Unfortunatly John you have summed yourself up and several,others.

What utter nonsense that is, serene! :rolleyes:

If you can spend your life working with dogs without laying a finger on them, then all I can say is: Poor dogs, and poor you! The poor things never feel the reassurance of a hand stroking the back of their neck and are deprived of an affectionate stroke or a pat of reward at a job well done. :(

Stick with it John. Some of us live in the real world, where carefree, happy dogs, stay carefree and happy but just a bit more obedient with hands on methods!

Some of us have managed to find a puppy that is not such an emotional or physical wreck that it cant be placed into a sit! Neither is it likely to turn in to a snarling savage beast. ;-)

I truly dispair of these fools Havoc. They know nothing and worst of all they do not even know that they know nothing.

Admin Deleted

Serene, the APDT trainers I've met are more than happy to touch a dog and help it to understand what is required.

Not true John!  Us oldies have seen it all before.  There's nothing new in dog training.  They've just make an "ology" of it now as Maureen Lipman would say!!
Just because they twist your words doesn't negate the fact that you've been successfully training dogs, producing well balanced family pets as well as dogs more successful in the field than others have ever dreamed of!!  AND sorting out problems that ineffective training has produced.
Keep doing what you've always done John, and you'll keep getting what you've always got - happy, well trained obedient dogs, full of personality!
Well bred, well balanced, normal dogs need normal handling.  Neurotic dogs and their owners need different!

Absolutely spot on Val. Couldnt agree more. (even though I'm not such an oldie!)

I just knew this thread was going to 'kick off' at some point. Carrie you've got a lot to answer for! (lol)

To be honest the obedience of the majority of dogs trained by whatever method is little short of pathetic. Some of us have found a way that really works, and I really dont care if anyone uses the same method as me! If asked, I'll give advice or help, but have no illusions that my suggestions will be taken up!

John,

May I borrow your words? LOL.

I just got back from a 2 or 3 mile walk through the pine forests along side the big lake by my house. All four dogs had the whole woods and beach to themselves....not a soul around. They charged all over the place, but when they got too far for my liking, I YELLED, (it's a windy day out) "hey! Let's go!" And they came rip roaring back like maniacs, tongues hanging out, tails full throttle. Oh gee wiz. I yelled. How cruel I am.

My 9 month, 80LB, 28 inch Doberman pup has known sit since he was 9 or 10 weeks old. He's very good on his obedience, but not perfect like Sally's dogs. I asked him to sit. He was staring off into space like he sometimes does, puppy that he is. I put my hand on his back and calmly ran it back toward his rear, with no more physical or attitudinal pressure than I use to pat him to remind him to sit. He said to me, "OH, yeah....you did just tell me to sit didn't you. Ok, no problem." And then he sat. I know, I shouldn't have touched him. I probably caused serious injury to his tiny, weak, frail back and all that punishment was soooo harsh.

They're all now taking naps on my livingroom couches with pillows under their heads. That is cruel too. They should have one of those Temperpedic mattresses made with the material originally designed by Nassau.

Yeah John.... I see your point...all this purposeful misunderstanding. I can't compete with all this testosterone and estrogen. I'm out of estrogen and I haven't had any chocolate today.

Carrie

Carrie I didn't say my dogs were perfect but they are clicker trained so do not need hands on to place them.  I wish I'd stayed out of this but those who think that I do not touch or stroke my dogs couldn't be more wrong.  I touch them all the time. I have just moved a sleeping dog over a bit to type this. I will hold a dog and sponge it down if it has rolled in something smelly and no it wouldn't stand there voluntarily so there you go now you can mock me over that.

John

Don't let them get to you, you know my feelings on your methods of training which are very similar to mine.

I have found since the advent of all the kindness trainers on the board, that if any of the other side dare to speak we are shot down in flames which is why I don't bother to post replies anymore on training. Someone else posted about unruly children and I have to say I totally agree with them, we seem to have more hooliganism since DON'T SMACK CHILDREN became the fashion.

Like John I use a firm, hands on method of training,coupled with correction if necessary and reward when appropriate, similar in fact to that which I used with my children ( who have all grown up into well rounded nice honest adults, two of whom are now running their own businesses) and my horses. I certainly have never had any quivering nervous wrecks, and as someone who has now owned both dogs and horses for something like 40 years, I think that says a lot.  All of mine look to me if in any way they are unsure as to what actions to take and respond when I direct them.

So as I began this post John and as you have said to me in the past hang on in there!!!!!

Jayne

Serene you are an idiot you have no respect  for your betters  ive read you posts and to be honest you are rude you do not even know the people you condemn,
I know john and know him to be a 100 % dog lover I think you are out of order

There was a time when posters on this site would be glad of sensible advice now its seems we are all trying for a quick fix.
Im not going to go into whys and wherfores but dont come on here and ask for advice then get insulted when the advice is not  as you would wish there is a lifetimes experience on here its a brilliant site but instead of talking listen ,read digest and be grateful because people charge stupid money for what is free on here take it in and grow up stop being rude and be nice.
and do not think you can insult respected people because we wont let you because they will be around when you have moved on

Good post Lady Dazzle. Go on, chip in on the training questions - lets even the numbers up! ;-)

Shame this thread is ending up in personal abuse, I fear the padlock is looming! Lets try and stick to heated debate & keep the abuse out!

