Has any one been following the debate in the dog papers about annual vaccinations ? Apparantly a group of vets are saying that annual vaccs are NOT neccessary and can in fact be dangerous. We came to that conclusion ourselves a few years ago when we nearly lost one of our dogs due to a reaction to her yealy jab. Now we only do the pups full course and the others have their vaccinations done at two yearly intervals. I would like to just use homeopathic alternatives to vaccinations but just don't know for sure how effective they would be - does anyone use them ?. There is also the issue that we would like to show our dogs in Europe and I think we need evidence of vaccinations for the pet passport ( or am I wrong in thinking this ?)

I to hope that others come along with their opinions as this subject has undertaken much disscusion in our house as well....I too nearly lost a girl with a yearly booster some might say that she must have had health problems before it was given but she was in great health before and is now .. I do know of many people who use the dog combination homeopathic alternatives rather than the booster jab but like you am not sure how affective it is..lets hope someone adds to this post with more info

I have heard of a test called Titus Testing and am wondering if anyone else has heard of this. It is apparently done to find out if dogs have antibodies against various diseases. This is done periodically so that the dog doesn't have to be inoculated against them. :)

there was a thread on this not so long ago im sure if you do a search you will find it, there was some quite useful informative info in it :)

The test for antibodies is called a titre test. Have a look thru the link below on the discussions about annual vaccs.
[link]http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/forum_search.pl?board=0&mode=and&words=vaccination+protocol&user=&age=[/link]

[link]http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/forum_search.pl?board=0&mode=and&words=Vaccinosis&user=&age=[/link]

Christine, Spain.

The links don`t work so put vaccination protocol or vaccinosis in the search box at top right hand of page.

I have just found out that my firend gave me the wrong spelling for this. I now know that it is Titre Testing. Thanks everyone. I will look up the site that Christine has given. :)

Having read through it I do know that some vets  insist on a complete start with inoculations if you miss a year or two. So, what do others think about this.?

Just seen a headline in Our Dogs that a company has developed a boost that only needs to be given every 3 years. Just had a quick scan in paper shop so no more details

Thanks everyone I'm so glad that people seem to be questioning this - it seems so wrong to pump our dogs full of vaccine irrespective of the level of antibodies already in their systems. Bet the vets are cheesed off with the thought of  losing all that regular income though !.

I have also been giving this issue lots of thought, my vet advises I continue with yearly boosters for my 13 year old  dog even though she often has a reaction on the site of the vaccs in the form of a lump the size of a walnut. Although I have stuck to vaccination I have had my doubts, 12 years ago I went to a different part of the country to a funeral taking my 8 years old dog (who had been regularly vaccinated) with me. She caught an infection and I nearly lost her with what the vet thought was parvo...so much for the booster. 

I have been following this and have done some research. For my dogs, they get their puppy series and one or two yearly boosters. Then no more. We don't get boosters every single year for the rest of our lives. I think it is way, way over done and can be definitely harmful, especially when they combine so many in one injection. (rabies being the exception. That must be done.) Or if you are around dogs a lot....dog shows, kennels where kennel cough is more likely, then maybe that one. But the way our antibody system works, they shouldn't need it continually. You can get the titre levels checked to measure the antibodies to a particular disease. I don't bother with that. I might sometime.

I too have been giving this alot of thought, just discussing this on another forum as well.

I decided that their rabie shots are good for 3 years so I will bring them in once every 3 years for their shots. Now do I just get their anual shots with their rabie or do I just ask for their rabie shot and thats all?

Any input there would be very helpful :) Tank you

I copied a bunch of stuff off the net on this and am planning on taking it into my vets and asking her what she thinks. How many people would take their animals into the vets if they are healthy for a yearly checkup (I for one would not) so as long as people think they need this yearly shot to stay healthy they are more then likely to bring their animals in and have it done. Which in return this is where they make most of their money, I read this someplace and it makes alot of sense.

