I have a 10 month old Skye Terrier who I began showing 2 months ago.  I have never shown a dog before and would appreciate any advice.  She has begun to growl at judges on the table when they are going over/ examing her.  For her first three or four local shows she did absolutely fine, never made a sound on the table and was open and friendly to all including the judges.  Then we took her to an open show about a month ago where she seemed to be spooked by one of the judges.  She was first on the table,standing quietly as usual. The  judge approached from behind and put his hand under her chin as he moved round the side of her to her front.  She actually jumped and snapped at him, leaving us flabbergasted.  Since then, we have tried her in three local open shows and as soon as she is lifted on the table for the judge to examine, she begins to growl and doesn't stop until she is put on the floor off the table. She has growled at one lady and two male judges.  We would really like to nip this in the bud but have no idea at all of the best way to proceed. We are not sure whether to stop showing her for a while or to try and work through this.  We have a show type table at home that she uses and is quiet and calm.  She growls also on the table at ringcraft class.  She is friendly with strangers at shows when she is on her own table.  Is there anything I could try with her?

The first thing that I would do would be to talk to your breeder!  They know the breed and their lines in particular more than anyone else.  They mayhave had it happen before and will give you best advice for sorting it out - quickly!

I have been in touch with her breeder who also shows the breed. Skye terriers have a bit of a vocal, grumbly sort of personality but the breeder hasn't come across any that growl at judges on the show table.  That leaves me at a bit of a loss really as we have no experience at all.

Hello.

I am no expert and will willingly stand to be corrected but it sounds to me like she has been scared - she wasn't expecting the judge to do what he did, and it as you say "spooked her" SHe is also 10 months old and that is a  "scaredy age" everything even things that were fine before can be "made/perceived" to be something to be scared of by her. Lel on the board has a name for the "age scared thing" but I can't recall it.
As she is fine on her own table how about trying using her own table at the ringcraft for a while then she has that "safety net" in her mind and see how she reacts then. Then move on from that with a little bit of luck and a lot of work you may overcome it.
Karen   

Thanks Karen, I never thought of that.  Her own table at ringcraft might help her confidence again. 

No problem. Isn't that what the board is for, ideas you may not of thought of because your to close to it.
Hope it helps, I just thought ringcraft is there to help - so why not.
Karen   

Thats exactly it Karen, we can't see a way forward because we are inexperienced and too wrapped up in loving the dog.  Hopefully time will improve things.
Christine

what the others said sounds correct to me, but i wanted to add something.  when i got  my puppy, i practiced touching his feet, nails, gums, teeth, ears.....everything.  i did this a lot so he would get used to being touched on his body.  i didn't want to wait till he was a grown up to all of a sudden try to pry open his mouth to see his teeth.  anyhow, now he just lets me do anything (except we're still workiing on cutting nails.)  anyhow, i would suggest doing this with your dog, maybe what ever scared him before will become so comonplace with you touching him all the time, he will not be scared.  dogs need to be socialized to people and situations AND touches.
hopefully this will get better because, if i am correct, in the US at least, your dog will be disqualified from a conformation show if he growls at a judge beecause that shows temperment. 
but your dog is only 10 mos. so you should be able to nip it in the bud.  didn't the breeder have any suggestions or advise?  or did she just say she doesn't have that problem?  if you paid this breeder good money, they really ought to help you out!

Hi elija, I have touched prodded and stroked her feet, mouth etc since we first had her at 9 weeks. She is very comfortable with me and the rest of the family doing this.  Like you, cutting nails takes a bit more patience and effort!  Her breeder has looked her over. When our dog growled as she went over her, she said that the dog wasn't being aggressive she was just nervous.  The breeder hasn't offered any advice on how to control it other than, 'hopefully she will grow out of it'. I honestly dont think the breeder has any idea what we should do.  The breeder also shows dogs but has never come across it before.  I think because she is still a puppy and only in local open shows, the judges wont place her, which is fair enough.  I have heard that when she is older it will mean immediate disqualification, hope we don't go there, would rarther throw in the towel I think.  With some worthwhile suggestions from the forum users, we have some things to try and are hopeful we can help her over this.  Some people have said to be hard on her,withdraw comfort, tap her nose, or use water sprays on her when she growls, but wouldn't that just make her more fearful?

yeah, i wouldn't do anything hard or harsh to her.  if you think this growling is from fear, i would give a simple "no".  not in a harsh voicee, but in one that the dog knows as being a "correction".  i wouldn't make a big deal out of the growling.  maybe have your friends or people that you know that aren't in your family, work on touching her?  that might help her get used to strangeers doing it?

