My mother-in-law has recently had her border collie bitch spayed (3 weeks ago) but since having been done she has gone completely nuts.  She was lovely before she was done, calm, well behaved and a nice dog to let off her chain.  Now we can't let her off when the kids are about as she just barges them.  She is like an untrained puppy.  She is 5 years old.

Anybody got any ideas what to do as my in-laws are getting quite frustrated by her behaviour.

If this behaviour has started suddenly then a medical cause should be suspected.  They should consult their vet in the first instance.

Thanks Sally.  This behaviour only started after she had her stitches out when spayed.

She was lovely before she was done, calm, well behaved and a nice dog to let off her chain.  Now we can't let her off when the kids are about as she just barges them.  She is like an untrained puppy

They keep her chained up ????? Please tell me this is not true as no dog should be kept chained up

If they don't keep her chained up perhaps it's a new lease of life following the spaying or has something else changed

Did it happen straight away after the spaying ? If so it could be a reaction to the operation .

I would suggest seeing the vet too

I read 'chain' as meaning lead but if she is kept chained then I wouldn't be suprised if having the op has maybe given her a new lease of life and now she is being a normal collie. ;)  Was there a medical reason for having the operation?

She is a working sheepdog and has never been indoors.  When my in-laws got her a couple of years ago when my OH collie died she was an outdoor dog, never been indoors.  She has to be chained as every other form of lead broke when she wanted to go for a walk about. 

Moonmaiden, would you rather see her wandering the fields and risk getting shot by another farmer or kept in the confines of the small holding?  When my in-laws are home she is let off the chain for a few hours whilst they sort out the rest of the animals.  As i donot work I also go up there every dinnertime to let her off and have a run around as my in-laws also work fulltime.  That was the main reason for having her spayed.  It would prevent her from having an accidental mating which she has had twice.

Please DO NOT JUDGE till you know the full story

Not every dog on here is a pampered pooch and lives indoors.

When they get back from their hols I might suggest that they take her for a check-up and maybe speak to their vet about her behaviour. 

Thanks for your help anyway

She should not be chained up I think you will find that all the animal welfare organisations frown on such out of date practices

She would be better in a proper kennel & run than on the end of a chain a restriction which affects the dogs character & being left alone on the end of a chaim leaves her open to being abused by people when you or the owners are not there hence the having "accidental"litters

Pampered pooches ????? Excuse me My border collies are not "pampered" they were born outside in secure kennels by responsible shepherds, they are now indoor dogs because i want them to be that way, they can & have worked in all weathers(they are now officially retired as they are 12 & 13 years old)

Just because I have cavaliers as well does not mean my dogs are all"pampered pooches" My two collies are SAR trained & that is something Pampered pooches do not do, in fact all my BC's & GSDs have been trained for searching for people

No wonder she goes"nutty" when released at least in a secure kennel & run she would not be restricted as much.

Also when a friend of mine died his wife rehomed all his dogs that were still working to friends & the older ones went indoors with no problems just because a dog has been outdoors all it's life does not mean it cannot become an indoor dog

So do not think everyone who has show dogs has pampered pooches

Moonmaiden it was not a personal attack on you.

I am not going to go further into this discussion with you and hereby withdraw from the forum.

So one poor BC will live out it's life chained up for most of the time <sigh>

Goodness Naomi, your description of the dog's life is even worse than my imagination! :(
What isthe point of keeping this dog if the owners are out working all day, don't allow her in the house, have allowed her to have two unwanted litters of puppies and "she is let off the chain for a few hours whilst they sort out the rest of the animals".  The poor dog still isn't getting any personal human attention for herself.  I fail to see what pleasure she gives them or what pleasure they give her??

Naomi
I have 2 border collies and if they were chained up all day and then let off they would go mad!! how would you like to be chained up all day with no real movement. I cant see the point of them even keeping this dog, they should give her to a person who wants to put the effort into her.

Jo

I am in no way taking sides or anything, but have a question.

