My golden retriver bitch turned one two weeks ago and although she is a little sensitive around dogs (a bot of a wimp!) she has always loved people. Today i was standing outside a shop talking to my sister who works there when a women approached and wanted to talk to the dogs. I didn't mind at all because they are both friendly and she was very sensible, let the dogs sniff her hands first, didn't just dive in like most. I was amazed when ellie (GR) started growling which quickly turned into a menacing lunging bark. (which started off my border collie.) The lady (who has a dog at home apparently) just turned and walked away quickly. Two men then approached and ellie started growling at them, so i just turned and walked off.
This is so uncharacteristic of her, she was very well socialised. I spoke to a couple of people at training (with my other dog) and one thought it might be because she hasn't come into season yet, - a touch of PMT? My trainer on the other hand said that they go through another fear period between 12 and 14 months old.
Has anyone else had any similar situations and what did you do about it? My first thought was more socialisation, i.e. take her to busy places, but not force her to have immediate contact unless she wants to. (As you do with a puppy?) Or should i avoid people? I don't want to feed her fear so that it escalates.
I must admit though this afternoon we went out again and she seemed fine with people, but i'm a bit worried now.

It could well be she is about to come in season.  I have a 1 year old cocker spaniel, she has been grumpy recently, growling at my other dogs and barking at everybody that walks past her.  Today she actually came in season..............hopefully the PMT will now pass! ;-)

My 14 month bitch has been acting very oddly today and last night - she seems extremely anxious and restless at times.  It might be her hormones as she hasn't had a season yet.  I was very interested in what the poster says about a second fear period though - does anyone know about this?

It was my trainer who showed me a chart about it, facinating really. The second fear period is not as pronounced as the first (between 9 and 11 weeks i think), but apparently they may suddenly become scared of something they have been fine about before. My trainer says that if something bad happens (e.g. if a dog attacks your dog) during this time, the effects may be incredibly long lasting, and it may be difficult to train them out of the fear. (obviously something like that would have an effect at any time, but i guess they are just more sensitive around this time.) I never knew about it, but it makes total sense, as my first dog first started barking at men at this age, and unfortunately the first one she barked at kicked her and so she has never forgotten. She is much better now, loves men,  but everytime she sees this particular man she barks like a maniac. (hardly surprising IMO!) Most training books never mention it though, they only focus on the first few months so i guess no one ever knows about it, i certainly didn't and i have read ALOT!
Intersting that so far they are all bitches, so perhaps it is something to do with hormones.

In all probability Lucy it had something to do with the 'here, smell my hand first'.  If a dog doesn't make the first friendly approach then offering a hand will generally make them uneasy.  Certainly no one is allowed to do it to any of my dogs.

If that is so, why do experienced judges, vets etc offer their hand to a dog to sniff as an introductory move?

I don't know.  I don't show.  Perhaps show dogs are accustomed to it if it is the norm.  In my dealings with dogs that are worried or apprehensive it isn't a good thing to do.  I am not suggesting that Lucy's dog is but she did say it might be fear.

Sally, what would you suggest i do about it? Should i just forget about it and carry on as normal, avoid people altogether for a while, or make a point of being sociable? What with avoiding dogs with meg, i can't really avoid people for ellie, i'll run out of places to go!! ;-)

I'd just carry on as normal.  I'm sure she'll be fine.  :)

Sally
out of interest how do you approach a dog?? if not offering  a hand first what do you do?
Archer

I would always let the dog make the first move.  If you offer a hand to a dog who is friendly and not bothered about it then they'll probably sniff it just to humour you. :D 

I think there's a difference between letting the dog come to the hand, and stuffing a hand infront of a dogs nose isn't there?

Yes, I will stand with my hand by my side or crouch down with my arm on my knee and gently touch or stroke a dog if it approaches. 

Lucy, at one year old, your dog should know how to behave in that respect. I'm sorry to be blunt, but if you keep listening to these people that think saying, "no" or anyother correction is abusive and blame hormones, fear, this and that, find excuses for this behavior or that behavior, you're heading for more trouble with your dog. I have had and raised dogs for 45 + years, a lot of them with dominant, aggressive tendencies in their breed and have never had the problems I read on this and other message boards.

I'll tell you what I'd do. Of course, I'll have a landslide of people swarming over me as I would have bees, if I ran into a hive. I'll tell you what Doberman specific trainers, handlers and breeders have told me and I'll tell you what I did (I've had two incidences with two of my dogs) when my Doberman growled and made a lunging bark one time, and it was the last time, while on a leash, at a kid who I was talking to in a friendly way.