I couldn't bring myself to punish her when her problem seems to be a fear response.  I try not to make a big deal of the growling and have tried a simple 'no' soothing words and treats .... she growls through them all.  Of course if it wasn't for the showing side of things it wouldn't matter because she is the cutest, quirkiest, happiest little puppy anyone could wish for.  I wondered if most dog showing people would rest the dog and try again later, or continue through it.  A very good suggestion from the forum today is to take her to shows without putting her in the ring for a while.

>>Some people have said to be hard on her,withdraw comfort, tap her nose, or use water sprays on her when she growls, but wouldn't that just make her more fearful?

The dog that is punished, told off or just told 'No' for growling will likely just skip to the biting.  Ever heard of a dog that bit without warning?

To punish a dog for being afraid is the pits.

Hi Sally, I agree with you, but its nice to hear it anyway.  I can't see any point in punishing a frightened dog.  I have never lifted a finger to a dog in my life and never would, but some people at shows have suggested that we are not hard enough on her, like she is deliberately being agressive or challenging our authority.  Surely the key is confindence building not punishment.
Christine

:)

We seem to have two threads here so I'll stick it on both.  Probably get into trouble.

The judge that took her by surprise obviously frightened her because of her reaction.  Some dogs would have been unaffected but some will learn from a single frightening experience to become defensive in a similar situation, especially if the escape option isn't open to them. 
Dogs growl when they are uncomfortable.   If nothing bad ever happens again and nobody reacts to the growl then she may just be fine but there is also a possibility that her growl meant  "Stop this or I may have to bite you because I am in fear for my life" in which case ignoring it would be silly. :(   If she was mine I would take her to a show a few times but not put her in the ring and then when her confidence returns set her up on someone else's table at a show with a volunteer judge.

Thanks Sally, what you say makes perfect sense in that she is displaying a defence reaction when she cannot escape.  Its understandable in the circumstances.  I will take her to a couple of shows without going in the ring, it might just be the confidence boost she needs to get back on track.

If this is stemming from fear, not outright aggression, is there a way to practice at home with friends going over her? Is she like that at the vets? You could be standing right there and ask a friend to pat her, then lift her lip a little, then her feet or whatever, giving her treats all along the way etc. If she gives a growl, I would stop the treats and not use your soothing voice or she'll take that as reward for growling. Then the minute she quiets, start back at the beginning with the patting all over. When she's ok with that, the legs, the lip...just gradually increase body parts to go over.

When/if she is comfortable with that, advance to someone she doesn't know....when you take her places. Has she been well socialized all along? Is she comfortable with strangers if they're not touching her? Have you had anyone besides family practice going over her since she was younger, with their hands while she stands? I'd just start habituating her gradually to that. And then take her to a show to watch only. And just start over basically.

Thanks for your advice Carrie.  Yes, I beleive it to be fear not aggression as she is friendly to strangers usually.  When I take her for walks off the lead she approaches strangers and loves to be stroked.  She started ringcraft at 5 months where strangers regularly go over her and was doing absolutly brilliantly until a show about a month ago when she got spooked by a judge who approached her from behind.  What you advise is really constructive and detailed and I am itching to try that technique with her and some of my friends.  If I can think of it as starting from the beginning again, bit by bit hopefully we will get there. 

Hello there, I did once have this problem with a young cocker. I think it is important you sort this out now not just from a show point of view but for future visits to the vet and other times when your dog will need to be handled. Your dog sounds scared and you need to make it aware nothing terrible is going to happen and something nice will. Presumably it does not growl at you? I would gently put the dog on the table at home and inspect it as the Judge would do, talk to it all the time reasuringly then give a tasty treat and lots of praise when you finish . Get members of your family whom the dog trusts to do the same thing and do it often. You could use a toy for reward instead of a treat if the dog is more toy orientated. I hope this works for you,it did for me. :-D

Hi there, thanks for your reply, at least I am not the only one to have had this problem.  Last time I took the puppy to the vet, she was fine on the table but that was before she began growling in the showring.  She loves her table at home and is as good as gold when family members and friends she knows go over her.  She likes her tasty treat and praise afterwards.  We go over her at least once a day, more if other people come and she is always quiet.  Its so difficult to get her out of when she is so good at home.  Still its lovely to know it worked for you, and with perserverence I hope it will for us to.  Thanks for your help :)
Christine

Don't know what happened but thought I posted a reply to this thread hours ago (Lord knows where that went :) ).  Anyway, my suggestion was similar to Carries, in that I thought you could start with a situation which she feel comfortable with - own table and you going over her, and treat her whilst doing it.  then progress gradually to a 'stranger' going over her (still on her own table with lots of treats), then do the same at a show, and then maybe borrow someone elses table and you go over her, treating her, and finally  have a 'stranger' go over her on the borrowed table.  Obviously do not progress to each step until she is totally comfortable with the one you are doing (and not growling) and maybe she will learn to associate it with a pleasant experience (treats).