No more yearly shots for my crew, but I will stay updated on the rabie shot, you just never know if your dog may bite someone or some animal, not saying they will but better safe then sorry.

Hi Dollface

My vet won't do general vaccinations and rabies shots within a minimum of 2 weeks of each other.

The Pet Passport scheme calls for rabies every two years - not one day over or you have to start again - so if we (UK) decided to give rabies we have to do it more often than you.

The pet passport scheme states that the rabies vaccination must be given within the timeframe stated by the vaccine manufacturer so it depends which brand your vet uses. Some state repeat annually others are every two years. It is essential to get this right or the dog could be stuck in quarantine.

Hi my boxer has a pets passport as we live in Germany and the rabies has to be given once a year otherwise you have to go through the blood testing again which can take up to 6 months to complete before you can bring your pet back into UK.Her vaccinations are a combined injection with her rabies included, she also has Lymes injection as there are lots of ticks over here and I do not want her to get Lymes disease as it affects their joints and makes them quite poorly.I would rather have my dog vaccinated then for her to go down with any disease..I have my children vaccinated so why not my dog!!

Jane..

I guess it's not a cut and dry thing. If Lymes disease was present in my state, I'd get that one for my dogs. It is prevelent in other parts of this country. (U.S.) Or if it's some disease that's likely for adult dogs to get...yes. I do their puppy shots and yearly booster for 2 or 3 years and then, in my case, where I live I don't worry about my adults getting some of those diseases. Puppies are very vulnerable.

Like with children, I vaccinated them too until they were teens I think. I don't go every year and get an MMR, DPT or tetanus (unless I get a horrible gash) or polio. I had the vaccines several times through childhood. If someone either gets the vaccines or gets the disease itself and survives, antibodies are created.

By this time, my antibodies have been "programmed" to "wake up" if those viruses enter my body. It's not the vaccine itself which fights the diseases. The vaccine causes your own immune system to create antibodies (little army men with bazookas) to those specific viruses. It's like several divisions in the army, each with it's own responsibility, or disease to watch out for. Once built up, if no virus makes contact, they can go relax and go to sleep. But if a virus comes along, they are on their feet in a flash, guns firing. It takes a few times during childhood to get those armies built up.

There is some discussion about the ingredients in some of these vaccines which may break down DNA, causing the immune system to malfunction, and defeating the very purpose of the vaccines in SOME cases. And causing some other problems. It can be especially unsafe when they combine several vaccines in one injection. It is better to space them out, especially with Rabies. However, they don't do this because it's cheaper to combine a bunch in one.

I still believe in vaccinating puppies and children in order to build antibodies up,  but in moderation afterward. It's important to complete the series at first or you might as well not do it at all. Again, you can get titre measurements later to make sure there are antibodies to each disease and if needed, then you can vaccinate.

Carrie

A link that explains titres below.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Titers.htm

Link on facts about boosters & whats known about vaccs & different diseases, with links for the most upto date research on them.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

One for nosodes.
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Nosodes.htm

Christine, Spain.

Hi D/Face, *Now do I just get their anual shots with their rabie or do I just ask for their rabie shot and thats all?*  Thats something only you can decide :)
Have a read thru some of the links I`ve given & then decide :)

Christine, Spain.

Thanks for the links :) I'm going to print them off
They look to be an interesting read :)

Thank you :)

Reddoor -  any vet who continues to recommend yearly boosters for a 13 year old dog who is known to suffer a reaction is, in my opinion, more concerned about losing regular income than the health and well-being of the animal.

If it were me I'd be looking for another vet, smartish !

Thanks Joyce :-) with vaccs it seems to be  a case of 'damed if you do damed if you don't' and there is not much choice of vets where I live without going a long way..

