I'm getting the distinct impression that many people, especially newly schooled ones are equating reasonable corrections and discipline to abuse or harshness. If anyone mentions that they employ a leash pop or a stern, "no," they are made out to be some vicious, violent dog owner or trainer that's out to injure their dog (and a stupid trainer at that.)

There have been plenty of well trained, reliable and HAPPY dogs before the newer used (not new) methods have taken on such popularity. I'm not saying that I disagree with positive reinforcement. On the contrary I'm all for it. In fact, it is proven scientifically to be more effective in the majority of issues. I use a clicker myself. I'm also extremely distressed if I see anyone being terribly unfair or harsh with their animals. However, showing a dog your disapproval and then showing him what you want is part of training, part of a normal relationship and part of life. If anyone says that it doesn't work to insist on or expect certain behavior, I'm sorry, but I disagree.  I've had many dogs and they've been well trained (albeit not robots) and reliable and NOT hurt or broken spirited in the least...on the contrary, they've been silly, playful, happy go lucky, given tons of affection and a great life. They've also been told "No" more than a few times. I'm sure that other ways work well on some dogs and for some people. I use both positive and negative with my dogs.

I am amazed at how many threads I see, not here persay, but other message boards where people are having aggression problems up the ying yang, out of control dogs, just flat out having an awful time. They're afraid to tell their dogs which end is up. It's either they're not being firm enough or they're being inconsistant and sometimes too heavy handed. What's up with that? Why can't they find the medium?

This is not directed at any person or group in particular so don't take it as inflammatory. It's just an observation I've made in recent months over the course of reading a few message boards.

Carrie

I cannot imagine NEVER correcting my dogs! Let's face, even a simple "No" is a correction. The thing I always tell people is that correction should be graduated according to the crime. Also there is no hard and fast rule of what you should do under any particular set of circumstances.

Imagine this as an example. The worst form of correction your dog can envisage is the worst he/she has ever encountered! He can have no comprehension of anything worst, it is completely outside his experience. So, if the worst correction you ever use is "NO" then that would be a hard punishment to that dog. On the other hand, the person regularly using corporal punishment soon has a dog for which this is the norm. In my job in engineering over the years I have often received cuts to the hands. Our threshold for pain rises and we start to take very little notice of a cut. An "Anglo Saxon" comment and we carry on work! And so it is with the dog who regularly receives a clout. He gets desensitised to pain meaning that harder and harder punishment is needed just to have any effect and in the event of a really serious life or death situation arises the owner has nothing else left.

In a case such as mine, the work that my dogs do means that we are a partnership. But it is not an equal partnership. Anna works for me, not me for her.

Best wishes, John

Yes, I agree.  I insist that my dogs do as I tell them.  I do it very gently and I do not hurt them but if I say sit and my dog doesn't sit I will place them in a sit.  I recently tested a Good Citizen Bronze Award group and was amazed that so many of them kept on repeating commands without doing anything to ensure that the dogs did what they were told.  Their dogs now seem to believe that a sit command means nothing until the owner repeats sit about 10 times and then reaches screaming point and yells SIT.
The one notable exception was a trainer from my own club with a very bouncy boxer pup who obeyed almost every command and was gently placed in position on the only command she didn't obey immediately.  She never lost her bounce though and was obviously having a wonderful time.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

In most cases dogs will do as you wish as long as they understand what it is you require of them, heavy-handed treatment should not be needed. Sometimes a dog is punished when it is the fault of the handler who has not bothered to make sure the dog understands. We expect them to understand English and conform to our moral sense, neither of which they understand. So yes, OK, if you are sure your dog have understood and then disobeyed, then correct, if you are not sure, look to your training methods.

Exactly Jackie. I sometimes forget and assume everyone has the same understanding of dogs that I do. I look to that end....knowing what they have learned and understand, have complied with in the past vs. something they could not possibly know.

