Recommended by my dog trainer, I have started confining my dog during the day.  He used to have free reign of the house.  Now him and his sister (17 month old golden) are confined to the kitchen.  Today I got received the xpen that I got on ebay, and starting tomorrow, they will be confined to the xpen.

It has been 3 days.  My boy pants and shakes when I put him in the kitchen.  I take them out to potty right before I put them in the kitchen, so I know that isn't the reason.  Twice now he has been able to get over or around the baby gate (that will not happen with the xpen, it is more than twice as tall).  He still pants and shakes though when I put him in there.

I know he will get used to being confined (although it's really hard leaving him like that), but I am just wondering, could he make himself sick by panting too hard/fast?  It's a really fast, hard pant that makes him shake. 

I will ask my trainer tonight, but I'm not sure if she will know that ...

Thanks ~

Your male pup is in a panic.

What is an Xpen and how long is he being left in it and are you happy with the advice your trainer is giving you. Also why do you need a trainer anyway. Having 2 pups of the same age is always a problem, 1 pup need full time attention but 2 really require more than one person and time to train and exercise them separately, have you been able to do this since they were 8weeks? Think with the male you need to go back to the beginning and try to re-establish a trust and confidence between you, he is worried, stressed and need reassurance.

EDIT to say: perhaps a check over by your vet would also be a good idea before you start trying to recover his trust.

Well, the trainer is actually a behaviorist, he is going because he growls at kids.  He is 4 1/2, my other one is almost 2.  The 2 year old has always been kenneled because every time I leave her loose, she pees in the house :| ...

Anyway, the trainer suggested that I start 'nothing in life is free except water' - which means my boy has to be retrained by me, and it also means that he can't be loose in the house.  Which is why the xpen ... (xpen, by the way is short for exercise pen, it's a pen that both my dogs can fit in nicely, with crates, toys, etc, it's 16 sq. feet). 

Anyway, I am not 100% convinced about this trainer.  I think it is going to really come down to me watching my dog all the time for body language, etc and me responding to this language.  He is also going to start watching kids and getting praise when they're around.  But, they are never going to come close to him ...

So - another question I have is this.  Last night we went to the trainer and she had him work with 3 kids.  He was so nervous that he tried not even looking toward them.  He had his ears and tail down the whole time and he wouldn't accept treats (no growling though, which the trainer said was good, BUT this isn't normally how he acts).  ANYWAY - the trainer said I should think about putting him on amitriptaline.  Just wondering what the side effects of this would be?  I am really nervous about medicating him like that.

I guess this is really a behavior question though ...

Thanks

I am sorry but from what I can gather from your post no reputable behaviourist would recommend this course of action with a dog that was uncomfortable around children.  Have you checked their credentials?  I cannot see anyone who is a qualified, experienced, accredited behaviourist putting your dog in with three children at this early stage, it is a recipe for disaster..........................  Your dog is being put into  an intolerably stressful situation which can only result in tears; please rethink what you are doing immediately.

I couldn't agree more, tohme. This 'trainer' is stressing the poor dog to near breaking-point, which IMO will only reinforce his fears.

Did not understand your first post thought as you said "he and his sister 17 month old Goldens" or words to that effect that the were both 17 months and from the same litter.

Now would have to agree with Tohme, this dog is suffering, as far as I can see, from being fearful and the last thing anyone would do is what your trainer is doing. If your 17month bitch is not house trained either, something is not right all round.

Did your vet refer you to this trainer because if so I would ask to see someone else, if not I think this is your next course of action.

It is not possible to 'see' over the net what is going on but because you have problems with both dogs I think a trainer/behaviourist should be visiting your home and assessing the situation and IMO the sooner the better.

Hi Jackie, sorry about the confusion.  My other dog isn't really his 'sister,' I just call them sister and brother (silly of me, I know).  ANYWAY, my goldens problem is not a behavior issue.  She has a condition where her bladder leaks.  Mostly it happens when she is sleeping.  She is on pills (ppa), but they don't always work (I'd say they work about 80% of the time).  Anyway, I really have no problems with her except for the bladder thing.

So, you all think I should ditch therapy???  I am not sure which is better for him - avoid kids or conditioning him to them.  Hasn't anyone out there worked with a behaviorist and had success????

