Anybody help with information ,I have been told this afternoon that some one
that I know has set up as a dog breeder. But she seems to be breeding pups from her bitches one after the other, Is this normal I have a seen a nice boxer that comes from her bitch but he is ten months old and the bitch was ready to drop another litter that week.

It is common practice for "breeders" who breed purely for profit to have consecutive litters from their bitches.This usually happens year in year out and the resulting offspring tend to end up in rescue :-( Occasionally, a bitch who "misses" etc will be mated on her next season. Its not unheard of for supposedly "reputable" breeders, to having the odd consecutive litter too.

Thanks leigh :) think this is for gain it's such a shame I think a top price is asked for the puppies and I think three bitches are going all the time now.

Poor bitches. Lets hope the tax man catches up with her.

Yes you are right on that point, this party would never declare little sideline.

You could always drop a little note to the Tax Man yourself. I would if it was me.

Fiona

She will not be able to register the litter with the KC unless she lies about the bitch who was the dam. Worring Jackie H

If she is breeding more than 5 litters, you should contact the council, as she should be registered, and will require to abide by quite stringent accomodation and care standards, they may also require a change of u=se on her property, and apply buisness rates if they think her place suitable as a breeding establishment!

Now this is very interesting last year 3 bitches at once gave birth to 5 and 7 puppies
each ,I think she owns 4-5 bitches and the kennels are clean and in the garden .
but I bet the council dont know !!

Those breeders that require a breeders license, (five litters or more bred a year) have to have a year between litters, and the KC have brought everyone around to this rule when registering, though they will allow a second litter for those breeders not required to be licensed in under a year with veterinary support! I belleive this permission has to be sought prior to mating.

In my breed it would be considered unethical to breed on consecutive seasons or to have more than 4 litters from any bitch, and the bitch should be over 2 years old and hip scored and hold current eye test certificate! The KC will register pups from bitches over 1 and under 8 years old only, and only one litter a year, except as pointed out above.

You make me really tempted ,And this greedy persons charges up to £500 a pup.
I am not jealous of her getting all this spare cash, But feel sorry for the dogs at the end of the breeding they are just sold having had no home life at all, Then folks must have problems house training them.

HI lEIGH.Is it me or is it easy to bend the rules of the Kennel club if you are an unscrupulous breeder.Just making a few enquiries seems to me you can bend things to your way round if you are a back street I will not even call them breeders.

Patricia

Hi. I know of one lady, very well respected in the breed for always breeds to the improvement of the dogs, BUT, and its really rather a big but really, she has 3 bitches, her daughter has 2 bitches and she contracts a lot of the bitches she sells, making them use her stud dogs, of which she has 3 and her daughter has one, all the same line. She is (directly and indirrectly) one of THE largest producers of registered litters year on year - and boy is she unscruppulous! Yet she consistently breeds champions, so i think the fact that she produces so many pups is overlooked. Essentially she is a reputable puppy farmer . And she sells her pups for £500 a peice even though the standard price is £400 - £450, and many other breeders tell you nevr to pay above £400.
Oh well, feel somewhat useless really, especially as they are breeding in so much that recessive genes are getting the upper hand - though the dogs themselves conform to type

Where money is to be made, people will always find a way Patricia ;-) Lets not forget that the KC is also a money making organisation. You didn't think it was there for the good of dogs did you :rolleyes:

Hi Patricia, report them!!!!!! To your local dog warden at forst as they deal with licencing of kennels.

There is a GSD breeder near me who breeds her bitch's twice a year and she has around 15. One litter is registered with the KC and the other litter is sold out un registerd at £150 per pup. Making money hand over fist. Prove it!!!!

I have seen bitch's that have been subject to this type of breeding, they look horrendous!!!!!

As a private breeder you can breed from a bitch twice per year when not producing more than 5 litters. You can download a form from the KC website to do this, you need prior consent from a vet and the KC to do it or else they can not be registered.

I agree with another poster, wait until they are 18 months to 2 years, no more than 4 litters over 4 years, have them spayed and let them live out their lives in peace and luxury.

Ian

I think that for most breeds, two litters in their lifetime is plenty, as you should really only be interested in replacements for yourself, and you should surely get sufficient choice from two litters of you do your homework well in the first place.

I suppose you could have a bit of lee-way in breeds with small numbers in the litters

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo,
I agree with what you are saying if you are a hobby or replacement breeder. I am talking from the standpoint of a more proffessional and commercial basis.