John, I agree up to a point with your threshold theory. However, a dog who is repeadedly hit or screamed or otherwise abused does not get habituated to that. They become a ruined spirit and very neurotic. But I know what you mean as far as not correcting more strongly than needed. It's the same as a horses bit. When starting a horse, you start with as mild a bit as will work because eventually you'll probably have to move up a notch in effectiveness in the bit because their mouths will become harder. (sorry for the weird analogy) And definitely it's better to correct assuredly than nag and repeat commands and nag some more and get frusterated. It's kinder to the animal in the long run if you administer enough correction without going way beyond what is called for. It's needed then much less frequently, maybe even just once and that is the end of it. But one has to be positive that the dog knows what you mean, otherwise we must not correct, but show them what we mean. It takes lots of patience to train dogs and horses, horses even more I think.

I don't believe in harsh, nasty treatment or hitting or screaming. I'm talking about firm, positive and fair.

So, I see what you guys mean and we're on the same wave length. But do you notice, or is it just me and my imagination.....picking up on this trend that I was talking about....the idea that to insist on compliance from their dog is not the right way?

Carrie

Think you should insist on the level of compliance that you require, that may not be what the next person would want. Also think far to many people expect their dogs to know what they mean and they have made no effort apart from pushing the pups bottom to the floor and repeating the word sit, what does that means to the dog, I would suggest to the dog it means, if when they make the noise sit and I don't put my bottom on the floor they will push on my back and that is uncomfortable. They have not taught the dog the meaning of the word sit, they have taught them only what will happen if they do not touch the bottom to floor. So when they call sit from a distance the dog thinks OK they can't reach so I don't need to bother. Is that lack of compliance or lack of knowledge?

I just use whatever method I think is going to be the most EFFECTIVE with the individual dog. I'm quite prepared to use physical correction, but am not in the business of inflicting pain! I would concede that a check with the lead is probably uncomfortable, but if done correctly from an early age, really shouldnt require very much force. I'll carry on using that method with most dogs, because i would expect to teach most not to pull on the lead in one lesson.

However, if someone thinks that pushing a dog into a sit (if done correctly) is uncomfortable for the dog, then i guess we just have completely different attitudes to our dogs! I'm not fussed, people are best off doing what they are happy with as long as they are content with the results they achieve.

Whilst I would agree that its important for the correction to fit the "crime", i would say that it is more important that it suits the temperament of the dog. I would be much less likely to use physical correction with a very aggressive or very sensitive dog.

Its all just a balancing act, any corrections need to be balanced out with plenty of praise when the dog is doing it right! As long as that balance is right, the dog will be obedient and happy! The art of correction is to match it to the dogs temperament and to get the timing absolutely spot on.

Some people are TOO heavy handed with their dogs, most fail miserably at training.

I agree Havoc with everything you say. For instance, my girl Chihuahua is by her very nature rather submissive. (maybe it's her tiny size) She just came that way. So, I can never say even the word "no" too strongly or she shrinks back and her eyelashes flutter. She takes a very gentle touch. There is no such thing as a leash pop with her. She doesn't even wear a leash very often at all and if she does, it's with a harness. But, I have my ways of getting my ideas across to her. Sit is said in a crisp, stacatto, almost baby talk/playful voice. Plus, she just plain doesn't do anything wrong. She is so willing. She's a princess. LOL.

We just have to match our methods with the dog's sensativity level, personality and their varying ways of learning.

And I see that there's no argument from any of us here....that heavy handedness or cruelty is useful or humane.