Some behaviourists are very good, but some are absolute charlatans. Were you referred by your vet?

Not by my vet ... I only found 2 behaviorists in my area.  I picked her because she has had 20 years experience.  Also, she is calling my vet today and is going to fax him the paperwork we did.  I didn't think about asking him if he knew anything about her because I have only been going to him for a year and he has only seen my boy for routine things.  Maybe I will go by the vets and ask if he has worked with her and what he thinks about putting my dog on drugs.  Although, I am pretty much against the drugs, it's a good excuse to talk to him.

I've been trying to interpret the post. Am I right in thinking that the dogs are left on their own during part or all of the day? Any you in another room or out of the house?

I must agree with the others about your behaviourist. Has she ever been to your house and seen the setup there or do you go to her?

Regards, John

Well, I go to her, she thought it would be best that way because she has kids who help her.  My dogs are left while I am at work for 4 hours in the morning and then again for 4 hours in the afternoon (I come home for an hour at lunch).  There has never been a problem, but the trainer suggested that my boy be confined during the day.  This is supposed to teach him that he doesn't get all priveledges (getting on couch, etc) when I'm not around.  The trainer thinks he is confused with his role because I don't give him commands and generally let him do what he wants (he is very good, except for the growling thing).

Anyway ... she thinks the aggressive behavior is fear aggression.  This week I need to find some areas where he can view kids, but they are behind a fence (on a playground or something).  I am going to see how he does with this.  If he does good and can start to relax, I will continue with the training.  I think that the situation she put him in last night was actually a little too much for him.  But ... I think I can take her advice and maybe help him.

I don't think I will put him on the drugs though.

I'm sorry then but if your dogs are being left for 8 hours a day then again all night whilst you a sleeping I feel that the "leaking" of your older dog is no more than the dog not being fully house trained. The problems with your younger dog would appear to stem from lack of socialising during its most formative weeks.

I know this will not be popular but I'm afraid a dog just cannot be trained by remote control. Sorry to say it but thats my view for what it's worth.

Regards, John

Actually, my younger dog is the one with the bladder problem.  She has had an ultrasound and some of the tubes that connect the bladder to the opening are going in the wrong direction.  I can't afford surgery right now and it isn't a situation that is going to get worse (according to the specialist) so right now we are waiting.  I really didn't want to bring this up since I can do nothing until I have money for surgery.  Thanks for depressing me by making a big deal of an issue that I don't currently need advice on.

I would love to be home with my dogs all day, but unfortunately I have to work.  There are many people here that leave their dogs ALL DAY without going home at all.  My dogs are very happy and well trained and the only problem I really have is with my older dog growling.

By the way, he was very socialized when younger.  For the first year of his life I had a job where I could bring him to work.  Even as a 3 month old puppy, he was wary of most children.  If it's due to lack of socialization, it happened before I got him, when he was 10 weeks old.  I bring this up because I have wondered about this myself - that he has always been nervous around kids.

Anyway, I found a situation to help our problem.  Someone else on another pet board suggested I put his crate in the kitchen.  This is a crate that I have in the house, that he hangs out in sometimes (like a dog house, he can go in and out when he feels like it).  Today I came home from lunch, and he was still in the kitchen (didn't break out of it like usual).  The blankets in his crate were still warm, but he was happily greeting me when I came home. 

So - Thanks to a person who actually had an idea instead of a bunch of people telling me everything that I'm doing wrong, he is much happier.

Thanks (... or, not).

GB

 

He may be much happier in the crate but your main worry was the growling around children; the actual placement of your crate will not address this issue and the majority of us who posted zeroed in on the "biggie"! 

Personally I see no reason why your dog should be crated at all if the only issue he has is with children; this has nothing to do with "dominance" "leader of the pack" or "alpha" issues any more than suggesting your daughter was being a rebellious teenager if she was frightened of spiders; there would be no relevance in either of the two spurious suggestions!  So I fail to see the logic of restricting your dog's movements around the house; this will not address the "problem" of him being uncomfortable with children!

If you believed in your behaviourist and their programme/advice so much I wonder why you feel the need to pose the question to numerous boards?