This was when he was about 4 or 5 months old. He's now 9. I jerked his collar, pulled him back and very, very sternly and loudly said, "NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!" I don't screw around at a time like that.  That behavior will not be tolerated by me when there is no threat. I don't care what his perception is. I don't care what he's thinking. I don't care if he associates kids with a scolding. He obviously didn't. (after a minute or so of calm, I gave the kid treats to feed him, then petted him and all was well) He will not be acting that way. PERIOD. And he hasn't since....not ever....not anything close. He has been amply socialized. At that time he was probably not enough to kids and probably confused on how he was suppose to act. They take some months to figure out that they don't have to go overboard. Well, he figured out quick. He has learned that he can and must restrain himself. And that THAT is all right. He takes things in, assesses, but does not fly off the handle. He is allowed and praised when he growls or barks at someone coming up the driveway or someone knocking on the door or a strange noise outside. That's what he's bred for. But when I am talking to a friendly stranger, in a friendly way, or even walking past a stranger, when no one is breaking down the door or hurting me, when I say "enough", he better zip it. And he knows that now. He has had enourmous amounts of socialization, every single day since I've had him. I drive to different places and make an occupation out of it. In fact, he plays with the neighbor kids now when they were sledding on my hill....thinks they're great, bounces, licks faces, wags his stubby tail, steals their sleds.....just great. When on a walk, a jogger has run right past us, inches from him....running! All he did was watch....that's it.

This dog has not been ruined. He knows what his job is. He knows when and at whom he should bark or growl. Some guy walked into my son's house, (where I was visiting for several days) in the middle of the night!  It was a friend of my son's that my dog and I didn't know....and the door had been left unlocked. It freaked me out when I awoke on the couch. Lyric sprang to his feet, off the couch where he too was sleeping, moved about 4 feet forward,  stood in front of me and squarely, tensing his muscles and fearlessly stood his ground, growling and barking. He did not lunge or bite this person. He merely warned in no uncertain terms until this guy backed out of the door. Anywhere I take him, he's now reserved, but gentlemanly and then in a minute, friendly to people. Perfect Doberman temperament.

Years ago, one of my Chihuahuas acted like that one time. Of course, I didn't jerk on that one's collar, (she doesn't wear one and she's too small) but she got scruffed and told "NO!" From then on, and it's been a long time, she's been fine, civil and even friendly to kids.

So don't get sucked into this modern don't tell your dog "no" b.s. or his self esteem will suffer.... Or that all he learned is to be afaid of you or all he learned is to control himself the one time and next time he'll bite someone. That's bulls*#@ My dogs are neither afraid of me, nor have ever, ever shown the slightest aggression since, and are still happy, playful, well mannered and well adjusted dogs. If a dog is mistreated, of course he'll be ruined, cowed and afraid of you.

Now, I'm not saying that your situation is the exact same thing. We have different breeds, different levels of aggression possibly, yours is a Golden Retriever, right? And mine is a Doberman Pinscher and  your dog's aggressive issue has gone on longer. Your dog may have the idea that this kind of action is OK with you because thus far, nothing has happened, no consequences. It can make a difference in how it should be handled. Your dog could be extremely sensative and the degree of discipline would need to be adjusted to be milder. I gave the maximum scolding that would not harm my dog because I know how far and how much. He's pretty sensative too, but not fearful. I would never dream of slapping or hurting him in any way. I love my dog, all my dogs. But I will tell them NO and whatever else is needed to get their attention without harming them.

I'm just saying what worked for me with my situation, my one single incident, my dog/ (s). You use your best judgement. You can also look at different sources. Look at what has worked for eons. Look at how those dogs turned out, the ones who are disciplined, but not abused, corrected, but not cowed. Look at the difference between teaching, being firm, insisting on your way of behaving and standing around waiting for the dog to "grow" out of it. It won't happen. Or waiting till the dog tells you what it's problem is, meanwhile the habits are sinking in.

There are those who adamantly disagree with me and think that telling your dog off is horrific abuse. That's fine if they want to think that. We all have our own opinions and ways of training dogs. Mine are all wonderful and happy and always have been for years. I love my dogs and being firm with them at times is the way they're taught. They are NOT mistreated, hit...not ever hit or otherwise harshly treated. There's a difference between FIRM, no monkey business and harsh, mistreatment. There is always lavish praise when behavior is corrected.