Carrie

Hello all,

I think that it's a question of balance. At our club, I quite often see people who move on to the next stage of an exercise before the dog is ready for it.  This is expecially true with Working Trials. For instance, with doing a send-away, a dog will perfectly happily go out and do a shortish send-away a few times and then the owner will think its ok to make the distance twice as long, and use somewhere completely different. When the dog runs out and either stops, or comes back, they tell the dog off without thinking of it from the dogs point of view. How can the dog do it correctly whn they've never been shown the correct way?
For this reason, I've been doing a lot of training with Kester at the training field but not in a class with other dogs.  He is still around them for socialisation and still goes for a short run with some of the other trainers dogs, and joins in with their classes.
My reasoning for this is twofold, How can I expect him to do things correctly if he is so excited about the other dogs that he never 'offers' the right behaviour. When we are training one-to-one, I ask him to sit, he sits, I praise, therefore when I ask him to do it again, he knows the behaviour I want and that he'll get praised for it.........I'm sure you know what I'm saying :).
The other thing is that because of his age (1 year old last Thursday), I want to make sure tha he only mixes freely with dogs that I know I can trust him with, rather than other excitable dogs of his own age.
At the other end of the scale, If I asked Isla to do something and she doesn't do it, she gets a reminder, usually just a stern look, I don't ask her twice, and I certainly don't beg her to do it as I've so often heard :)
As our dogs mature, we move the goalposts, whats expected of our mature dogs is not whats expected of our youngsters, (well, we might expect it but we probably wont get it lol,lol)
I don't think ther is anything wrong with correcting our dogs as long as the corrections fits the crime, so to speak.

Sorry for the long message (again) but when I get started......

Ali :)
     

What exactly is a correction? it keeps poping up here and there but no one ever explains what it is.
I  can't see why giveing a dog a fair chance by repeating commands is wrong, I do admit that I have sometimes got depressed by it but if you persist and are patient things will come.
This is my first dog and it is only kindness and reward which will eventualy get him to things for me, which is what I really want. My trainer is qualified and says most dogs dont recall properly for quite some time, in time everything comes to those who wait.

Why do you push a dog into a sit when they do it naturally, it is only a matter of getting them to understand that is what the word sit means. Can't see the need to push, you are just turning a natural action into a problem.

I have found over the years it is easier to train dogs by using their natural actions let giving the sit command when they are sitiing then as they are beginning to sit & eventually givning the sit command when they are stood or down It's the reward timing that is important whether it is toy or food or just praise.

Incidently I teach walking to heel off lead as well as show heelwork makes the walking to heel on lead so much easier too. The first time my dogs go on lead is usually to training club to sit & watch only. This goes for the adults I have acquired over the years including my last one who was around 7 to 9 years old (not a BC but a mongrel)when I rescued her & she did lovely heelwork

Dogs know how to sit etc it getting them to do it when you want them to that can prove difficult if the gorund work has been done by compulsion

I'm one of the few people who can show their breed dogs off lead in the ring(not that's allowed in the UK of course)

<<I'm one of the few people who can show their breed dogs off lead in the ring(not that's allowed in the UK of course) >>

I've done this - have never been quite sure what happened but I ended up on the floor with the lead in my hand and my bitch continued the triangle without me, did a circuit, came back to me and we carried on :D

LOL

I was once showing my GSD under Alfred Hahn & we had already won 2 classes & being in the ring for what seemed forever, in the 3rd class I was taken ill whilst leading the gaiting & dropped the lead & another handler ran into the ring to take over but couldn't catch up to my dog who went on gaiting just in front of the 2nd dog :D the other handler waited until my dog came around again & then ran along side of him until the class stopped & he could retrieve the lead

When they came to the final assessment my boy simply walked into the stance without being handled

When the class was over Alfred commended the other handler on having a very well trained unflappable dog LOLOLOLOL

Shoey,

A correction is just what the word means. When the dog doesn't do something you ask, but you're positive it knows how to do that thing, you do something that will turn that around....that will have the dog produce the task you've asked for. It might mean physically showing him what you mean, or moving the dog into that position. It might mean a little yank on the collar to get it's attention if the dog is starting off into space when you've given a command. A correction does not mean a punishment persay. It's just something to either get the dog's attention and turn something around from not happening into happening. It could be manipulating with a toy or treat. It could be a reminder, "Hey!"