This worked for my dog, who went through a stage when she was about 10 months old and didn't want anyone to look at her mouth.  Tasty liver soon meant she didn't mind at all!

Fiona

If she's afraid, tail tucked or shaking or whatever (it's so hard across the Internet when we can't see her body language) naturally you don't want to scold her and make her worse. HOWEVER, if she is growling at a stranger doing this, there's nothing wrong IMO with quietly and unemotionally saying, "no." In other words, you take a big, deep breath and exhale so you yourself will relax while your hands are on her along with the stranger's. She'll feel your calm through your hands. (This was very important when I was training green and volatile horses, although I used another word, not "no" because it rhymes with whoa. LOL) The "no" in a low, steady voice is like......in other words, "you're ok, and there's no need to growl. 'We' don't growl. Mommy doesn't like that. It's rude." She can learn to restrain herself while she is being calmed and adjusting to hands going over her by a stranger. "No" is not only a scolding word. A lot depends on your tone and the aire about you or aura. It can also be a sort of soothing warning from you. She can learn that she has no business warning you or a judge, let alone biting. That shouldn't come up in the first place. But it has, so I would approach that concept with her, take her little hand in yours and walk with her decisively....or step up to the plate without overbearing or going over the mark. I don't know if that makes sense.

For instance...you have a shy 6 yr old child and you're walking with her up to someone's house she doesn't know. You're holding her hand. She sees the person and starts throwing a temper tantrum. She doesn't want to go in the house and she starts screaming at the top of her lungs "I hate you!!!!" to the person. Do you ignore it, let it go, wait for her to stop, try to find out what her deep seated problem is.... solve that? (that could take an awfully long time) Or could you instead, whisper, "That is not polite. I know you're uncomfortable with this, but we're going inside and you must be polite. It hurts feelings when you say things like that. I think everything will be all right in a minute. I bet you'll get a cookie from our friend and I think he has some nice toys inside." (you better hope he does)

What would happen if you turned and went back to your car and didn't go in the friends house? What did she just learn that she could control and by what methods she could control it?

Of course, you're thinking that that is a child who you can explain things to. But with a dog you can with your tone and body language, your demeanor, your inner feelings will come through to her if you relax, to a point at least. So, my feeling is that you use that quiet "No" and then when you're done with the session, or during the session or at another time, you figure out what the problem is and do other things as well to work from the inside out so to speak.

Like a wound healing....It's better if it heals from the inside toward the outside, less scarring. But you can't leave it gaping on the outside either. You have to close it, at least part way (if it's a big wound)   or you may lose too much blood or it may get infected. If the dog continues the habit or the "it's OK to growl. It's OK to warn these humans to keep off" it will have a hard time learning restraint and self control. The infection of habit will sink in even more.

I probably sound like I'm on some kind of drugs. But no, never ever. This kind of feeling thingy comes from working with animals for a while now. They're infecting my brain. LOL

Carrie

Hi Carrie, thanks for your reply.  Yours is a great way to look at things and I can tell comes from the heart of experience.  I hope you don't mind but I am going to print off what you said to remind myself, as we venture forward toward a happier and more relaxed puppy and handler.  Thanks so much for your insight and all the brilliant advice given by the forum members ..... we are not alone :D
Christine

Hi, thanks for your reply and your sound advice.  Everything you say makes sense to try, its just so hard to see it ourselves cos we are emotionally involved I suppose.  Pehaps tasty liver may be the turning point for her as well and we will definately try some.
Christine

Signconfused,

I hope it helps. As I've said, many here don't agree with that. So you should probably look at different methods. I'm certainly not a professional, never trained dogs for an occupation.

People, I think are sometimes looking at, for instance the word "no" itself. I think some people are looking at things they've learned, but have learned by rote. They see only the obvious. I could be wrong on that though.

We all know that dogs learn words and their meanings. And that they're not as intelligent as humans to be expected to understand inconsistancy in our use of the words or commands. You can't use sit one time and be seated the next and sitzensee(phonetic) the next. (not until they learn the diffent words, which they can in time) However, I think they understand words two fold or in two ways...the word itself, like no... the meaning. And the tone used to vary the meaning or conotation. If I say "NO!" sharply with some volume, which I do my fair share of, they know that they're being scolded, that they must stop and I don't want them to do that again and they stop doing what they're doing, then they're praised. I mean, it's a serious crime, like jumping on my beautiful car and scratching it. I dont have time to dig for my clicker and wait till they stop. They need to get the hell off my car NOW. Then when they're off, I'll praise.

