I read this in another thread what does it mean? behaviourists please explain  it to me as for the life of me i dont understand it

It means that food, toys and attention are used as rewards for training and good behaviour.

We used this method with my chocolate lab and it's worked out well. Any time that he wants something, he has to do something for it. For instance, we make him sit or lay down before we feed him, sit before opening the door, sit before giving him a bone, etc. We were told to use this method because our lab can be very demanding and now instead of barking his head off to go outside, he sits in front of the door.

yes, i've decided this is a great way to raise a pup to know that you are in charge.  if they have to sit or stay or whatever before you feed, pet, or let them out, they know that you are saying how it is, not them.  this could be an important thing to employ for people that have dominant dogs or dogs that have gotten out of control within the household.  it isn't meant to be harsh, just to show them that they need to earn what they want.

sounds very much like things my mother did donkeys years ago when we were children she used to make the dog beg for his food and balanced titbits on his nose till  he would be told he could have it.and think it was a good idea :(

We have had labradors in here with food aggression because they have been made to wait  too long before eating they end up being so obsessed with the food some have become aggressive also one man thought it was right (as a behaviourist told him) to take the bowl away several times whilst the dog was eating, just to be able to we had some fun with that dog  I can tell you.
I also had a disagreement with yet another man who was signing a dog in and said Oh by the way one day in seven we fast him ! I said what do you mean? he said leave him without food its good for him! I said when do you decide which day? he said oh any will do they do it in the wild you know ,I said how do you know? he said someone had told him,I said maybe you should try it yourself  !!
I'm not terribly keen on these ideas for dogs except maybe sitting whilst you put the bowl down ,I say "Wait" whilst I open the door

But looking at how children can be these days would be a fabulous idea ,in my childhood you wouldnt get something without doing something for it,so maybe it could be very useful for children :) :)

Wasnt this approach advocated by John Fisher and didnt he revise it in his last book? He used it in Dogwise with a pushy GSD being trained as a police dog and in Think Dog with some very bossy dogs, then it got generalised to all dogs. Any idea can be taken to extremes and abused as youve seen in rescue. We control all aspects of the dogs life anyway, theyre smart enough to work it out so I dont see any point in rubbing their noses in it, but thats different from finding out what motivates your dog and using it to promote good behaviour. And it does work on kids :) the difficulty with nothing is free in kids is you can squeeze out altruism so the little monsters demand WIIFM before doing anything, which is perhaps what goes wrong in our community today.

Lorelei, I think that was more likely the DRP - rank/dominance reduction programme that you are thinking about.  John was questioning the validity of this before his death and how it was causing depression in a lot of dogs.  It isn't the same as earning your dinner.
Sally

Thank you. I must be more precise. Cos Im too lazy to walk upstairs and get the book out, what is the difference between earning your dinner and DRP - I think DRP means every bit of attention, food, etc has to be earned on the owners terms and keep the dog beneath you etc, so its a scale difference. Earning your dinner is fine by me BTW as Morse will eat better if he has to work for it like finding it hidden or undoing a kong

DRP is more about you eating before the dog, nothing to do with him having to earn it.  No getting on furniture, beds etc.  No access to all the house and lots of ignoring the dog.  Can't do any of that and never have. ;)
Sally

Mattie, I don't actually make my dogs wait for their food although they would if I wanted them to.  I agree with you that it can make some dogs irritable around their food.  I have a dog that is very food aggressive, she'll even guard the oven when something is cooking if I let her, which I don't of course. ;)  The most likely cause of food aggression is trough fed pups that have to fight for their share and then the wrong handling of the pup by the new owner, such as punishment for growling or taking food away.  Anyway back to my point - if I was using a NILIF programme for any of my dogs they wouldn't get food in a bowl and have to wait for it - their food would be used for training.  For example if a young dog was learning weave poles then their dinner would be used as rewards during the twenty or so training sessions a day that you need when learning to weave.  If a dog has been a bit lax on recall then their dinner would come out on the walk with us.  My Afghan didn't get food in a bowl, unless I was really pushed for time, until she was about seven months old.  That is how determined I was to prove everyone wrong when they said "You're getting a what"   It paid off - she is extremely motivated by food and pretty well trained. It isn't about begging and balancng titbits although there is nothing wrong with teaching that to dogs it's about getting your dog to earn what is valuable to him for basic good behaviour the same as we have to go out to work to earn the money to buy it. :)
Sally

>>>The most likely cause of food aggression is trough fed pups that have to fight for their share <<<

Puppies fight for their share from the minute they are born the first thing they do is seek out their Mum when you watch pups pushing each other away to get on the "milk bar" they can be quite strongwilled  about it.I would say it was trough fed pups denied enough food to satisfy them or food taken away or Food  being  made an issue of.
When I have a litter which is not very often these  days when weaning I get them eating off my hand then when thats done graduate to a flat dish on the floor a big one so that the slow learners will copy the litter mates eventually I give them several dishes so that though they are learning to share they also get their fair share,so for the sake of freindly argument sally my pups having brought up this way what if you took one? and then went to your No bowl system,what would happen then?.
I feel that the things dogs love in life is their humans,their food,their excersise and these should be theirs by right not earned like we take the biggest things for granted with our dogs their utter devotion to us.
Also I can safely put down a large dish with milk or biscuits on the floor at my house and all my dogs will dive in without a cross word to each other they are taught to share when young and food is plentiful and avaliable here.
Each to their own methods tried and true but NILFF would not do for my dogs or me.