There are various issues with vaccinations:

1 No vaccine is 100% in ALL cases (some dogs/people never develop an immunity no matter how many times they have been vaccinated against some things.
2 Some vaccines have a short "life" and cover only certain strains of infection
3 If you do not vaccinate in the UK licensed kennels will not accept your custom
4 Some societies require that you sign that your dog has been vaccinated on your competition entry forms
5 Your insurance may be invalidated if you do not vaccinate (and not just for illnesses arising from non vaccination; check the small print)
6 There is no actual proof that homoeopathic nosodes actually work yet
7 some vaccinations are actually more risky than the disease itself
8 titre testing may demonstrate that the dog has cover (but not to the relevant insurance companies etc)

Nothing in life is risk free, you always need to weigh up what is LIKELY to happen against what COULD happen.

In the UK tetanus and polio boosters are only required every 10 years

My first Cavalier died three weeks after he was boosted & blood/tissue tests from the PM done by a fully qualified forsenic scientist showed the vaccination was responsible The Vaccine company did not accept the findings as the expert was not a vet(She does 100's of PM's etc for the home office, police etc)

My cavaliers are no longer conventionally vaccinated. One of mine was bred by a fully qualified homoeopath, who "shows", and she hasn't had hers vaccinated for years.
I am lucky enough to be able to use Chris Day for my animals' "alternative care", and although I dread the possibility of any of mine contracting one of the illnesses covered by the vaccinations, I am using the nosode regime, as I really feel I am risking their long term health less.

(I lost a pedigree cat through, I'm convinced, over vaccination......and he was bred by a vet! He insisted on yearly vaccinations, even though the poor cat suffered every year.)
I am going to pay for a yearly "health check" for my animals though, as I appreciate the benefit of a vet being able to pick up problems at booster time, before animals show any symptoms.
That way, I feel I'm doing all I can....just hope it's enough...

sam

A couple of points to remember.
There are licensed kennels in the UK that will accept titre tested dogs or nosode certificates in place of vaxs. I heard the other day that PAT dogs are using titre testing now.
Insurance firms usually only exclude the disease the vaccines cover.
All vaccines carry a risk & all vets know this & that only healthy animals should be vaccinated. If an animal has an allergy, taking medication, especially steroids, under going surgery, post op, etc, then no vaccines should be given & thats the manufacturers guidelines.
It`s up to everyone who doesn`t want to booster to question the authorities who insist on them as to why they are insistant on them when there is no scientific evidence for them. Only by doing this will the change come about. But it is changing slowly but surely :)

Christine, Spain.

When we were discussing this before I emailed my Environmental Health dept as I have a licensed cattery.  This is the reply I received yesterday.

" The subject of Titre testing has been raised previously and at present there are no plans to except Titre testing in place of the annual vaccination.  Therefore it remains a requirement that all cats/dogs have proof of vaccination and a record of this be kept on site when a cat/dog is boarded."

Very true Sally and also insurance does not necessarily ONLY exclude cover from the diseases commonly vaccinated against.

I am not pro vaccination but for me the risks involved in NOT vaccinating far outweigh those FOR vaccinating at the moment; I am constantly reviewing the situation.

I can only point you to what Chris Day says & also what I`ve heard on other lists, the people he & other h/pathic vets issues the nosode certificates to must be using them somewhere :)

http://www.alternativevet.org/vaccination.pdf

After seeing first hand the suffering & damage caused by vaccines the risks for me is a price I`m NOT prepared to take. It`s a decision I made after much research.

Christine, Spain.

I feel the same as you Christine which is why I sent a copy of the letter that appeared in the Veterinary Times in January to the E. H. dept. here.   Perhaps it's an area thing.  What can I do to try and sway them?

Hi Sally, how about getting in touch with the BHAVS & asking them or emailing Chris Day himself? I would think they must know how you can go about it & if they don`t, point you in the direction of who would know the in`s & out`s :)

http://www.bahvs.com/asociate.html

Christine, Spain.

Just found this so someone somewhere must know how & where it`s acceptable :)
http://www.petsastherapy.org/

Thank you Christine.  :) I will pursue that and let you know how I get on.  The person that replied from the Environmental Health department did invite me to get in touch if I wanted to discuss it further.