It is cruel and unnecessary to abuse a bitch by making her have so many litters. I would rather my dogs be fit and health both mentally and physically, they are my best advertisment. My eldest bitch is 4, she is just about to have her last litter and she will be spayed. She will have produced 3 very healthy litters and has been a superb mum.

She will live out her days as my wifes pampered pooch and house dog. Unlike many a brood bitch who is cast onto the streets to fend for herself or taken to a rescue shelter or worse still bound up and thrown in the canal.

There are people who breed dogs and there are people who abuse their capability to breed dogs. The abusers should be banned from animal ownership.

Ian

Ian - are you telling me that because I only have one litter a year (at most) I can't possibly be professional about it?

I think you need to reassess your terminology a little - believe me - I hope that I am one of the most professional people around if ability to produce puppies capable of a high standard of both work and show is used a a yardstick.

I think that no-one in this day and age should be a 'commercial' breeder; I'm afraid I think it's totally unethical

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Jo,
I think you know what I mean, your reply is argumentative and not really called for. You can of course be proffessional if you produce 1 litter every 10 years.

But if you require an analogy it is the difference between someone who changes the oil in their car every 6 months and a mechanic who does it every day. Familiarity in this case does not cause contemp if just gives you a greater scope for learning more. I learn with every litter.

It stands to reason that someone producing 5 litters per year ans who spends great time and effort on those litters is going to be more experienced and more proffessional in certain ways than someone who's mum and dad had their GSD mated when they were 8 years old and can remember the whole thing.

Or maybwe another analogy if required would be in the case of a plumber. I can solder pipes and put garden taps in, I even have book on how to fit our own central heating syste. I have in fact fitted a few radiators etc. But that does not make me a plumber, I would not have the confidence to put a central heating system in even though I know how it is done.

Is that clear enough now?

Breeding dogs to my mind cannot be likened to a proffession, citing that the more experience one has the more one learns. I would only agree thre if it is years spent studdying ones breed and lines, not prosucing countless litters. In breeding puppies and providing the required after sales service one cannot be proffessional of one breeds many litters. I certainly find one litter a year more than enough work, as it is in the first year that one has to give most advice and time to the puppies new owners.

Breeding dogs is a hobby for most, or a lifes work, almost a vocation for others! It should be a Craft not a matter of Mass produced commerce. A breed as popular as Golden Retrievers does not need more dabblers as there are plenty of poorly bred ones, and as has been said not enough of those with the betterment of the breed at heart!

If breeding dogs can not be likened to a proffession then how can the breeding of anything else be?

We have people who psecialise in neonatal care of humans, genetic selection and production of food animals etc, etc.

It is because we believe we have a childlike affinity to the dog that we can not accept that people make money out of them.

If we don't want to look at pups because that is too severe lets look at the person down the road running the puppy classes, obedience classes, dog behaviourists etc, etc.

Many are reputable and have large overheads, but what about the behaviourist who comes to your house, spends an hour or so with you and stings you for £40 +++++

People make money from dogs, it's the truth and it is the real world. How those people make money and if they do it with a greater or lesser degree of proffesionalism is what should be called into question.

Ian

Ian, I think that people who know me know that I'm not the least bit arguementative, but I do stand up for fairness of comment.

Personally, I certainly don't believe that numbers of litters produced equates to professionalism. any more than it does to increased experience in a breed, as the puppy farmers of this world would be regarded as the most experienced and professional of all of us (perish the thought).

What does equate to professionalism is the experience gained not only in you own stock, but by discussing the achievements (and failures) of others in the same field, and thence having the courage to channel your breeding plan according to the manner which is best for the breed, not necessarily best for you as an individual, though hopefully both ends are the same.

A lifetimes' experience of producing most carefully selected Litters, maybe one or less a year, and following those pups through to maturity, will count for more than churning out pups like sausages.

I think your analogy of a plumber doing the job every day falls down when you bear this in mind - our 'plumber' spends more time reading and discussing background knowledge than he does actually 'plumbing'. Get my drift?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Mmmmmm!
Champdogs, a website set up for dog breeders. Maybe we should have had to sign a declaration that if we produce more than 1 litter every 2 - 10 years we not be allowed to join.