'Fraid it would not work for me either - can you imagine cutting up a chicken carcass or breast of lamb into tiny pieces although I suppose I could carry a bowl of mince and a teaspoon around :D

I do cut down on meal size when training though as they get so many "treats"

:)

Aha! To fix recalls from distractions all I need is a large raw chicken or lamb breast to lob up the field :D he can eat it or be stunned by it! Just kidding honest :D

Mattie thats a good point about not taking dogs for granted, I hope I never will.

I think is nice we can discuss matters like this with a sense of humour all too often posts take off on a tangent with people being rude to each other we all have our own ideas for our dogs and its nice to share opinions .
Have you noticed how in a litter of pups there is always one first for eveything quite often the biggest cheekiest one,we always call that one "big Duggie" but usually they make just the same size as the others and the smallest one is not always the weakest (they were reffererd to as Runts at one time can go on to be the best of the lot.

I should have said trough fed pups where food is not plentiful. Sorry.  

I think you misunderstand my no bowl system.  I would never withhold food, just give it one piece at a time during training.  Letitia loved all the extra attention that she was getting, she still got her dinner but it was even more of a high spot in her day than it would have normally been. :)  I only have to pick up a clicker nowadays and she's first in the queue. She is still a very aloof, independant dog, as she should be and who knows how she would have turned out without the early training but I am certainly glad that I did it.  She gets three or four off lead runs a day which I'm willing to bet the majority of Afghan Hounds don't, and because she is drop dead gorgeous as well as being well trained and highly motivated by food she gets a bit of media work occasionally so she really does earn her keep. :D

It is very rare for my dogs to have to earn their dinner, only my poor husband has to do that and attention rarely has to be earned because I'm a pushover (for the dogs that is, not hubby ;) ).  I do restrict their access to certain toys as this works brilliantly for collies that are training for Agility competition.

The NILIF programme is used to great effect by people who have maybe made mistakes when bringing up a pup, yet do not want to punish or unduly correct to get control.  If you want to use reward training then you have to have something to reward with.  The dog that gets everything he wants for free is going to be very difficult to motivate.

Sally

Well well got back from shopping and there is a letter here addressed to Labrador rescue it says this lady is a canine bahaviourist with letters after name and will I put some of her  business cards out.
She charges £85 per hour plus travelling expences but will give a written report.
In my veiw if you go to work you pay your own travelling expences and on that amount of money blimey no wonder its a profession to be in.
So all the people on here offering their knowledge and advice for free  could be coining it in ;) (tongue in cheek dont shoot me)

Well Mattie, as you will see from the Dog Behaviour Course I passed my course with Distinction so folks - donation to Dobermann Rescues for each piece of advice I give please - regardless of whether it is any good or not :D

Congratulations Kerioak :) How long was the course? Do we now have to call you our Distinguished Friend? John, JG, tohme, Dill, Brainless and the rest of the veteran Champdoggers will also need a title or therell be a scrap to sort out the hierarchy :D

I don't think suitable titles for this vgeteran are printable on a public forum, oh you made me laugh soooo :D :D :D

Is that veteran, vegetarian or vegan :D :D :D

Just wondering what those letters after the name might be Mattie?  Do they indicate membership of an organisation?  Or academic qualifications?.........

sorry digger hadnt seen your question its BSc Hons canine behaviourist

I wasn't aware there was such a qualification.........

wow, sally, that certainly is exciting.  if i saw my pups face on a billboard, i might run off the road too!!!   lol

I wonder if the tax man has twigged yet?

Why do you assume that they don't pay tax?

I have not assumed anything. 

after reading all of this, i am confused.   i always the the nilif was great idea.   you guys are making it sound awful, like the dogs are being teased or denied their basic rights.....i don't think that is how this nilif program is supposed to work. 
when i say make them wait before thier dinner, im talking about saying "sit eli" and when he does, i put his food down.  it is a matter of 1 sec. not like a half an hour!  or when i open the door, i make him sit for a moment as i open the screen so that he is bursting out and knocking whoever over.  it isn't that im making him wait for hours to play outside or to eat....that would be teasing and cruel.  im talking about teaching a few manners and showing the dog that he doesn't run the show.  i like to be a partnership with my dog, that means neither of us is ovebearing, but especially not him.
i agree that some of this is not conscious stuff im doing. i can be the boss and show eli that i am without always employing nilif consiously, but it is in my overall demeanor that he knows.  he doesn't jump on people or beg for food obnoxiously.  his manners are quite nice and he certainly isn't deprived of joy in his life.  i have acres and acres where i live that eli is free to explore with me. 
anyhow, that is just my take on nilif.