Yes please Sally, I`d love to know how you go on & what you find out :) Good luck!

Christine, Spain.

Here`s another letter about the debate from Nick Thompson, sorry it`s long. Hr`s asked for it to be spread far & wide :D

> To Vet Times, BSAVA, BVA, the Kennel Club, the FAB, and the Dog and

Cat
Press

5th May 2004.

>
> Dear Sir or Madam,
>
> Re the Recent debates as to whether annual booster vaccination of

animals
is

> necessary.
>
> We appreciate that the recent developments (1) in the ongoing

controversy

> regarding annual booster vaccines for dogs and cats has left the

veterinary

> profession and the pet owning public in a dilemma as to the

direction they
should

> take, especially when considering the animal welfare and consumer

protection

> issues involved.
>
> It seems that on one hand you have the vaccine manufacturers, who

appear
to be

> hiding behind legislation and the advice of an industry report

(2).  Their
stance

> that annual vaccination must be continued relies on the following

points

>
> (a)        They do not know the actual duration of immunity
>
> (b)        Vaccines do not cause significant harm, so annual

vaccination
is

> acceptable.
>
> This is also the stated view of the veterinary organisations i.e.

the BVA
and

> BSAVA (3)
>
> However, the incoming President of the BSAVA Dr Ian Mason has been

reported as

> saying   after due consideration of the evidence, the current

recommendations on

> vaccination of animals may need to be refined  (4).  Vaccine

manufacturers
must

> have known about the changes in recommendations in response to

detailed
evidence

> in the US for some time, and have been affiliated to UK groups,

such as
the Cat

> Group  (11) that have been looking at the work quoted (1). So far

it seems
the

> only action to be taken has been that of Intervet UK in extending

their
duration

> of immunity for Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvo to 3 years. While

this is
to be

> welcomed, no mention has been made yet of the Cat situation.
>
> On the other side there is a small but growing number of veterinary

surgeons and a

> strongly supportive public who are citing recent reports and

research

> (5,6,7,17,18) and conclude
>
> (a)        That duration of immunity for parvovirus, adenovirus,

distemper
(5),

> and feline enteritis (18), is established as >7years, and for feline

calicivirus

> and herpes (5,18) is established for at least 4 years, and it seems

that
giving

> booster vaccinations does not offer any further protection (6).

Therefore, annual

> vaccination is not needed for dogs and cats (with the exception of

Leptospirosis,

> discussed below)
>
> (b)        That vaccines can cause harm (5,8,9,11,14,18) and

therefore
unnecessary

> vaccination should be avoided if at all possible.
>
> Additionally they also consider that information from the

manufacturers is

> notable. These state that about 50% of dogs (10) and 2/3 of cats

(10,11)
in the UK

> are not vaccinated at all or only infrequently, but where are the

reported

> outbreaks of the diseases one would expect if the duration of

immunity
were so

> short as to need annual Boosters?
>
> While following the recent debate, there seems to have been only two

arguments put

> forward for continuing annual booster vaccines in dogs and cats.
>
> First there has been suggestion that the originating letter calling

for
cessation

> of booster vaccines was written by homeopaths and by inference

should be
ignored,

> in fact this was cited as  relevant correspondence  for the debate

in a
mailing

> from a vaccine manufacturer to all vets in the UK (12) and the

profession
is

> misguidedly it seems seeking to use this (13). Whilst it is true

that some
of the

> signatories have interests in this field, it is certainly not the

case
that all

> the signatories do. All are scientifically trained Vets in the first

instance, all

> recommend initial vaccination, and they quote the recent published

orthodo
x

> research of others.
>
> Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, is the argument for

Leptospirosis

> vaccine, where it is claimed there is a poor duration of immunity

and so
annual

> vaccination of dogs only for this must continue. This has been the

basis
of much

> research in the USA, and it is appropriate that we in the UK are

aware of
the

> findings.  We summarise them below
>
> 1.         Immunity to Leptospirosis is complex and poorly

understood.  It
can

> only be measured by challenge studies.  This is ethically

unacceptable so
we have

> to examine what is happening in the field by epidemiological

methods (5).

