnt take kindly to other dogs shoulder mounting her, or pushing her to the ground.

As far as dominance towards people goes, as far as i am concerned, it doesnt exist.

The reasons for this are:
To be dominant over a human, the dog would have to view the human as a dog, they do not.
Similarly, the dog would have to have an ability to forward plan,a dn they do not.

All the behaviour i see and hear of that is labelled as 'dominant' is in fact not. What the people labelling this behaviour really mean is 'attempted dominance' and again, it is not.

Dogs do what is rewarding. If being a git, barging about, barking, humping, scent marking indoors, growling and refusing to get off furniture, or refusing to give back stolen items,  is rewarded, then simply, the dog will continue to do so. If it is not, then the dog wil stop.

Frequently dogs are described as being 'dominant', because they are pushing the owner around. The owner is told that they have elevated the dogs status in the 'pack' (another word and theory that is IMHO rubbish) and they need to reduce the dogs status to stop the problems.
If they do this, frequently the dog then behaves in a much more acceptable manner, and the owner thinks 'yes, the dog was being dominant, and ive sorted it'.

Actually, the dog has been GIVEN either a reason to behave inappropriately (ie stealing the hairbrush results in a fun game of chase, or, growlling when told to get off the sofa means the owner lets dog sit on the sofa unchallenged), or they havent set firm enough ground rules in the first place.
The minute the owner DOES instigate proper house rules, then the dog behaves, because the inappropriate behaviour is not rewarded.

So, there are NO dominant dogs, in my opinion. There ARE dogs with more or less determined characters, some dogs will be told no once, and never try the same trick again, some dogs will have to be told a million times, but they are NOT trying to take over the world!

Em

Very well put Em. :)

Ditto :D

ditto ditto ;)

Yep, normal playful pup, enjoy it while it lasts. :-)

;)
ta, beginning to get a bit paranoid that im just an annoying know it all!

i surprise my self some days, common sense doesnt actually come naturally to me you know!

Em

Thanks, Em, for your explanations which I thought made a lot of sense. It's really difficult for new owners like me when we get told about "dominance" all the time and get terrified by the thought of having a "dominant" dog, although in my situation, I don't have a problem with my dog being pushy towards me at all (or towards humans), the way people usually label "dominant dogs" - it's just her behaviour towards other dogs that has me concerned.
Sorry, I'm a bit confused by your sentence:

"it IS a process of learning what is and isnt acceptable behaviour, and learning which dogs are 'boss' and which dogs arent"

But if you say that, then doesn't this mean, that some dogs want to be/ARE 'boss', which means that they are/trying to be dominant? And how do I know that Honey isn't trying to be one of these kinds of 'boss' dogs? You say that she is not attempting to dominate other dogs because she hasn't got the urge to be top dog...but how do I know that? Maybe she is submissive towards us (humans) but is bossy towards dogs?? And although she does end up under other dogs sometimes, she always struggles like mad to get back on top - so does that mean she isn't taking kindly to being underneath? (although she never snarls or growls or snaps or anything - she just struggles). Sorry - I hope I don't sound argumentative - I'm not! I agree with you...I'm just fascinated and would like to make sure I understand her behaviour properly.

Another question - Honey often approaches other dogs with her head up and her tail high and wagging slightly - I've read that this is a "dominance" posture by alpha dogs...is this not true then? What does her body language mean in that case?

Lots of people have suggested off-leash play will help her learn "dog-speak" better and how to interact with other dogs. Whenever we do let her off lead to play with willing dogs, there isn't much mounting at all - they seem to just run around each other and "mock bite" and maybe wrestle a bit but overall, it seems a lot more playful than dominating. It seems like being on the leash makes things worse.
There's a fantastic off-leash park near us which is like a dog show every evening, with over 50 dogs of different sizes and shapes all loose and running around, playing and sniffing. It's fantastic for socialisation and the number and variety means that there is more chance of finding someone big enough and willing to play with Honey. We have just discovered it and have gone there twice so far - will try and get there more often and let her have off-leash time with other dogs, to hopefully help her improve her "dog communication skills".