Havoc,

You're absolutely right. Great idea. Thanks for keeping things straight.

Carrie

this thread has ended up in total craziness!!!!  i bet we all love our dogs.  i'd also bet that each one of us has at some time or another had to correct our dogs for doing something dangerous, or ill-mannered.  by correction, i do not mean abuse.  i mean a "no" or holding onto the dog's colar so it couldn't run off.  nobody's dog is a robot, therefore all of our dogs make mistakes, forget that it isn't right to jump on someone with muddy paws, beg for food at the table... etc.....
and no one in their right mind is so patient as to just allow one's dog to take over the household and "make his/her own decisions".
anyhow, these are generalizations that i've made, but i suspect that to some degree, there is truth in them.  there has been a lot of word twisting here as with the "rocking the baby or dog"  (of couse you rock a baby...in a rocking chair..if not, your missing out on one joy of motherhood/fatherhood)..  wordtwisting is a way to start arguements and that isn't what a forum is for.  it is for offereing training advise and ideas. 

Well said Elija. I do sometimes wonder if some of the people who post on here are naturally rude, or have to work at it
I'm 'hands on' with my dogs, but I'm neither cruel nor hard. Some posters need to grow up, and realize that on a clear day.....you can see both sides of an argument, and  allow you to respect others opinions. 

liberty

Bravo Elija! Yes, twisting words, as has blatantly occured here, sure does start arguments. You wrote a very wise post.

Carrie

Absolutely right, elija! Anyone who has ever led their dog by its collar away from somewhere it wanted to go has 'corrected' it! That is what is usually meant by 'correction' - not punishment or abuse, either physical or mental. If people think that's wrong, then heaven help us all!

If anyone is cruel, abusive, unjust to their dogs, they usually won't turn out very well adjusted. What you people call cruel is not. You're in some kind of a cult with major brainwashing going on.

What could be wrong with training methods that produce obedient, schooled dogs who are happy, cheerful, playful, full of personality, have a wonderful place to live and exercise? What is wrong with a life like that?

I've had dogs for 45 years and they've all, without exception been what I describe. They haven't all been as precision trained as John's hunting dogs because that wasn't what I was after. I have had pets who will lie down when asked and stay while guests are at the dinner table and who are otherwise well mannered and obedient for my purposes. They've always been loved and given a lot of attention and companionship, play and a full, interesting life.

Well said Val. I like that oldies thing you said. John, you and I and the rest of the oldies probably have forgotten more about dogs than the newbies/ologies/trendies will ever know.

I'm not knocking positive reinforcement as I said on another thread. I'm all for it. But I'll let my dog know FAIRLY and NOT CRUELY (as it keeps being INFERRED) when it's doing something I don't like. That's just it. You try to explain and they just twist your words and pretend to misunderstand.....like true, raging liberals.

Carrie

Am amazed at how heated this thread has become and wonder if that is because of the emotive language used in the heading.

Surely we all train to the level we require by the method we find best to achieve that level and still fit in with what most would consider a humane way to treat animals. How others deal with dogs and if they like to achieve competition standard that is up to them. Providing no real cruel treatment is taking place, if a person wishes to train in one way and we in another, is not our business nor should it be a matter for personal comment.

Since I have started to use the 'hands off' method, I have been amazed how easy and quick it is, and I can train to the level I require without pushing my dog about, but I have been training dogs since the 50's and have used different methods with equal success, if a little slower, and a lot more effort. Did not consider my self cruel when I was training like that, but would not wish to go back and use some of methods now as I would find them distasteful, but that is the way I feel and I would not suggest the people using them are being cruel, just using what to me seem like unnecessary effort.

"Did not consider my self cruel when I was training like that, but would not wish to go back and use some of methods now as I would find them distasteful, but that is the way I feel and I would not suggest the people using them are being cruel, just inflicting what to me seem like unnecessary force."

I would entirely agree with this statement Jackie! :D

Sorry Tohme, you have pasted my last sentence as I original wrote it but I thought that may be the words 'inflicting & force' were in themselves emotive so edited. :)

Jackie That is exactly what I could of written except mine would have said " training dogs since the 60's" not the 50's ;) I feel quite young now. :D  I too have used force and taught others to do the same but that was a long time ago and like you would never ever go back to it.  I get amazing results using 'Hands off' not only with my own dogs, most of whom were considered to be untrainable by their previous owners when traditional training methods caused them to become aggressive or unmanageable, but also with those that I teach. 

My bench mark, although nowhere near as impressive as tohme's is the rehabilitation of dogs that were considered to be hopeless cases.
Sally

Think you and I graduated from the same school Sally, I used to take in GSD's that were too wild or too distrested to be rehomed and do my best to sort them, sometimes I could :) and sometimes I could not. :(