If you are questioning their ideas (which I believe are extremely questionable) then be prepared for some responses that may make you feel uncomfortable!

If you don't like the answers or opinions you get then perhaps it is better not to ask! 

Most of us reply to posts because we genuinely want to help the poster and/or their dogs!

Alright - The reason she says he needs to be confined is this - She says that dogs need to know their place, that there is one leader and that the other dogs all have 'roles' also.  She says that dogs that are extremely good and were easy to train as puppies, often get the idea that they *might* have a higher role (which is what starts to lead to these type of problems).  She says that because I never give him commands, and I give him a lot of freedom, that this gives him the idea that I might not be so strong a leader that I could protect him from 'danger.'  He sees children, for some reason, as the danger.

So, to become a stronger leader, she wants me to 1. start giving him commands to do regular things, like 'sit' before I put his leash on and 2. start confining him when I leave.

I am questioning all of this because first, I hear of so many styles of training, etc.  Secondly, it just seems a little *too* simple.

I agree about the meds though, she did jump to that pretty quickly.  Also, she seems really really into selling things, which is another reason I am not sure about her.

If you dont like my comments then feel free to ignore them. They are just my views. I realise people have to work, this is the very reason I have not replaced my Lucy who died three years ago. My present position does not make it tenable to bring a puppy into the household at the moment.

John

John, I am not going to ignore you comments, especially when you blame my young girls bladder problem on training.  I have been to several vets about her problem, one a specialist, and according to them it is an internal problem.  But, I can't ignore someone who comes in and says it's due to training, when you never asked me if she is well trained.

I would be willing to discuss the socialization issue with you because this is something I have wondered about.  He was my first dog though, and I think I missed a lot of signs.  I would have socialized him more with kids if I had known these signs.

Looking back, there was only one child he was ok with.  This was my friend's 3 year old daughter (unfortunately, they moved to california when he was very young).  But ... why one child and not others?  He also met 2 of my co-workers children, and was nervous around them.

I am no help in this subject but I know how you feel. I felt the same way when I started this forum. Almost quit, because same people who "helped" you with advice "helped" me to get depressed and discouraged and no real advice from them, only criticism and talking to each saying how bad we were (my dog, my husband and I) like they have nothing else to talk about. Don't worry follow your intuition and do some research, ask your vet and some other pet owners in your area, but chose tips that make you feel more comfortable and find the one that works best. Good luck.

P.S. My dog never liked being locked in the crate when she was a pup, well she still is a pup (almost 6 mos). And I never forced her in there, because when I tried a couple of times, she would cry like crazy or would try to jump on the top of the crate being inside of it (pant), and chew the metal rods etc. Right now she goes in there when she is tired or when I yell at her for doing some mischief. It is like her own property that nobody can get in. Her own hiding place. What I tried doing with her was giving her some raw hides after meals so she would settle down and have some fun time in there. But of course my dog did not have a bladder problem and she is almost house trained, some times accident still happen. But she is good. I would only suggest that you should try your dogs associate the pen with something good. I am not an expert in this area. Sorry and cheer up.

Not a lot of point asking a question if you do not consider the replies. You may get the answer you would like from someone you know or ask face to face because people are programmed to try to please. That is why asking for replies from people who do not know and can't see you is best, they will give you their honest thoughts. Of course, if you don't want honest opinion then don't ask people who don't know you and have no axe to grind.

Most people who join this forum do not ask for anybody's opinion, they do not ask for verbal attacks for not being perfect, or being bragged about how horrible they are to their pets (which is not true, all of us try our best for our pets otherwise we would not be concerned about issues we face and would not seek help either here or anywhere else). Believe me, I dont work, and I did (still do) spend 24/7 with my puppy the first 3 months and still had some problems/issues either with health or behavior. I had books too, lots of them, but some times you just want to hear how others dealt with the same issues and perhaps try them too. Most people who join this forum are crying for help, tips and support, because we love our pets.

P.S. I was even told that my relationship(upbringing) with my dog is going to fail (that I will give the dog away), well, not exactly in these words but you could feel it in the "opinion" people gave NOT even to me but to each other. And my dog grew a beautiful dog, she is smart, trained and is very loving. We have a strong bond and she loves and is extremly gentle with my newborn, even though she is only 5 months old.