What's wrong with repeating a command? What's wrong is that the dog heard me the first time. If he doesn't comply, I do something to induce the thing I asked for. Lyric knows sit. I say, "sit." He decides he doesn't feel like it. So, I push his butt down. (NO...I don't use a sledge hammer and I don't break his back with the force of Hercules.) Then it's "good sit." (praise)

If I were to say "sit" again, it would condition him to wait until I said it twice the next time. Then a time or two down the road, he'd wait and see what I'd do if he didn't sit after two times of saying "sit." Pretty soon he'd have me trained to say, "sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit." That would be the command. He would have learned that he doesn't have to sit when he hears the word once, that he can wait for 5 minutes while I say "sit sit sit sit sit sit sit sit...." Or the command for anything would be that word spoken multiple times. That's what happens. I want my dogs to do what I ask the first time. They can hear me. They know what it means. And they will. It takes time, (puppies you know) but they all do. And when they do, they get lavish praise. That's very important to never forget to praise. Lyric knows to sit/wait while I put his food dish down and he's very cute and pert about it. He'll back across the kitchen and plop his rear down and sit there and wait every time....very good boy. I don't even have to say "sit and wait" anymore. He just does it. But once in a great while, he'll test me out. "hmmmm, maybe I'll just stand here this time and see what happens." I've said "sit" and he's just standing there. I'm holding the food dish. I don't set it on the counter and go force him to sit. NOOOOOOo. I just stand there too. All is silent. I outstand him. LOL and he then decides he better sit or the food bowl stays out of his reach. So, 99% of the time, he does his little trick right. LOL. He's so cute. When he's sitting and waiting, he can't bear to look at me or the food bowl. He turns his head away while he's waiting. It's as if he knows that if he looks, he might just not be able to contain himself. LOL.

With a young pup, if a command is not solidified it may forget or completely understand what I mean. I don't scold, (I never scold when training. There's too much chance that I could be wrong and it doesn't understand something) but I'll show it what I mean right away by gently pushing down it's bottom. In fact, there's very little pushing. When the dog feels my hand back there and slight pressure, it already gets the idea that I want him to sit. But what really worked best for me is holding a treat above it's head and back and letting the dog figure it out. (It doesn't produce the prettiest, tucked up sit, but that can be fixed up later) And it's very good to take advantage of the times when the dog is doing something already, by itself, such as lying down. You can, as it starts to go down, say, "down. good down."  Or the same with anything, sit, come....

I don't see things the same way as everyone here. I don't see that showing a dog what you mean equals compulsion. I'm not being nasty or mean or unduly forceful. I'm simply talking about showing or at times physically helping the dog to do something....to show what I mean if he just can't figure it out for himself within a reasonable amount of time.

There are many training methods and not everyone does things the same. I do what works for me and what doesn't work, I ask for advice or read more. The things I mentioned have worked for me to produce dogs that were pretty darn nice to live with.

The important thing is that we love our dogs and don't do anything to break their spirits or hurt their little hearts. But discipline and insistance on following learned rules is needed and as in children, makes for happier, more ordered, little souls. They learn by doing to be self disciplined and develop a confidence about them. But those behavioral  habits need to be started early.

Carrie

Hi shoey,  Jean Donaldsons book The Culture Clash explains this much better than I can, so get it, its also a very entertaining read. :) Correction is something the dog dislikes happening as a consequence of behaviour the handler dosent like.