>
> 2.         Kansas University reports that the Leptospirosis vaccine

is THE
major

> cause of vaccine reactions, so much so that they consider the risks

outweigh the

> benefits.  It is no longer considered a core vaccine and they even

recommend it

> should not be given to puppies (9,14).
>
> 3.         Another study found the vaccine highly immunosuppressive

and

> recommended that the vaccine should not be given in conjunction

with other

> vaccines (it is currently in the UK).
>
> 4.         The Leptospirosis vaccine does not protect the dog from

being
infected

> with the disease; it just minimises the clinical symptoms.  Hence

there
seems to

> be/have been a real risk of vaccinated  healthy  dogs shedding the

spirochetes so

> possibly posing a threat to other dogs and humans.  Although one

manufacturer has

> recently claimed it has a new vaccine to prevent this, the clinical

study

> conducted to test the vaccine was based on a sample of only 6 dogs

(15).
In our

> opinion a study so narrowly based cannot of course be scientifically

credible.

>
> 5.         The duration of immunity measurable by titre induced by

the

> Leptospirosis vaccine can be as little as a few months (14,16) yet

the
advised

> interval for boosters is 1 year, which it seems has been an entirely

arbitrary

> recommendation. By inference it may well be therefore that even

vaccinated
dogs

> have not been protected as their owners expect.
>
> 6. There is little protection between serovars (types).  Use of the

vaccine in the

> USA has led to a shift in the serovars such that the serovars now

infecting dogs

> are not the ones used in the vaccines (14). Can we assume this is

true
also in the

> UK? Are we now vaccinating against a disease that barely exists in

the
form

> vaccinated for?
>
> 7. The vaccine efficacy seems between only 50 -70%, depending on the

author (5).

>
>
> The outgoing president of the BSAVA, Dr Freda Scott-Park, stated

that when
the

> science is there the profession would respond.  The science is

here, and
the

> profession must respond now or lose all credibility in this

debate.  In
the USA

> working parties have resulted in the removal of mass vaccination

requirements in

> favour of individual vaccination programmes and consumer choice.

This
would

> answer the issues of insurance and kennels/catteries that are now

being
raised as

> well as restoring public faith in the industry.
>
> Whilst we have no wish to presuppose findings in the UK, it is our

desire
to

> establish a truly independent working party under lay chairmanship

critically to

> review the scientific data, to raise questions with the

manufacturers and
report

> as soon as practically possible to the profession and the public.

We
therefore

> invite interested parties (with no links to vaccine manufacturers)

in the
dog and

> cat world, the BSAVA, the BVA, FAB and individual veterinary

surgeons to
express

> their interest in participating by writing to us at the address

below as
soon as

> practical.
>
> Yours faithfully
>
>
>
>
> Mark Elliott  BVSc VetMFHom MRCVS MIPsiMed
> John Saxton BVetMed VetFFHom MRCVS
> Sonya Winsor BSc(Hons) PhD BVetMed MRCVS
>
> Address for correspondence: 22A East Street, Westbourne, West

Sussex PO10
8SH.

>
>
> Reference:
> 1. Allport et al, Letter in Veterinary Times 26-01-04  Call to

cease the
Policy of

> Annual Vaccination
> 2. Gaskell RM et al (2002) Veterinary Products Committee (VPC)

working
group of

> feline and canine vaccination   final report to the VPC. DEFRA, PB
> 6432.www.vpc.gov.uk
> 3. BSAVA/BVA joint statement on the vaccination controversy 2004.

www.bsava.co.uk

> 4. Veterinary Review (2004) Looking Reality in the Eye. An

interview with
BSAVA

> President Ian Mason. Pg 20-22, April 2004.
> 5. Paul M et al, (2003) Report of the American Animal Hospital

association
(AAHA)

