my male dobermann hasmated for the first time and i was given a fee of only £55 as he is not a proven stud,is this the normal fee if this is the first time he mates.

Why would you breed your dog if he's not a proven stud? And why would the bitches owner breed her animal to yours? Is her's proven? Have genetic health tests been done on both? Von Willebrands, thyroid, liver function, hips, elbows, eyes,  How about their ancestors? Cancer, cardio, CVI history, longevity, temperament testing. Is this just another case of indiscriminate breeding? How old are both dogs?

This is exactly why I am all for neutering and spaying all but the very best, proven, health tested animals.

The stud fee question wouldn't even be asked if you were an experienced breeder who knew what they were doing.

I'm sorry to be so blunt. I'm very passionate about this sort of thing and think breeding should be done exclusively to improve the breed, not just to breed any dogs, just because they're registered. There are scientifics to it and extensive study should go into it before anyone decides to breed.

Carrie

Your dogs services are not worth anything, the money you have is to help cover your expenses. Hope you have taken the trouble to have your dogs health status checked out, and also made sure the bitch has because in law you are as responsible for what your dog produces, as is the bitch owner. Any health or temperament problems and you could be sued, you are also responsible for any pups returned that the bitch owner can't cope with.

Hi Guest

Sometimes an unproven dog does not get anything the first time - generally because he is part of a breeding programme and mated to one of his owners bitches but even with outside service they are often foc.

If you [email kerioakk-champdogs@yahoo.co.uk] email [/email] me with the dog and bitch's pedigree names I can give you a more informed opinion

Hi Carrie

Catch 22 in your message :D  How do you become a proven stud if you never mate a first bitch ? :D

Germany have the better idea I think with breed wardens - in countries like US and UK and many others it is just too easy to breed dogs.

Hi Kerioak, just being nosy whats a breed warden?

In Germany in order for your pups to be registered (in Dobes anyway) the dogs have to be of a certain standard in confirmation, health and obedience.  I believe I am correct in saying that breedings are approved, pups are visited (twice) by the breed warden and assessed and tattooed before they can be registered.

The same applies to Weimaraners.  Before they can be registered the dogs must prove their potential in a hunting test, pass a conformation exam etc and then they can be registered.  There are also various other tests that may be conducted. If you want to breed the dog warded must see the pedigrees of both the sire and dam and approve before it can go ahead and the litter must be culled to a manageable amount.

This seems too good to be true, suerly there must be drawbacks.does this mean no puppy farms,back street breeders ?  One would assume these pups are going to be well rounded specimes which dont just resemble in looks or charachter the breed they are supposed too .Not sure about the culling side are these approved or unapproved pups?

In Germany most dogs are bred to fulfil a function or take part in a sport so hunting is a big thing in gundogs and working dogs participate in schutzhund/mondioring/ringsport which are very popular sports with clubs in every town virtually.  Showing is minute compared to the UK.

Dogs are culled not necessarily because they are not up to standard but having 12 day may be too much for the bitch; to be honest I am not sure how rigourously this is carried out today as opposed to the past.

In general there is not the mass market in pets that there is unfortunately in the UK and elsewhere.

Not only are not so many dogs bred there are lots of training clubs and not just for basic pet obedience either but ones that try to keep alive the reasons the dogs were bred/designed in the first place

>>Catch 22 in your message   How do you become a proven stud if you never mate a first bitch ? << Exactly Christine :-).  

It is maybe not often but on occasion we do get visitors who have the breed at heart, have done the health tests etc and still are a bit unsure about stud/breeding  terms.

Guest,

I have no experience really of stud work but I do believe once the tests that are required by the breed are done most people use the dog on one of their own first, or go back to the original breeder who may use the dog first for you to get it proven etc.

If you do not want to use the dog on your own bitch because it wouldn't be a suitable mating , some will be happy to use a maiden dog but then pay the approriate fee once the puppies have been born.  All these terms should be agreed ahead of the mating.

Kerioak,

"Hi Carrie

Catch 22 in your message   How do you become a proven stud if you never mate a first bitch ? "

Proven doesn't have anything to do with having mated. It means conformation....champion status, other working titles in the case of a working breed. In addition.....there's pedigree history, health testing, temperament testing. If the dog is superior and the bitch is also superior, then fine....breed. But a breeder ought to know what they're doing ahead of time.....all these questions I see regarding the condition of the bitch at whelping, what is happening with my bitch, is this labor, what is done, how to go about things....these should all be researched and understood fully before someone gets into breeding.