Dogs dont do verbal that well, so if you need to repeat an instruction the chances are the dog hasnt yet learned the cue for a response so repeating it louder and louder is futile and confusing, or if he does know it repeating the instruction teaches him to disobey or offer a slow response. To see if your dog "knows" a command stand with your back to him, give the command and see if he does it. :D

hi,
a person has got to correct their dog sometimes, in some way, or they'll end up with a beast that runs the household.  you don't have to be cruel or abusive, but it is like with your children, i hope sometimes you scold them so they know the right way to act.  
anyhow, the problem with repeating commands is that the dog learns that they don't need to come or sit or whatever right away.  the dog learns that you will keep repeating the command three times, for example, before they need to obey.   once the dog knows the command, you should say it once and the dog should comply.
i am not a master or an owner of my dog, i am a gaurdian.  i do not run my household like a military captian.  my dog does not always do the right thing and i am not beating him......but he knows that i am the boss.  a little correction is okay in my book.   most of the things i teach my dog, or try to, are for HIS own good in the long run.   like come or sit or stay,  these commands will keep him safe.  it is my job as a gaudian to keep him safe and so therefore teach him these types of commands.  sometimes i've even yelled at my dog and he is okay, i don't think he has any deep-seeded damage from that experience. 
oh, by the way, the pushing down on the dog's bottom to show them "sit"  is not with force or harshness.  it is just a little pressure on them.  it doesn't teach them that sit means pressure on the bottom or that they only need to sit when  you are pushing.  this is the way i taught my dog because i didn't know there was anyother way and he sits just fine.  he sits when i tell him to whether we are close together or he is far away.  obviously this works, it may not be the optimum method, but it does work.

"I  can't see why giveing a dog a fair chance by repeating commands is wrong, I do admit that I have sometimes got depressed by it but if you persist and are patient things will come"

Because if one of my dogs broke its lead or something like that and was approaching a road or similar danger I would like it to obey a command to sit or down instantly, rather than give it repeated commands whilst it runs under a car!  That doesn't seem to me to be giving a dog a fair chance.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Fleetgold,

Exactly! Excellent post! You hit the nail on the head!

I wish I could say things without writing a cotton pickin book every time.

Carrie

The secret of training any action is to not allow it to be ignored. If you do then all you are doing is teaching your dog that you can make a noise.

Incidentally, I always tell people with young puppies NEVER to push a puppy into the sit. It is so easy to damage the hips whilst the bones are still soft. The correct approach is to rock the puppy backwards into the sit. This is compulsion but is usually not necessary in initial training, a titbit moved over and backward over the puppies head will usually position the dog for you. In fact I'll go so far as to say that with a little but of care most puppies should learn to sit on command within the first few days of arriving at your home. Obviously the sit is not going to be reliable at this age so this is where it is so important to not allow the command to be ignored. You have trained the sit in a couple of days, now the job is to ensure the puppy realises that it HAS NO CHOICE if you are ever to have this or any other command 100% certain. At some time in the future it could be a life saver.

Best wishes, John

"My trainer is qualified and says most dogs dont recall properly for quite some time, in time everything comes to those who wait."

I'm NOT qualified, but I can get plenty of dogs to recall properly fairly quickly! (Cant be any good at training though - no qualifications! ;-) )

Some of us wait, some of us go out and make it happen! ;-)

OK Havoc, gimme an idea on how to recall Manic Morse from cat chasing please without me roaring impotently across the park. Having felt it was all sorted Ive had a blip last night when he was playing with his pal then the poor cat charged into its cat flap in front of him and it was hell on wheels - pal taken home, Morse going up to cat flap etc. Having got thoroughy high and frustrated with the cat, we then had a GSD issue- Morse lies down saying Play with Me, the GSD owner automatically puts his on lead and seeing this Morse ignores me calling happily, waving the toy we were playing with, a very forceful vocal instruction, and its hell on wheels again.

Come to think of it all walk every dog we met got taken away - owners in a hurry, puppy owner practicing recall from distractions etc ( and not getting it)

So corrections means punishments, my trainer never uses punishments not only that she says punishments are totaly unnecesary and cruel.
I cannot imagine anything as awfull as just starting to rock a puppy to force him to sit, if anyone started trying that in our class they would soon be told off or not allowed anymore, patience teaches a dog not forced rocking, human babies can get brain damage by being handled that way, surely a tiny puppy must have the same problem.
I dont want to sound disrespectfull but have any those useing punishments ever been to a modern class ?? I think sometimes people start useing one training method and don't look at newer kinder ways, punishments are not the answere and rocking a puppy to force it to sit has quite frankly left me aghast..