> Canine Vaccine Taskforce: Executive Summary and 2003 Canine Vaccine

Guidelines and

> Recommendations. Journal of the American Animal Hospital

Association. 39,
119-131

> 6. Bohm M et al, (2004) Serum antibody titres to Canine Parvovirus,

adenovirus and

> distemper virus in dogs in the UK which had not been vaccinated for

at
least 3

> years. The Veterinary Record April 10, 2004. 457-463
> 7. Richards J et al (2001) 2000 Report of the American Association

of
Feline

> Practitioners and Academy of Feline Medicine Advisory Panel on

Feline
Vaccines.

> Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery 3, 47-72
> 8. Meyer EK (2001) Vaccine Associated adverse events. Veterinary

Clinics
of North

> America   Small Animal Practice 31, 493-514
> 9.

http://www.newss.ksu.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/listpuppy11138.html

> 10. Intervet Mailing to Veterinary Surgeons
> 11. Report of the Cat Group on Vaccination.
> www.users.waitrose.com/~thecatgroup/vacc.html
> 12. Intervet Mailing to Veterinary Surgeons 22-03-04
> 13. Nelson M (2004) Freda shows the BVA what to expect. Vet Times

26-04-04
p5

> 14. Greene C et al (2001) Canine Vaccination. Veterinary Clinics of

North

> America   Small Animal Practice 31, 473-492
> 15. Intervet Literature on Nobivac Lepto 2  at last. A lepto

vaccine that
inhibits

> renal shedding  2004.
> 16. Coyne MJ, (2001) Duration of Immunity in Dogs after vaccination

or
naturally

> acquired infection. The Veterinary Record 149, 509-515.
> 17. Vaccination in Cats: which ones and how often? Report in Vet

Record
April 10

> 2004, pg 452
> 18. Sparkes A. The Vaccination debate continues. Veterinary Review

May
2004 38-39

>
>
> Nick Thompson BSc.(Hons), BVM&S, VetMFHom, MRCVS.
>
> Holisticvet Ltd.
> Homeopathy, Acupuncture and Nutrition for Horses, Cats and Dogs
>
> Apthorp, Weston Road,
> Bath BA1 2XT
>
> Tel: 08700 111 340
> Fax: 07092 233 930
> Mob: 07881 811 590
>
> Email: nickthompson@h...
> Website: http://www.holisticvet.co.uk/

<http://www.holisticvet.co.uk/>

>
>
>
>

Christine, Spain.

Christine many thanks for that,  :-) I will print it out and take it to my vet before our next booster is due. (Can feel big disagreement coming on)There seems to be a lot of concern about Lepto. vaccs.  it seems to present special concerns both from an immunity and reaction point of view, if this is the case I wonder why it is included as non optional in the multi vaccs when most house bound family pets have little contact with 'the wild' or rats so have little need of it anyway = risk of vaccine outways risk of infection.

Your welcome r/door :)

*if this is the case I wonder why it is included as non optional in the multi vaccs when most house bound family pets have little contact with 'the wild' or rats so have little need of it anyway* My thoughts exactly!

Christine, Spain.

<if this is the case I wonder why it is included as non optional in the multi vaccs when most house bound family pets have little contact with 'the wild' or rats so have little need of it anyway >

Rats are so common in all parts of the world that almost every dog that ever leaves their house will be exposed to rat contamination.
Rats contaminate water, soil, gravel and in fact every where that they frequent. It is said that everyone in the UK at any time is no more than 10 metres form the nearest rat, so the risk of Lepto is real (I know, I contracted it from water).

However, we do not vaccinate after the initial puppy course and the booster at 15 months of age, but I just wanted people to be aware that there is a risk. We have considered boostering for Lepto only but as the vaccine is sometimes only effective for 8 or 9 months, it did not seem worthwhile.

snomaes