What is so wrong about being chained up? If the dog is on a swivel ground stake and has a 30-35 foot long chain, the dog can go through out the whole yard almost! I understand fences are much better than a chain as the dog can have more freedom, but what is so wrong with chains? Are they a danger to the dog or something or does it only seem to restrict the dog more? I am only asking because I chain my dogs up as we have no fence. My family and I are looking toward a fence now though, but until we get it up, chains are all I have and the dogs are perfectly happy as they have plenty of room. :) Only my thoughts and opinion, of course.

Hi is not such a common practice in the UK sibluver03 most people can fence there gardens or yards and if their dogs are kennelled usually they have a secure run rather than being chained.
Gilian

Well for starters the bitch had two litters after being mated whilst on the chain so was presumably mated whilst chained up on her own in season unsupervised

The dog can be abused whilst chained up & has no way of escaping, she could have been attacked whilst on the chain by another dog(s), is left open to being teased to the point of biting as retaliation as per the pit bull that attacked the little girl

I rescued a GSD that had it's cheese wire choker embedded into it's flesh because it chained up outside the weight of the chain needed to restrain the dog frequently causes similar injuries.

Sorry but we live in the 21st century & chaining up dogs belongs with the victorians in the 19th century

Whose looking after the dog while they are on their hol's.

I now see why chains are looked down upon in the UK. I live in the US and that must be why I was not familiar with the practice being so outdated. I guess around here chaining up a dog is common practice, though I am seeing more and more fences.

But, couldn't the same things happen to a dog who was fenced up? If a dog was to be abused, what would the difference be if she were chained or fenced? With a chain, her freedom is restricted, yes, but isn't it still restricted with fencing? She would only be able to run around the perimeter of her fence while she would only be able to run around the length of her chain if she were chained. Not much difference. Also, with a chain, the dog could end up tripping her abuser by running around him and pulling, causing the chain to tighten and collasp the person. :D

Accidental matings, I completely see your view here. A fence would be 100% better than a chain than in the case of a female in season. I know this from experience. My girl was never mated on accident, but there were times when I wished I had a fence so I could actually let her walk around while watching her instead of walking right beside her at all times to run the male dogs away. A fence could also protect males, too. In case an aggressive dog happened by and tried to attack a dog on a chain, the chained dog could be put in a serious situation. Long live fences in these cases. :)

And a chain that chokes a dog, well, anything could and possibly has happened. I understand your view here when the chain could act as a danger to a dog. But, couldn't a fence be the same? What if the dog decided she wanted to dig near the bottom of the fence and tried to go underneath but couldn't fit? Her collar could get caught on the bottom of the fencing, causing her to choke or sufficate from lack of air and breathing in too much dirt. Hopefully the fence would be buried under the ground deeper, but face the facts, not all are.

I guess we should all realize that everything we do with our dogs is dangerous. Taking them for rides in cars is dangerous, even for us of course! Simply taking our dogs for walks is a danger because the dog could accidentally escape out of our hands and get hurt. Anything can happen.

A chain is probably a lot more dangerous than a fenced in yard. But we need to all accept the fact that a fence isn't the best, either. I now see your point of views and RESPECT them and am in no way challenging you, but I believe that before jumping to conclusions, we should all hear the whole story and understand why a dog may be chained up. We should just all have faith that our dogs will be okay each day, chain or fence.

Sibeluver03, no, a dog is unlikely to be abused by outsiders if fenced rather than chained because it is more difficult for a person to reach a dog through a secure (6') fence than a dog only confined by a chain.

In the UK chains were only tolerable (never acceptable) if they are a 'stopped running chain' - ie where the (short) chain is attached to a raised line which cannot reach either end of its run (so there is no possibility of the chain becoming entangled with anything). Since the 1970s even this method of containment has been frowned upon.

Have any of you heard of Jeff Foxworthy? He's a comedian from the southern U.S. If you have heard of or know what a redneck is, you'd understanad his jokes. He is very funny. He has a bunch of redneck jokes like, "you know you're a redneck if your wallet and your dog are on a chain.