Carrie

Difference in terminology here, Carrie! In the UK a 'proven stud' is one that has sired a litter! It refers to him having proven his fertility! Nothing to do with any other quality.
:)

I see...It could be too, that I have the terminology wrong. But what I meant was, all those things that I mentioned should be first and foremost.

Thanks for the correction.

Carrie

Guest
£55 does seem a bit cheap for an unproven dog.
Many years ago (20 or so).My husband used an unproven dog on one of our Springers,The dog had actually just  won a field trial competition  but had never sired pups.We paid about half the normal stud fee which at the time was around £150 so we paid £75.

What is it they say about the UK and US, something like
"two nations divided by a common language" :D

When I first came across the Dobe Cha-Rish The Sh*g Dancer I must admit to being astounded and very gingerly asked on one of the American lists what it meant - it means something very different over here :)

It doesn't mean anything to me. LOL LOL LOL.

What is it?

Carrie

Erm, how to put it delicately, over here a sh*g is a colloquial term for the act of love :)  Well, maybe not so much an act of love as a quickie :D  Which led to us over here finding the film Sh*g about dancing absolutely hilarious and full of double entendres :D  Well, this is the country that brought the world the Carry On films ;)

Lesley

I gather it's also a name for a hairstyle, and I remember being enormously amused to read that Jennifer Aniston (who had her hair in this style) described as "the best sh*g in America"! Or perhaps it wasn't the hair ... ;) :D

my girl is expecting a litter by a maiden dog (she has had 1 litter already) I didn't pay a fee at the time of mating ... the stud dog owner and myself agreed at the time that if she went into pup and all went well that i would send her half of the normal stud fee

Carrie,

It may just be the written word that sounds so harsh but as I have seen pointed out to you on another thread is that being a champion in the UK is far different to that of a lot of countries. A lot of good, fully tested dogs are used at stud before they become champions as they are sometimes used at a younger age. If they are well bred, show potential with good test results and conformation then because they have not got the CH attached to their name does not write them off for being used at stud.  Compatibility is as equally important which chosen a stud.   Would you recommend someone not use a dog more compatiable to the bitch because he was not a CH and recommend one less compatible because he was.  I would imagine not.

Whilst I agree that new breeders should have done their homework and be prepared , it is not somthing that comes automatic.

I had my first litter early last year after about 2 year of planning, I read all that could be read, ask all that could be asked, was more than prepared but believe me when the first puppy arrived I was scared stiff. I coped and managed but nothing in the world except experience could have made me more prepared. I had a mentor, experienced people at the end of the phone or 5 mins in the car.

All whelps are not by the book.  My bitch was 6 days early with a larger than average litter for her breed. She popped a puppy out with no signs at all. I could not have be prepared for that.  The only thing I did notice that day was the slightest dip in temp so I was watching her like a hawk.  Often people say to forget the temp measuring and watch their behaviour but had I done that I would have missed the only sign there was.

Everything is not cut and dry. 

I do agree 100% about the right dogs being bred from and for the right reasons, making sure you know as much as you possibly can, however experience is not something you get from a text book or others. It is something you have to gain through times.

BFN

It's always worth remembering that a dog can only become a Champion if its owners are interested/wealthy enough in showing/working it to that standard! Its genes are exactly the same whether or not it has a title!
:)

JG,

Totally agree. :-)

My bitch that I have when her dam was mated to the sire he had 2 cc's ( I nearly said only, slap)  My bitch is now 16 months the sire has 10 ccs which is very good in my breed. Even if he had not gotten anymore he was very worthy and compatible as the sire.

Blue,

Agreed. I see your point.

Carrie

In the majority of cases a dog might be a bit old for first time mating by the time he gets his UK title, also there are far fewer title holders, and using titled dogs only would restrict the gene pool enormously.

My breed which has around 150 annual registrations of individual dogs will have around 3 to 6 Champions made up a year of the around 10 to 20% that are shown.

Mine is a numerically small breed and there are 18 shows per year that have the CCs on offer, and of course you have to beat the Champions for the CCs.  At these 18 shiows there will be around 40 to 100 exhibits competing for the two CCs on offer for best dog and Best bitch.