<<Most people who join this forum do not ask for anybody's opinion>>

You mean we are wasting our time trying to help alina_d? That is not my experience!

Oh my God, John, you just cannot stop, can you?

What exactly does that mean Alina?

Alina, your point being what?

John explained, very clearly from the details given, how the problem could have arisen. Logically then to 'cure' the problem you correct what was done wrong in the first place. That's straightforward. If a dog was under-socialised, then you socialise it more. The more dogs you study, the more you realise how different - but conversely how similar - they all are.

A Forum such as this is for the exchange of information - and that includes opinions!

Alina, I could be wrong but if you don't join to either ask or answer questions then what is the point of joining a discussion forum.

Thanks Alina!  That is exactly how I feel, I almost didn't come back after people talking to each other about the terrible life my dogs must have, and why did I get dogs if I can't spend 24/7 with them?  As if people don't understand that sometimes circumstances change, sometimes you have to spend less time at home than you would like.

But ... there has been some good ideas/advice among the rude ones, so I did get something out of it.  Anyway, I have also found a group for people with aggressive dogs, so hoping they can help me out. 

Thanks ~~

Have you been reading the same board I've been reading Growlybear? Who exactly has been rude to you? I trust you don't mean me?

I must say that I feel you have been extremely rude to people on here who have offered advice which rather obviously you did not want to hear. Unfortunately, when you post on a board you will receive replies. If you only want a pat on the back then please say so in the post and we will know how to answer you.

John

Hello John,

Well ... here is one example of rude, "John, I agree totally. It seems a very unhealthy situation to say the least for the poor dogs." - This person isn't even talking to me, he/she is talking to you about MY dogs and how I take care of them, nor did they have any advice for me about what to do or what to change to help MY dogs. 

Also, I have considered the advice people have given.  I even wanted to discuss, with you, about my older dogs' socialization and what I could have missed, but you didn't respond to that.  So what 'advice' was offered that I didn't hear?  I trust you don't mean 'advice' offered by yourself???  If you did, what was it, because I certainly missed anything but assumptions from you.

~~ Growly

I did not post any further Growlybear because I felt it would not be taken in the spirit which it was meant. I have better things to do with my time that posting to people who do not want to hear what I have to say. I gave you my honest opinion which you very obviously did not like so I left it at that.

Ok, you gave your opinion, and how is that supposed to help?  Saying that my younger girl is not potty trained and that my boy wasn't properly socialized, but not giving any advice about what to do now???  Sorry, I didn't want your honest opinion (everyone has one), I wanted advice.

There is a difference? Without an opinion there can be no advice! If a person gives advice they must have an opinion and vice verser. If you do not understand why you are getting a particular responce from a dog you can never find a solution to the problem. I would have thought that was obvious. I started down that route but forget it, you obviously know better than me.

Well, if that was your intent, then you forgot to include the advice part.

After the reception I received I have no intention of following up with any advice.

We come here for two reasons. One is to try to help people, too put a little back for the pleasure our dogs have given us and two is for a little fun. What we do not come here for is to receive abuse from the very people we are trying to help.

Your reply to my original post finished:-

<<Thanks for depressing me by making a big deal of an issue that I don't currently need advice on>>

So I figure that if you dont need advice I wont bother giving it.

<<<I have better things to do with my time>>>

I was wondering about the same thing...

I'll leave this thread you you to play with on your own.

Bye

I don't think you should be taking him to a children's playground - fence or no fence.  The children will not know that they are expected to stay behind, or not approach the fence.

John, I agree totally. It seems a very unhealthy situation to say the least for the poor dogs. If the so-called behaviourist hasn't even questioned this set-up before talking about drugs, etc she ,excuse me for being blunt, must be totally useless. I wondered about how long the dogs were left, and also wonder why this poster has dogs if she has to leave them for so long? Do not wish to offend but really do not think it's right to leave them this long daily and then try to get some behaviourist to sort out what is obviously a direct result of them being left. just mho

Does this 'behaviourist' expect you to take your boy to the playground on your own?  Has she given you any advice on stress signals in dogs?

