Heard today that dogs have to have permanent ID before being eye tested under KC/BVA scheme. Does anyone know if this is official? Think it's a good idea if so!

I did not know they had to have permanent ID but there has been the facility to include Tattoo/Microchip details on the forms for a while now I think.  Excellent idea though

I had my litter eye tested on Friday and although I microchipped them before-hand and put this on the forms they went by the collar colours which I also included - all tested Clear much to my delight - and relief as I kept waking up with nightmares the night before that the examiner would find they were all blind or damaged - why do we put ourselves though this?  :) :) :) :) :)

For the good of our breed Christine, as we tell others!!! :-) ;-)

The answer to your question is no. Dogs do not need a permanent ID at this time. I know the KC have toyed with idea over the years but there is no compulsion to chip or tattoo so it is not possible for it to be insisted on. When you take your dog you need to take your KC registration slip with you but that's all.

Best wishes, John

Just wondered because a friend had 2 tested yesterday & was told they needed microchipping before testing. She had them microchipped 2 days before & when she took them for testing, they couldn't find the chips  :o . But they tested them anyway & they were clear :D . Maybe she just misunderstood, but it's lucky I checked up here as I'm breed health coordinator & didn't want to start giving people the wrong info! (I take enough stick when I'm right )
Thanks for that - but I still think they should have permanent ID - hope it happens soon.

John is right there is no permanenet identification requirement. I would not support any such move unless the owner was given the choice either. I don't like microchips, I am not convinced they are good enough to go into my dogs. When running a session John and I spent ages trying to find chips which would not read on the scanner so the dogs had to go through anyway with only the owners "say so" as to what the chip number was on the form. In other words it could have been any dog going through the same as it is now.

Both Polly and I have run into cases of chips migrating, and migrating a long way at that! I'm sadly afraid that we have been badly let down by chip manufacturers. There are several around and we have found that not all readers read all chips. A dog is chipped and the chip is verified but if the dog gets lost then it is hit or miss whether the chip will actually get checked for by the person finding the dog and worst still, even if checked for, whether it will be compatable with the reader being used.

Best wishes, John

<John is right there is no permanenet identification requirement>

It is correct that there is no requirement for permanent identification for the KC/BVA scheme, but if the dog is tested under the European eye scheme (as tested at the AHT at Newmarket), they MUST be permanently identified by either a microchip or tattoo.

I think that this should be compulsory for any KC health scheme, without permanent identification there is only the owners word that the dog that is presented is the dog on the registration certificate. It is so easy to present a dog with known clear eyes or low hips as a ringer for the accompanying paperwork of another dog.
Permanent identification is not a guarantee against fraud but reduces the probability that anyone will try.

All our dogs are either microchipped or tattooed and all the dogs that we have owned & bred since 1999 have both microchip and tattooes. It is very difficult to alter a tattoo and would be very obvious.

We have just imported a dog from Finland and had concerns that the chip could be a problem when read by the scanner, but in the event everything was okay and there were no problems.

snomaes

I am tempted to make a comment about the European eye scheme but I dont think I'll bother

So glad you`ll not bother J.  ;) :D

As you know we all have to manage with the best we`ve got & that`s the best that we`ve got over here....
and you also know how hard I`ve worked to get it here :D

Christine, Spain.

;)

The European Eye Scheme is correctly run in Spain, and other European countries, however in the UK there are some people using a type of certificate they call the European Certificate but it is no more than a poor copy. The European Veterinary Association is not happy that there is copy being used and is being claimed to be the European Certificate. Having said that the official European Certificate is availabe over here but has the same rules as the BVA/KC/ISDS scheme. Professor Peter is is one of four BVA pannellists approved by the European Veterinary Association to issue the official European Certificates in the UK. He has these certificates at every testing session so if a breeder or owner want their dog tested under the European scheme it is not a problem, but all listed conditions are tested for.

<Having said that the official European Certificate is availabe over here but has the same rules as the BVA/KC/ISDS scheme. Professor Peter is is one of four BVA pannellists approved by the European Veterinary Association to issue the official European Certificates in the UK. He has these certificates at every testing session so if a breeder or owner want their dog tested under the European scheme it is not a problem, but all listed conditions are tested for.>

The eye testing sessions run at the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket are staffed by either Dr. K.C. Barnett or Miss  J. Sansom, both acknowledged experts in their field and are also approved to issue European certificates.
All the listed conditions are tested for and a certificate issued in the same manner as the BVA/KC/ISDS scheme, with the added safeguard that permanent identification is required.

These are the same people who were testing to the KC/BVA/ISDS scheme until a few years ago and the testing procedure is exactly the same for the European scheme. The only disadvantage at the current time is that the results are not published in the BRS, but in the case of Golden Retrievers the results (pass and fail) are published on the Golden Retriever Breed Council web site.

The important point is that the dog's eyes are tested and a certificate issued to indicate the eye status of the dog that is checked. Considered breeding decisions can then be made on the results obtained.

I have nothing but praise for Miss Sansom because she detected an eye abnomality in our champion male during an annual testing session (which he passed), which if had remained undetected would have resulted in the eventual loss of an eye. After a long course of treatment his eye is now fully recovered.

snomaes

I was going to hold my council on this but as it has reared it's head I will post this.

It tests for HC, PRA and MRD, but the results at present are not published or collated. The KC do not recognise this scheme and so the results do not appear on the puppies registrations.