No, seriously...a chained dog has the very real potential in fact to become aggressive (not all do) because it is vulnerable and it knows it. It can go into fight or flight mode and since flight is not an option, what is left is fight.

It is vulnerable to wild animals or other dogs. Even if on a long chain, it's just no way to live, dragging around a chain and being all alone. It can get wrapped around something and hurt it or if the dog is on a raised deck and it gets wrapped around something, it can hang itself. It's just very dangerous. A kennel would be better, but the dog should still not be left in a kennel for hours and hours and have no human interaction other than when it's being USED for working.

That old way of equating a working dog with being an outside dog or they're no good for working is outdated and proven false. I know some Labs who are fantastically trained hunting dogs and they're inside. A Doberman Pinscher is a working dog, but would be ruined if not with his people. Working dog DOES NOT equal a dog that cannot live with and interact with it's people and have a warm place to lie, companionship, stimulation from the goings on inside. A closer bond and a better, loving relationship, in fact makes a dog want to work and please even better. My Doberman would probably not give a hoot about protecting me if I showed him that I wasn't interested in him. What's there to protect? And that's the same with a herding dog, a service dog, a hunting dog.....I believe that those dogs will work better for a master who they have a real close relationship with.

Working dog, herding dog...any domestic dog is a pack animal and not meant to be alone for hours on end. They've become domesticated through our breeding and domesticated to live with and amongst human beings. I'm sorry if my opinion hurts, but it's my opinion.

I hate to see someone mistakenly believe that spaying has turned her this way. That, I'll never believe in a million years. I've had too many dogs and bitches for that. She's probably sick of that kind of confinement. And goes ape sh*# when she gets let off....naturally. It would be the same if a human were tied to a chain. Sure....you can move around a little, but there you are. What do you do with yourself all day? No one to talk to, to listen to, to be with. pretty lonely.

The alternative is that she roams off and gets shot? If she's a trained working dog, then why can't she be trained to stick around?

Again, no offence intended toward you. It's you inlaw's dog right? This is how I feel and I must speak my feelings when it's something that I feel is unjust treatment to a dog as I love dogs sooooooo much. I'm sure your inlaws don't mean harm. And so from their heart, there is no unjust treatment. But if they knew any better and did this, that would be mistreatment in my opinion. Maybe they just need some education in this department and maybe you're just the perfect person to deliver. You do know better I assume, being younger and having access to a lot of dog info. I hope things turn out better with that dog.

Carrie

Carrie

Hi Carrie

Yes, I've heard of Jeff Foxworthy!!  I got a couple of his tapes "Truckstop Commedy' whist in the US.  He's a riot!  The tapes I have are about family inbreeding and 'bathroom' stories and your reference to him has brought a huge grin on my face as I think about his jokes.

I agree with you - it's not so funny thinking of dogs on chains though.  All dogs have a 'critical' distance around them like our 'personal space' and each dog's concept of his critical distance differs according to his sensitivity.  When chained his own 'space' can be invaded and there is nothing he can do about it.  He can bark to alert his pack but get no response, his instincts can cause him to want to flee but he can't run, he can face a thousand violations each day with or without being touched and have to suffer the stress such violations cause him.

It is no way for a dog to live in any 'civilised' country.  At least in an enclosed area he is safe from attack and has a certain amount of freedom to move without the constraint of a chain around his neck. 

We can never know the whole story of why a dog is chained but wherever possible it should be avoided.

"but I believe that before jumping to conclusions, we should all hear the whole story and understand why a dog may be chained up. We should just all have faith that our dogs will be okay each day, chain or fence."

Sorry Sibeluver, I don't see that anyone is jumping to conclusions. Either they don't believe in chaining a dog or they do. The story is: the dog is chained up. The reason why the dog is chained is of no merrit and has no influence on someone who finds chaining a dog unjust or cruel. The conclusion IS is that the dog is being chained up.  Have faith that a chained dog will be ok? Sorry again...not in my book it's not. A fence would be terrific.

Carrie