Unfortunately "reasonable" "fair" etc are all subjective, one person's fair may be another's unacceptable!  The very fact that people are debating different ways of training is very healthy, as it shows that we have progressed from the Neanderthal view of "me boss you dog, you do as I say" which used to be the blanket approach to ALL dog training at whatever level.

There are dogs that have done very well on this method, however there are many, many more who have not and have reacted in a number of different ways.

I prefer to remove possible conflict and confrontation from any dog training scenario and concentrate on building a relationship first, without which all training is merely cosmetic!

Modelling, where people "push" or "pull" dogs into the position of choice unfortunately creates resistance in a dog, try it yourself, push someone, the first thing they do if they do not move is push back! 

I have found that it is possible, even quicker, easier and a lot more enjoyable to train the most difficult dogs by using kind, effective techniques that maximise success, minimise confusion and create a dog that is a joy to own and a pleasure to live with.
Without the need for prongs/pinch/choke chains/collars, leash pops, collar yanks etc etc.

The most important factor in dog training is the relationship between the dog and handler and the interraction and the constant engagement made possible and indeed probable out of mutual respect.  I do not have a robot on the end of my lead, nor would I want one and my current one seems to be doing pretty ok in the competitive world at the moment :D

Perhaps we should think less about "correcting" our dogs and more about putting our dogs in a position using the correct motivation to learn and correct themselves?

Just a thought :)

You can't brain-damage a baby by rocking it! You can by shaking it (though that is being questioned). If that were so, then everyone who has ever sat on a swing is it risk of brain damage!

No Shoey, corrections are NOT punishment. It sounds like you're being brainwashed by extremists. Helping a dog by physically moving it or re-positioning it is not punishment if there's no anger, roughness or harsh words... and does not injure the dog. That's ridiculous!!!!!! Of course it's better to try to get the dog to do things on it's own, but if they need some help, that's not punishment. How absurd.

Carrie

I really do not want to get into these kinds of posts but rocking and shaking are more different by name than deed, there is no way I would force a human baby by rocking it to do something, in fact I think its barbaric, but any>>>ANY<<<< knind or rocking must jar the brain.
I have just gotten over one near disator with my dog and would not take any more chances and rocking a puppy untill its forced to sit is taking seriously careless chances, how does it know its being punished for not sitting???????.

Sorry just being a bit thick but how would you "rock" a puppy to make it sit ?

I'm probably being dense, but how on earth can rocking be dangerous? I imagine every single one of us was rocked to sleep as a baby! Rocking is a slow, gentle, soothing action which lulls.

While we're on the subject of babies, did you ever put a baby in a high chair for meal time or put them in a car seat or change their diapers? You were bending and manipulating body parts were you not to keep the seat belt in the right place? Did you ever help a small child put his feet on the pedals of his tricycle when he was first learning how to ride it? I taught my kids to swim and I'd show them by moving their heads sideways to breathe when doing the crawl stroke. I was taking their head in my hand and turning it to the side, keeping one ear in the water. (I use to be a trained swim coach) So, I was manipulating a body part. Was that punishment to you???????Dogs aren't stupid. They can tell what's punishment and what is not by your mood and your tone of voice. Anger, screaming, yelling, hurting, hitting, kicking, being nasty is punishment.

LOL LOL LOL LOL. See.... how ridiculous this is? LOL LOL

Carrie

Er that is because they cannot physically do something on their own, dogs can do everything on their own, they do not have to climb into highchairs etc etc etc

I have also taught swimming and life saving to both children and adults and never needed to "manipulate body parts" ! Not did I need to put their feet on the pedals they somehow managed to find them all by themselves, as I would expect any 18 month old to.