The only thing I'm worried about is when I let Honey off-leash there to play freely, what if her boisterous behaviour annoys another dog and then there's a dog fight? She has never shown aggression towards another dog yet (except for the terrier I mentioned who attacked her) but I'm worried that with her size, she could do a lot of damage in a dog fight. What should I do if I let her free and then a fight starts?

Thanks again!
Hsin-Yi

I've read these posts with great interest as I thought I had a dominant dog staying with me for 2 weeks but now I realise he just doesn't know when to or how to just play without getting aggressive.I have a boerboel bitch Raz(love of my life)and we have her brother staying for his hols and Raz has approx 7 wounds all on her cheeks or neck where he has been playing too rough.Raz has been playing with 4 fully grown Akitas since she was 10 weeks and has never had a scratch on her and what has made it worse is that she has actually lost her temper and bitten him back.Raz is usually super laid back and to have seen this change is quite scary.I take the blame as I didn't watch closely enough at first but at 6 months you don't think they are going to do that damage to each other so now I have separated them and they only get very closely supervised play.I thought he was trying to  show his dominance in the fact that he was pinning her down etc and put an end to it when I caught him, but when I think of his situation he has never been taught how to play without inflicting all this damage which I'm sure my Akitas have taught Raz from day 1.Now I only have to make sure that every time she sees him in future she doesn't go off on one and really go for him,remembering the things he has done to her!!!!

Hiya

Yes, dogs do interact with one another on the grounds of who is the top dog and who isnt, status between dogs can change though adn in some situations one will be the 'boss' and in others this will change around.

When dogs meet each other, strangers at first, there is a lot of natural instinctive body language that goes on. In very small puppies, their reaction to an older, more mature dog, is to roll on their backs, and sometimes to pee.
Thats a natural appeasing gesture that means 'i am not a threat, i accept you as superior'.  As they get older they learn from other dogs, so if your pup was to always play with dogs who liked rough fast chase games, for example, and had no problem with bottom nipping whilst chasing (my two lurchers do this) then the pup learns that this is fine. You then can get a problem when the pup meets a dog who doesnt like this game at all.

Shoulder mounting, barging etc is another of these play types, and as dogs get older they will be more serious about it and less playful, and certainly iwth my older dog, Rocky, i know its often a trouble sign when he shoulder mounts a dog and has a stiff tail and ears back..... he is waiting for the reaction from the other dog, if its a none threatening reaction then all is fine, but if its a growl and a snap, a fight may occur.

Some dogs your pup will meet will simply exude 'i am boss' and these dogs are very rarely challenged about it, others are more flexible, and soem will never be the boss towards another dog.

But, in human to dog interactions, i firmly believe there is NO dominance. That said, there are dogs who rule their owners with an iron paw, but that is of the owners making and was never the dogs premeditated choice!

I think your dog does sound like she will be a flexible dog, she is just weighing up the situations as they come.

Off lead play is great, so long as you make sure it doesnt go to far, and only you can judge that because you know your dog.

I think you are right to worry that your dog could damage another, all of us need to be aware of that, as really there are very few dogs who COULDNT damage another dog or person.
The way to go about that is to make sure your dog has plenty of access to play with others, and also to make sure she has a 'time out' command, which means she stops playing and comes to you. Teaching her to leave other dogs, and only play when you say so is also of benefit, beyond that, all you can really do is learn your dogs body language and the time it takes between her spotting something to go see and making the decision that she IS going to go over there....... i do this with Rocky because i cant always know if the dog he wants to go see is going to be friendly, hard to explain in words, but there is a point between the ears going 'oooooh!' and him making the choice to go, if i get the command in before he makes his choice, he will come back, if not, he wont.

Watch and learn really!