If they're not doing anything too horrible, or they're about to, but haven't quite yet, I'm not going to yell, "NO!" That's too harsh when the crime hasn't been committed yet or if it's not a federal offence. I'll say it like you might a little child as a warning, "no, no Lyric...." or "eh, eh, eh." It's almost baby talk. He knows he needs to stop, but he's not feeling scolded or squelched down. It's a gentle "no no." He is not crushed by this.

When I talk about a low, (alto voice, LOL) calm, steadying monotone "noooo" he also doesn't feel scolded. He knows he needs to stop, but it's not a punishment AND that it's going to be all right when he stops, that he can stop and not getting to have his own way isn't going to ruin his life.

There are situations where I can use the words "leave it." That's when he's going to get something I don't want him to have, like a pair of shoes or one of the Chihuahuas. But the "no" covers things that I don't have words for otherwise. Learing a huge vocabulary takes time and age. It's not volumes and volumes in a young puppy. So I find that tones of voice, attitude, whatever is exuding from me speaks volumes. In other words, you have a word and what it means and you have slight differences in connotation and the context with which it is used. I see that dogs do pick up on this. Horses pick up on it and they're not nearly as intelligent as a dog.

Using the horses as an example....I can say, "Whoa!" in a short, staccato, immenent sounding voice and the cantering horse stops on a dime. I can draw it out, "Wh-o-o-o-o-a-a-a" in a descending scale almost and with a quiet, soothing voice and the horse will slow down gradually. I don't need two different words. Of course there are things I do with my seat and hands that assist that. But my horses were always trained by voice commands and physical commands in most areas. Some things you just really need to do with your rear end muscles, like pushing them over to the wall, (a leg yield...in dressage) etc. Sometimes you don't want to use your voice so you need to rely on physical. Sometimes visa versa.

Anyhow, like I said, I'm not an expert dog trainer. My dogs aren't perfect by any means. I don't care for perfect with my lifestyle. So, you should take what anyone says, especially me (LOL) with a grain of salt. These are just my experiences, or what I've seen work along the way with my dogs. Dogs are individuals and what works with one, may not work well with another, depending on a lot of things, their temperament, sensativity etc. I have a mix from extremely sensative to not so sensative and vary everything accordingly from dog to dog. It's not even done very consciously.

I think your dog will come around. Just be patient, gentle but decisive or forward moving, confident. Let us know.

Carrie

I have to reiterate. (as if my posts aren't long enough) When I talk about saying "NO" sharply, I don't use that tone with my girl Chihuahua ever...not too sharply or loud. She's very, very sensative, would be crushed to the core and would need to see a therapist and take Prozac. My Lyric, the Dobe pup is also quite sensative. We must never frighten our dogs or make them dull to our voice. That's why I try to emphasise the positive reinforcement when practical. I only talked about the negative aspect. That's much less used than trying to play up the positive. Like when Lyric is getting a bit to pushy and playful with the Chi's, I don't necessarily have to say NO. If it's just beginning, I can say, "be gennntle." (in a gentle voice) He will usually settle down. (he knows that word)  But if not, then I have to tell him, "leave it", firmly, then when he does,  "good leave it."  I can't wait till he hurts them. So, you see what I mean? It's not cut and dry... these things are generalizations and judgement has to be used all the time with everything, with each individual dog, with each various aspect.

Thanks Carrie, I am taking in everything everyone has said and have loads of plans now to move forward with her.  People are talking the logic lost to us in our stress and I am very grateful.  Come to think of it, tone if very important to animals, and we check and recheck our tone with them all the time, like you say, automatically without thinking.  Perhaps we have been thinking too much and should do what comes naturally with the dog, back to basic rules and roles without trying to decipher too much what we are actually doing.  I think we need to tune in to our dogs wavelength again before we can get anywhere, because like people, they are all unique even if essentially similar.  Calmness and continuity of reaction from us, lots of love and practice so she feels safe, and I think we will be away.  Thanks Carrie and everyone who has helped ..... we are off to practise :D

Yes, absolutely. That's why my posts are so long. I don't exactly analyze everything...it just comes naturally, that feeling. So when you try to describe it, it comes out so dang long. I appologize for that.

I think clicker training is marvelous and use that too. With teaching things like obedience or some trick, that shaping the behavior is really effective. You get close to what you want and mark that behavior, then reward. Then you little by little up the ante until you get the behavior presicely to your goal.

It's the odd behavior things that I can't spend the time to shape, like things that are of imenant danger or destruction that I use the more "firm" approach. That works too and even though they're told no about something, that doesn't ruin their spirits...not the way I do it....They don't mind being shown that you don't like something when you're not cruel or frightening.... they're still extremely happy dogs. So, I guess I go for moderation in all things. I'm not extreme in either way.

It sounds like things will all work out. You have a good plan it sounds like and lots of things to mull over. Sometimes a little of this and a little of that way works well. Good luck.

Carrie