I never said numbers of litter equates to proffessionalism, what I did say was that the experience gained with every litter is invaluable and can not be replaced no matter how much reading and chatting you do.

I have a bitch here with 14 pups, one of which needed tube feeding and her developing septic mastitis. This has never happened to me before, but what I have learned has been invaluable. I suppose many people on this list has tube fed their pups or maybe i now have some experience that some others have not. Maybe everyone has had to wean a litter of pups at 2 weeks and deal with a bitch that has a 4 inch by inch gaping hole in her side where an infected abscess from her mastitis has burst.

It is no mistake that other dog breedrs and prospective dog breeders ring me for advice and I have friends who have produced more litters over more years than me who I ring for advice.

You are never going to agree with me, but there comes a point where you cease to be a hobby breeder or one of those people that thinks a bitch should just have 1 litter in her life and you become a "proffessional".

By saying proffessional I do not wish to imply that those people have any greater skill or knowledge than the person who just produces one litter, but when breeding, training, working, doing microchipping courses and going to college to obtain qualifications in canine behaviour takes up 100% of your life I no longer this you can be classed as an enthusiastic amateur.

I can't spell it out anymore for you!!! Down with the scum puppy farmers who churn out litter after litter with no thought to genetics, welfare, socialisation and aftercare of their pups.

More power to the people who strive and strive to produce quality dogs that people can love, care and be proud of for the rest of their lives. I class myself as one of these better breeders, I have now reached the threshold of becoming a recognised "proffessional". I m having to subject myself to "proffessional" scrutiny by applying to become a licenced breeder. I have just priced up a new kennel block at £4000 for 4 dogs to live in.

I hope people are getting my drift even if others are not, but for me this is no longer a passtime or hobby, it is my life!

Ian

this is also happening in my area with my breed Staffords, this old friend (yes i do know her very well) bought her stafford bitch second hand at 6 months old she came in to season just after she had her and she has then had a litter very season since (she is now 3) she has had 5 litters the smallest being 5 and the biggest being 7 the bitch does not have papers so she only sells them for £40 each(so she is not maken a lot of money), every litter she has the puppies are looking smaller and just little all over and the bitch is in a mess.
after the first season she said that she would have her done not to spoll her (not that having pups at 8 months will do that) and she has said it after very litter
i think the only thing that would stop her is if she was stuck with her puppies (why do people buy off people like her).
i have phoned the RSPCA but nothing have been done, wot eles can i do? :(

she even had the cheak to ask to buy a bitch pup out of my last litter, well that was the end of the line and i told her to get out of my house and i still think that she does not know why and that was 5 months ago. :D

her last litter of puppies only being 5 weeks old and already away from there mother (that might be a good thing as the mother is now starting to kill them) :( and things are now starting to go wrong with them as 2 are already in the vets, i phoned the RSPCA when she had about 4 weeks left and they have still not been!! :(

Bobby

If so many people try to get hold of bitches and dogs for
breeding to make profit, why not endorse the k.c.registration
certificates, of puppies in the future. By putting a breeding endorsment it will help stop
some of the dogs being bred with. Unless some people get around
this!. If you get someone sensible that is going to wait until the
bitch or dog is old enough to breed, and you think they would be
all right, then you can lift it. It would stop dogs being bred with too
young.
In my breed two to three litters is considered enough. Which I
agree with. Also only breeding to continue a line, or for showing.
I think the public are to blame for a lot of it, as someone contacted
me this week and wanted a pup. They could not understand why
I did not have any pups. They seem to think they are going to
Tesco and can get one just like that!
What do others think?

Hi all,

Sorry if I am going to repeat any of what has already been said(my specs are down stairs and to lazy to get them)! I am sure the KC only allow a bitch to have a litter every year but there is a form to apply for more often i assume if the bitch is exeptional quality. But I feel that many puppies are registered with this rule is being openly flouted, I have strong feelings on the Kc doing more to police this and the fact that many breeds should be hip/elbow scored before breeding and yet they will register puppies from parents that have not had these tests carried out. The bva send all hip/elbow scores to the KC so no excuse in my book.

If you have a breeder in your area that seems to be breeding several litters please do check with local council that they have the right to be breeding and at least it would tip them off, and also it may be worth ring the KC and telling them any info you have and they just might do a check. If you don't want to do it yourself pass the info via my email and i will do it.

"Mandatory Health Checks For Breeding Stock" is now being debated here.