As far as the tail slightly stiff and the head held high thing, well yes it is a very confident pose, and may have some elements of high status to it, BUT, dogs can be pushed into performing these 'alpha dog' actions when really they dont want to, or cant actually cope with the role.

Rocky is a prime example of that. I used to walk with a couple of ladies and their dogs, two border collie bitches and a neutered male OES.
When rocky joined this 'pack' at first he was only welcomed by the youngest bitch. He was bullied by the OES (charging at him and barking/nipping).... eventually a truce was drawn, and one day rocky just stood hsi ground as dennis hurtled twoards him. After that,  whilst not best mates, they tolerated one another, although there were rules (rocky may retrieve dennis's ball from the brambles but he is to give it back immediately!).
Shortly after this, when meeting new dogs, the whole pack would hang back, and rocky would be almost 'sent' out to greet the new dog. If it was a dog that was known to all the pack, even if it was strange to rocky, it would be greeted in a friendly manner, after the initial stiff stance and slightly waggy tail. If it was a strange dog however, it would be bullied, or threatened.

I began to think taht rocky was an aggressive and pushy dog, but OUT of that pack situation and OUT of that particular territory, he never displayed this behaviour at all!!!!

So, one dogs body language can alter dramatically depending on the company he is in at the time, and displaying 'alpha' status at one time does not actually mean that the dog IS an alpha/dominant dog in every situation.

I hope that helps, because now im getting confused!

Em

Thank you so much, Em, for being so patient with my questions! You've cleared a lot of things up for me and also put my mind at rest a bit. By the way, do you have any tips for how to teach the "stop playing and come back to me" command? Honey knows "Leave" and "Come" but unfortunately, all her training seems to go out the window when she's playing with other dogs. So unless I have her on a long lead, I can't really enforce any commands (especially to stop playing and come back to me! I've tried tempting her with very smelly food but when there are other dogs to play with, nothing else is remotely attractive) - but if I keep her on a long lead, then it's not really free, off-leash play and plus the dogs get really tangled up in the lead.

Thanks again,
Hsin-Yi

It IS a tough one.

With rocky, i use the command 'move it' and he seems to know that that means play/attempt to be a git over, we are going!

How good is your recall? and also, what does y our dog understand the recall command to mean.

That sounds silly because on the face of it, any recall commands means 'come here now' but when you think about it, depending on how its trained it can mean lots of things.

To my dog Dill it means 'Mums going so id best get back or ill not know where she is!' (he can get lost just by turning around a cuple of timse!)
To Rocky this means 'ooh a biscuit if i get there before Dilly does'
To Abby 'hmm, ill go see wot boy dogs are getting' (ive had her a month!)

To the dog who gets  a smack for running off, it will mean 'if i let my owner catch me ill get a smack, best cringe and be appeasing'
To the dog whose owner will keep shouting and not meaning it and waiting for hours it means 'whenever you are ready i want you, but dont rush yourself, im still here'.

Probably the best thing for the recall to mean is the one Dilly knows.. he isnt motivated by food in the slightest, he knows damn well he can steal what he wants whenever he wants (and since im very disorganised and not very tidy, he is right).... so i trained him that i call, and then i vanish!

Every walk with him is an attempt to lose him to the dog eating monsters that live in the long grass..... This works because partly he is a sighthound, he thinks that if he can still see me, he is 'here', and also expects me to be where he last saw me. A dog that relys more on scent wont be so easily fooled!

You may have to go back to basics, and use the long line again, preferably when playing wtih dogs who can also be called out for a time out. This doesnt mean you cant let her play, it just means that you dont EVER use the 'out' command unless you know for certain it WILL be obeyed, that way she never gets to disobey it, until it is firmly in her mind what it means and what she must do.

If she is toy orientated, or prefers praise or a cuddle, or a game, use that as the reward, but just make yourslef MORE exiciting than playing with other dogs, so perhaps start using the command on a long line when the other dogs dont actually want to play (so when she is just saying hi)....