I agree Elija, my take on NILIF was NOT to make a dog wait and wait, but just to obey a simple command before he gets what he wants. Just to pick up on the taking dinner out on walks for dogs with bad recall. This is a great idea in theory but in practice, feeding a dog his dinner while he tear arses around can be quite dangerous, especially in deep chested breeds such as whippets, greyhounds, and afghans. It can bring on a life threatening condition- bloat

I would have thought it would be very frustrating for the dog to get his dinner handed to him piece by piece,at least let him enjoy a full meal out of a bowl once a day and give him some time off of training for 5 minutes.

christine :)

yes, i would give the dog his meals all at once.  not piece by piece.  that sounds like teasing or just plain wierd.  and harriette is right, if you feed a dog his whole meal and then let him run  hard, he risks getting bloat which can easily be lethal.
if you want to treat, use treats, not his meals.  the nilif is just that he gets his whole meal at once, he just has to sit or something right before you set down the bowl.  not that big of a deal for the dog or for the person. 

My dogs love working for their dinner as anyone else who clicker trains their dogs will confirm and they don't tear ass around they stay with me. :)

I think Elija meant that IF they run or are allowed free rip roarin' exercise right after a big meal, they can have problems, not that your dogs aren't with you.

In nature, dogs may get unlucky hunting one day and not get to eat at all. Then when they do have something, they tend to gorge. Our dogs aren't far removed genetically at any rate, from wolves. So my feeling is (for my own dogs)that it's more natural and enjoyable to them to get to "sit down at the table" for a bowl of food. What I do, because I do use a lot of treats, is cut their meal down a tad and cut up their treats really small. So there's a compromise. They still get a bowl of food and are left to enjoy it, but they also get treats. The difference or the lessening of the food is not to the point of their missing out on a balanced diet. (I don't use an excessive amount of treats) I use very tiny liver treats that I make homemade, monzerella cheese, Cheerios....that sort of thing.

So, there is a happy medium if anyone wants to do it that way. But as far as motivation to work if they're a little hungry....even if they're tummies are fully satisfied from that bowl of food, you'd never know it when I get out those liver treats. They act like they've been starved for a week. And they're maxed out on their proper weight, let me tell you. They can't afford to gain anymore. (well, not Lyric...he's lean...not mean) LOL. Maybe though, some dogs aren't as food motivated as my little pigs are.

Well cotton pick it!!!!! If these things weren't so narrow, my posts wouldn't be as long. LOL  G-r-r-r-r

sally, what carrie assumed i was saying is correct. 
what do you mean your dogs don't tear around?  what a shame. my dog has a big yard to run in and enjoys sprinting around and stretching out his body.  boy, he looks free and happy out there.  i guess this means he doesn't ALWAYS stay with me.
what i meant earlier is that right after eating and right before eating, i don't allow him to run hard.  haven't you ever heard of bloat?

I was replying to someone else who said they shouldn't be tear assing around and eating.  My dogs have lots of free running, lots of yummy treats and once in a blue moon work for their dinner.  And last week Jazz really did work for his dinner.  He earned £250 for eating a bowlful of food on cue on camera. :D  So thats lots more yummy treats and some new toys for all of them. ;)

That sounds exciting how  did you get into that? is it an agency? I often wonder where the pets come from on the TV Ive heard of peoples dogs being used but not how they get into it.

This one was an educational video and it was through my son-in-law's friend who works for the company that we were approached.  I have done a few things through an agency.  Last year my Afghan was on billboards all over the country in a Lynx advert.  God knows how I didn't crash the car every time I saw it - I got so exited. :D  I also embarrassingly had to buy a men's magazine when someone told me it was in there so that I had one to keep, only to discover it was in a Sainsbury's magazine the following week.  We've also been in an American T.V. programme about the American Embassy in London and a couple of other things.  Most of the agencies have their own dogs and other animals so I don't expect it's that easy to get into.  I think I only got into it because of my clever Afghan and being 'in dogs, as it were'

I'm very glad to hear that your dogs are allowed a good run Sally, just hope you don't feed them dinner while they are tear arsing. Being a trainer I'm sure you must know this already and know what you are doing but there are people who read these threads just for information, I wouldn't want any new dog owner getting the impression that it is OK to give a dog it's dinner while it exercises.

I hope I didn't give that impression. I'm sure I said earlier that they don't tear ass around when they are eating.

No not in your original post, you said>>>>>>If a dog has been a bit lax on recall then their dinner would come out on the walk with us.>>>>> That is what gave me the impression of feeding  while running in the first place, most people give their dogs free running exercise while out on "a walk" so that is the reason I picked up on this point just in case new dog owners got the same impression as I got. Thanks for clarifying.

Fair doos I did say that - easily misunderstood.  If they were having recall probs, and this has happened to me twice with two dogs (out of twelve current and seven at rainbow bridge) then they have had a long line on anyway.  I do still give food whilst out, it may be treats it may be part of their daily food ration.  They don't run before or after a meal though and they always have at least 5 hours between meals and swimming.