Unfortunately "punishment" is not restricted to the examples you have provided and can be inflicted without a change of tone or mood.  Your post is a good example of how "subjective" the concept of punishment is. 

You are absolutely correct, punishment is ridiculous.

Er.....corrections do not equal abuse.

Corrections however do equal punishment! 

I had a feeling this thread was going to get a bit 'fraught', and it appears to be in danger of dissolving into complete nonsense! ;-)

IMO It all comes down to 4 factors
1. What you want the dog to be able to do
2. How quickly you want it to happen
3. How much you REALLY want it it to happen
4. How you get it to happen. (your method)

If you are absolutely achieving 1 & 2 then as long as the dog is happy, confident and not an emotional quivering wreck then you've probably got 3 and 4 about right.

If you are not achieving 1 and 2 then its time to revisit your methods.

I'm not going to tell anyone that is achieving 1 and 2 that they are wrong, even if they are doing it differently to me. I'm always interested to here the views of such people, (I might learn something, they might learn something or we may just agree to disagree!)
I'm not going to change my methods based on someone who hasn't yet achieved 1 and 2 with any dog telling me i'm wrong (even if their instructor or their book says so!)

If you dont like my dog training methods Shoey then you would definatly not like my ideas on human training! Looking in the paper today about the hooliganisum of two 11 year old boys I think the goody goody approach is well and truly debunked! I have never known the kind of lawless state that we find ourselves in today. It's about time all the overpaid the psycologists were out of work and common sence ruled again. I'll let you play around, I'll do the job. I said to someone this morning, "What is the difference between a behaviourist and a trainer?" "A Behaviourist has read about it and a trainer has done it."

John

:D

Whilst indeed there are a number of "behaviourists" who are nothing of the sort (just as there a number of "trainers" who are equally handicapped by their inexperience/ineffectiveness/incompetence etc) it would be unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

John Rogerson is an extremely admired and capable exponent of both (as are many others I know) and was one of the first to demand that accredited behaviourists have hands on experience of training dogs and to have achieved a level of competence with their own dogs preferably in a field of competition.

Sadly some "behaviourists" and "trainers" have brought the title of both into disrepute and dismissal.  So the definiton you quote may or may not fit as the occasion demands!

Exactly true John. What's wrong with punishment? If they had some, maybe there wouldn't be so many unruly, out of control people. And I never heard of so many out of control, aggressive, hooligan dogs or people with so many problems until I started looking at message boards. Too many people are afraid to tell their dogs anything and think ignoring undesireable behavior will just make it go away. Then they come here and hear people tell them to not say "boo" to their dogs or move or touch a body part. Ha. Then these unknowing people end up with dogs that are walking all over them and getting aggressive.

I brush my dogs' teeth, dremel their nails and clean their ears and brush them, bathe them occasionally. I have to hold onto them or lift their lips and make them hold still. They don't love it, but they hold still, then they get a treat (except for right after the teeth brushing). According to what is thought here to be punishment....as far as touching or making a dog do something it doesn't love to do, that's punishment too I guess. Nonsense.

Carrie

I am afraid we see that punishment does NOT work with people or dogs!  If it did why are there so many people in gaol.

I have not found it necessary to use punishment as a method of behaviour management for either my children (or anyone elses in my care) or my dogs (and any others in my training) or my horses (or any others that I have been responsible for) and none have walked all over me nor have they been aggressive or hooligans.  I don't see that one is the inevitable result of another?

But then perhaps I have just been lucky :D

I can't see any post other than your own Carrie that has suggested that holding a dog's paw for nail cutting etc equates with punishment?  Neither have I seen anyone suggest that you should not move or touch a body part! Or have I missed something? 

<<I have also taught swimming and life saving to both children and adults and never needed to "manipulate body parts" !>>

I probably misread your intention, but Tohme, I'm afraid your own post suggested that moving another individual's body is undesireable, implying that it amounted to punishment.