I hope that helps,

Em

Thanks again, Em, for your great suggestions. I will definitely work on her Recall, which is good when there are no dogs present (she will pretty reliably come back everytime you call) but the minute there is another dog there, I think I could fall into a black hole for all she cared! I'm very reluctant to keep calling her in those cases as I don't want her to learn to ignore me - but then it's very difficult to get her back: I have to rely on grabbing her collar as she goes flying past me - last week she nearly tore my arm out of its socket!...guess I'll have to try and work on it when there aren't other dogs around and we manage to get find one corner of the off-leash park that's empty. I like your idea of running away and hiding -I've heard that before and heard that it works really well - so far, I've done the running away thing and that often gets Honey following but I haven't tried hiding yet. I doubt she'll even notice when there's another dog around, though! :)

Anyway, will let you know how I get on -
Hsin-Yi

You are spot on to worry about overusing a command that can be ignored... if in any doubt, dont call her at all, go get her if you need to, or just walk away if you dont have to extract her from a situation.

You could attach a short leash without a handle loop to her collar to make this a little easier.

Practice makes perfect, and definately try the running off and hding thing, i know a number of dogs that respond incredibly well to that, its a great one to use ifyou do have to use the same park every day, because boredom will lead to dogs misbehaving..... if your dog knows you walk anti clockwise round the park every day, then they will always know where to find you..... if you keep vanishing behind a tree, or into long grass, then its a bit more uncertain and keeping an eye on you would be wise, hehehehe.

So long as your dog gets plenty of opportunities to play, she shouldnt be too bothered about being taken away from play... i find its the dogs that are never allowed to interact that have major problems, once they ARE playing, the owner has NO chance, because as far as the dog is concerned, that opportunity might not arise again!

Em

this is a tricky one, I am just starting out, and have got bruce fogles books jan fennell and why does my dog? all seem to mention dominance as cause of bad behaviour. my parson russell will not do what my husband tells her, she bites his trousers and sleeves(until he ends up taking them off!!) he plays with her on demand and cannot stop her barking, once when its was raining hard he brought her back in because she whined and shook, two minutes later after he had gone back out she pooed on the carpet! She is undeniably a bossy little dog, if you ignore her she will go away, but he even walks her the way she wants to go! any advice on training husbands! She does seem to be dominant, to me and very stubborn, I am trying to get him to use the same commands so as not to confuse her, according to what  I have read it would seem she thinks she is above him, what do you think?

To be honest, I would say she is just a normal bossy little terrier! If she was 'dominant' she would be trying to boss you around as well ...

Gotta agree with JG there.

Terriers ARE stubborn lil things, and they are not short of a brain cell or two, so very quick to pick up on how she can behave with you, and how she can behave with your husband.

I prescribe a course of husband training here! hehehehehehe, and thats gotta be easier said than done! Good luck

Em

Just a note on sizes: dogs do not have any idea whatsoever what size or strenght they are in relation to other dogs. You will therefor find that a smaller older dog will tell your grate dane off at one point and she will accept that as she doen't actually know that she is stronger. At 7 month she is still a puppy and most dogs of any age will accept her playful behaviour.
NEVER pull her away from other dogs please, as that will raise the tension between dogs and can lead to overreactions. Unfortunately around 80% off all dog fights are down to owner behaviour.Try and make a noise instead or lure her away with a treat. Outside play is best off leash if possible as it gives all dogs the opportunity to choose the place they want to be in in relation to any other dog around at any time.
If you can, find older dogs (2-3 years up) with good social behaviour to meet with rather than loads of other puppies as this will teach her to behave in a mannerly way instead of having loads of play sessions with other dogs. But obviously don't miss out the play session with other young dogs completely.
A very good way to teach your dog to behave appropriately around other dogs are social walks that are organised by a professional dog trainer (of which unfortunately are only a handful around).