This is as stated on the Golden Retriever website and I would ask:- What use is a scheme which is undocumented? It is hardly going to be of long term help to breeders. This is not a slur on the people examining the dogs, rather on the scheme itself.

John

<What use is a scheme which is undocumented?>

It is documented to the extent that a certificate is issued for the dog, pass or fail.
It is then the responsibility of the bitch and stud dog owners to inspect the original certificates to ensure that the dogs have been tested prior to mating and that they are clear of defects.
We always do this whether the dog has been through the BVA/KC/ISDS or European scheme.

We use both the schemes depending on whether there is an eye testing session being held locally when we need to update the certificates or whether we have to book a private session at the AHT. The end result is the same, either the dog passes or fails and a certificate is issued documenting the results.

We always issue our puppy purchasers copies of all the sire and dams health certificates, so it makes no difference whether the details appear on the registration papers or not.

snomaes

A certificate is easy to forge. I prefer something I can read in an independant publication such as the BRS. Also there is no way of knowing if a dog has been tested or not without contacting the owner which makes it so much harder finding a stud dog.

I'll stick with the official scheme.

<A certificate is easy to forge.>

.......especially without permanent identification?

I saw a forged certificate used by a puppy farmer, and it was almost impossible to detect from the real thing. So how did I know it was forged? I knew because the dog named on the certificate was bred by and owned by a friend of mine and it never was owned by the puppy farmer. The puppy owners were all given a copy of the certificate as well! This dog had permanent identification, so did the puppy farmer scan the stud dog and dam of the puppies in front of every puppy owner? I think not. Somehow the puppy farmer had got hold of a copy of an eye test certificate from somewhere, and duplicated everything right down to the stud book number and ID.

If a person wants to get around a scheme there will always be ways.

Like John I like to check the BRS records for the results of dogs tested whether under the BVA or the European scheme.

Looking at the last issue of the BRS the results for the official European eye test certificate are listed and they have been for a while now. In the working group nine dogs listed in total taking part.

Thanks Polly, I didn`t know the ECVO scheme was being abused in the UK.

Let`s face it, most things are open to abuse nowadys & if people are intent on using schemes for their own benefit they`ll find a way to do it, but for the majority of people tho the welfare of the breed & their dogs are the most important thing. I have to say Keith was the only one willing to come over here to examine the dogs at a cost affordable us who wanted our dogs done over here, he keeps expenses to a minimum & I hold him in great regard, as do a lot of other people in UK & else where. I had asked others from the BVA but the cost was just way too much!
I think either scheme are as good as each other & I don`t mind what certificate I receive just so long as the examination the dogs get is done by an an examiner who knows their stuff ;) :D

Christine, Spain.

I thought that the ECVO certificates were published in the KC breed supplement, does anyone know?

Christine, Spain.

Certainly they never used to be documented anywhere C as a read of the info on the Golden Retriever site clearly shows but I'm think it does now that they have been forced to come into line and check for MRD.

Best wishes, John

Hi J, not sure but thought I heard it was going to about 2yrs ago?
I know Keith has all the results documented & said they`re available to anyone who`s interested.

Christine, Spain.

Yes the real EVCO results are published in the KC Gazette and have been for a while. Having said that, the results printed are only those for dogs residing in the UK, and examined by a BVA panellist.

It`s all good & well using micro chipping as means of identifying dogs but do the examiners use a chip reader to make sure the dog correspondes to it`s chip number??

Christine, Spain.

I recently had both my cocker spaniels eye checked, I asked what paperwork to take, they said kc documents only, so when I got there and they asked for their microchip numbers they had to scan them and yes, they did check to make sure the number corresponded with the dog!

If the dog has been chipped and if we have a reader available we check but there is no rule with the KC/BVA/ISDS scheme

Best wishes, John

both my dogs are chipped and both are eye tested but when i had them chipped i only gave there Pet name's and not KC name's so how would this help to prove who the dog is???

We often check pet dogs which are not registered, whether because they are crossbreeds or because their breeder did not register them. The test is for the benefit of the owner only and results are not, and cannot be submitted to the KC for recording. For a result to be recorded we need to the KC registration certificate. Occasionally we have someone who has forgotten to bring their KC documentation. With these we would still test but we would not complete the paperwork until after the person has sent the documents to the Ophthalmologist in order for him to complete the dogs details.

Obviously, on all official documents you should always use the dog's full registered name and never the pet name.

Regards John

Had a busy weekend with 3 working tests, so only just caught up on this, which I need advice on urgently, I think.

I couldn't go to Kerioak's eye testing unfortunately - things went pear-shaped with my Mum, but need to get Noof eye-tested before sending semen to Finland, and the Finnish KC need identification on the eye certificate.

Does this mean I've got to go to Cambridge, as time is of the essence, as they say, and I've got a working test to organise here for next weekend, and could really do without the trip.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I had Buffy tested, as i am going to be mating her, she passed but all the id that was needed was her kc papers which they stamp, i took her to a vets in romford essex.

What about J Yellowley?

Rosemont Veterinary Hospital
24 Old Woking Road
West Byfleet
Surrey
KT14 6HP

Phone 01932 341058

or I Mason

Seadown Veterinary Hospital
Frost Lane
Hyth
Hants
SO45 3NG

Phone 02380 842237

Best wishes, John

John
Think the new form is OK for me now, as it has space for ID on it.   Couldn't get an appointment with Jeff soon enough, so going to one of Sally Turner's clinics in Middlesex somewhere tomorrow.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

She gets around - Sally was the examiner who did my pups last week :)

Christine