It wasn't implied but perhaps you could infer this from it :)

"I am afraid we see that punishment does NOT work with people or dogs!  If it did why are there so many people in gaol."

Because they don't hang enough of them!

Well said Carrie!

That and the fact that there are too many supporters of criminals and not enough of supporters of victims is leading to lawlessness.

By age 8 years kids are old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.  If they don't, they need to learn - fast.  When older, if they don't want to live by the rules of civilised society then they forfeit their right to live in society.  There ought to be more deterrent to counter crime and prisons ought to be tough - no privileges - they get forfeited too.  Criminals have a choice - if they don't want to serve the time they shouldn't do the crime.  Their victims have no choice - crimes are inflicted on them. 

Lastly, and this is not meant for Carrie - correction is NOT punishment.  If a child learning how to do math gets it wrong and it is not corrected it carries on doing it wrong because it knows no different.  If a dog is learning how to behave and gets it wrong how does it know what's right without correction?  This does not mean harsh treatment, abuse, pain, suffering or denial of basic needs - food, water etc.  Punishment is not correction and vice versa - don't confuse the two.

The only thing I am seeing is a lot of people who use force on their dogs making excuses for useing punishments, especialy rocking a little puppy...how on earth rocking a puppy untill its forced to sit because its frightened not be moveing body parts???, its being punished, it will not sit so John rocks holds it untill it is forced to sit whats that if its not punishment???!!!!
I also saw someone recomend the name John Rogerson, he crops up a lot in some old posts I have been looking through with someone called Banger, from what I read of that dog it was eating the owners breakfast nearly everyday and biting everything in sight so how can people recomend the owners trainer when those are the results??

I'm very curious, boxi, as to what exactly you think is meant by rocking?

John Rogerson is a highly respected behaviourist, trainer, competitor and judge with international reknown.  I hold him in the highest esteem because of his abilities and integrity.

Do not judge one person's competence on the say so of another whose experiences we cannot validate or verify!

Sometimes it is easier to blame someone else for one's own failings in not following the advice and so I would be very careful before predicating an opinion based on hearsay!

I also use a foot on the neck to enforce the down Boxi!

OK, Lets be sensible for a moment. For all you who feel you can train a dog without touching it. How do you do it? How good are your dogs? How do you evaluate your your training, by what benchmark?

Regards, John

Well I was going to stay out of this but hand on heart every single one of my twelve dogs has been trained with hands off methods.  They all sit, down, back up or stand, stay, retrieve, recall and heel.  All taught off lead.  Apart from Hovis they can all do all of the agility equipment.  My Afghan and three of the collies do targets, go to and go with.  Most of them have additional commands such as spin, rollover, stand up, bow, hide your eyes etc etc.  One collie appeared on the Graham Norton Show using the telephone which I taught him in 2 days.  Pick up reciever, dial the number and speak into the phone on one command.  All clicker trained, no hands on and no punishment or corrections.  :)

Unfortunatly there are those who prefer to live in the dark ages of
force causing adult and puppy alike to suffer brute force. They call it
training but they know the dogs only do things from the fear they suffer at their hands.
Studies show that aggression used on dogs to force them to become slaves
as some above advocate causes serious canine aggression problems which people such
as myself have to teat with kindness to overcome the consequences.
I have trained hundreds of dogs and not one has ever had so much as one finger placed on it.
If people want a qualified, responsible trainer/behaviourist who understands dogs and knows kind methods please get a qualified trainer/behaviourist.

I'm fast arriving at the conclusion that I have nothing left to give this board. My methods are cruel to my dogs. My attitude is cruel to fellow posters and I know nothing about dog ailments. I figure that as you all know everything and all your dogs are perfect that I am just wasting my time.

As someone just said:-

<<Unfortunatly there are those who prefer to live in the dark ages of
force causing adult and puppy alike to suffer brute force.>>

I guess that sums me up. No wonder my dog hates me.

John