If someone has a better way that has been proven to work or been shown to work by practical experience, not just theory, that might be just the ticket for you. I'm not saying that there aren't other ways. I'm saying what worked for me in my particular situation.

If your dog is unduly afraid and cowering....no, I wouldn't use those above methods...just more socialization. I just re read your post. Yes let the dog approach people rather than the other way around.
Good luck.

Carrie, Dont hold back, tell us what you really think! (lol) ;-)

I didn't have much time when I edited my post, the last little part. If your dog is afraid, really afraid, then just socialize it more in a gentle way, where there are not too many people to overwhelm her. Does she like food? Give a treat to someone and see if she likes that. Or do you think she'll bite them? My Dobe is aloof, not extremely friendly with strangers, but civil. (That's the way this breed description is) If someone forces themselve and pushes to pat the dog, he often backs up, not timidly persay, but somewhat uneasy....doesn't like that. He needs his time to size the person up first, he looks at them, watches for a few seconds. Then it's OK. If they just stand there, he'll go to them in about 5 -10 seconds and sniff and then HE asks to be petted. He lays his ears back and points his nose up to them in a friendly gesture. So, when someone wants to pet him, I'll say to them to wait where they are and let him go to them. You can't expect the dog to accept pushy people that he doesn't know rushing into his space. However, if you're walking near someone and the person is not doing anything, and your dog lunges and barks and growls at them, NO NO NO NO NO. That is not accpetable in my book. That needs a correction. They are capable of understanding the difference. I've got proof in the pudding.

There are people however, who DO go right up to my dobe and he's still not aggressive. There are people who will squat down to his level in front of him and talk very confidently and rather boisterously and he loves it, goes right up and starts licking their faces. I will be watching that though as he gets older.  It's the timid people or ones that are afraid of Dobermans often, that he is more skeptical of. Funny.

Havoc,

Do you mean that in a nice, funny way or a mean way? I know....I'm terrible. I live alone and my dogs don't speak English so I get lonely for talking sometimes. Sorry.....I think I used up the whole Internet space.

Meant in a nice way Carrie! I just smiled to myself at how passionate your arguement was, and how you went straight 'in for the kill' against anyone that might have followed up with a counter arguement!  :-D  Your comments were 'straight from the heart' and based on real experience ;-)

For what its worth, I'm pretty much with you on aggression in dogs.

LOL, thanks Havoc. I probably come across rude I guess, but don't mean to. I do get passionate about things. I should have been an Italian, but I'm not. My rather non placid personality or the way I don't let my dogs push or get their own way too much is why they can hang out on the couch with me, choose the TV show, why they can go out the door before me or they can eat before me. LOL. It doesn't matter. They know exactly where the line is always.

Anything else....training things for obedience...no way do I ever scold. It's pretty much fun, not serious and if they or I mess up, we try again, all praise and treats, besides a tug on the leash when they need reminding, but it's not done in a harsh or rough, mean way. But behavior like that aggression stuff....no fun, especially if I were to let my dog get away with it and he bit someone and had to be euthanized or I got sued up the ying yang. So, I nipped it in the bud. Nagging, mildly scolding, waiting or letting it go on is harder on them in the long run IMO.

Thanks for your funny line. (are you a guy?) Havoc....hmmmm do you raise that a lot? Hee hee.

Carrie

Carrie,

"are you a guy?" - Guilty as charged!

"Havoc....hmmmm do you raise that a lot?"  -  What me? Nooooooo! ;-)

Its quite tricky not come come across as rude, opinionated or arrogant (like me! ;-) ) on forums like this, especially when you are trying to post quickly or just "know" you're right! (lol)

Most people on here seem to post with the best of intentions. I wouldnt want to offend anyone, but I'm happy enough to stir them up occasionally! ;-)

Havoc (Getting a sore eye from all this winking ;-) )

Havoc, you're too funny! What a guy!!! You're not arrogant at all. I'm not usually, but am sure to come across like that too...yes, opinionated. I should probably not even post on this board. You are much more diplomatic. I'll have to take a lesson from you in that.

Carrie

Hi, quick update. Ellie has been fine since the growling incident the other day. No problems at all, and still no season either. I presume it was just a one off incident, but will keep an eye on things in the future and makes sure she is socialised a bit more. Thanks for all your advice.

Super! You must be relieved. Yeah....keep exposing her to stuff. She'll be fine I bet.