I am also struggling to believe that a behaviourist with 20 years experience (experience in what?????) is suggesting behaviour modification in such a way that an already fearful dog is reduced even further - what he needs is to have his confidence raised - perhaps by plenty of bonding through training sessions, several times a day.  He also needs to know he can look to you for instruction in a stressful situation, for you to be able to tell him what to do, such as look at you, or retreat behind you while YOU deal with the situation. 

Hi Digger - Thank you, I also agree with the confidence thing, but I'm not sure how to help him.  He is a very smart dog, he loves classes.  Maybe I should take him to agility or something???  But, he is short, so I'm not sure he can do agility. 

I have started training sessions with them both when I come home from lunch.  I am home for an hour, I train them each for about 10 minutes, then we play.  I only started this at the same time I started confining him when gone.  I didn't know if this would help the situation though, or how long it will take.  I have also started making him sit before we walk, before he gets in the car, and before eating.

Do you think this alone would be enough though?  Without trying to expose him to children?  The trainer does expect me to take him on my own.  There are several schools in my area, and she suggested that I take him to a school game or something, where we can sit far away and as long as he is relaxed and can see children, I am supposed to give him praise.  If the children disappear, I am supposed to stop praising.  If he starts to react fearfully (growling or showing aggressive body language) then we leave.

I would like to do another class with him.  What else is there besides agility?  He has been through obedience up to advanced.  In our advanced class, we did a tiny bit of agility at the end.  He did very well, but they had to lower all the obstacles for him and he had to go last (which, he did not like).

Anyway ... thanks for the suggestion, this is an idea I will think about.

Just like to say I hope you manage to get this problem sorted and also I have a pup that is left on his own during the day twice a week and this hadsnt caused him any problems. We cant all be as fortunate as some of the readers who feel we are not looking after our dogs CORRECTLY by not being with them 24/7.  Regards Melanie

SOME people are able to make a success of being an absent owner Melanie but not all. As one yourself you above all others should know the difficulties of house training in absence. Also large periods of free time need to be devoted to socialising the puppy placing severe limits on the owner's social life. Add to that, some breeds take rather easier to the lonely life than others.

If it works for you then great. I'm pleased for you. But please remember, the rescues are full of dogs where it did NOT work.

John

Hi , I thought these dogs were being left alone every day...apologies if I got it wrong.....fully appreciate that some owners , probably most, have to leave their pets a couple of days a week....just don't agree with getting dogs and leaving them most of the day, every day....

It sounds like your dogs aren't socialized from early on. If it were me, I'd have one calm 10 yr old neighbor child come to your house and sit down quietly and gently and gradually introduce the dogs to kids.

Your dogs need more contact with you, more of a relationship. I wouldn't lock them in a pen while I was at home. They need you, need to be touched, patted, played with, worked with, cuddled.

That's my .02 worth.

Carrie

Thanks Caroline!  That is a GREAT idea.  Unfortunately, most children in my neighborhood are babies (under 3) - but I'm sure I can find an older kid.  That is a great idea!!!

John if i were you I wouldnt waste  my time as obviously we are on planet cuckoo here  (((ducking))

ground controll to major tom ;)

There has been so much to read on this thread that I've tended to skim. I re read your post and see my mistake in mine to you. It's just the one dog who growls at kids. And he was socialized as you took him to work with you as a pup. Was he socialized at work with children? Or was it just adults?

My Dobe is more socialized and Ok with adults than kids. He's a wee bit leary of smaller children, but not aggressive. I have had a hard time finding enough kids in the rural area I live in. There are some and they came to sled on my hill in winter, at which time Lyric got use to them and even romped and played, licked their cold faces, wiggled his stubby tail and stole their plastic sleds, thinking they were great big frisbees. He still doesn't see kids every day, so if he does, he is quite suspicious at first, but overcomes it. He's not afraid, just skeptical and just for about 30 seconds or so.

But like I said, if you very, very gently and unforcably expose him to just one nice calm child and increase a little at a time as he becomes completely comfortable with each step you increase, he may overcome this. But you'll have to be careful. The growling I believe should be responded to with a calm, unangry "no" and then when he's quiet, "good" treats etc. I'd only have the child stay for a short time for a while. You better bake some cookies if you have a little helper.

If you don't have many kids around or you don't plan on having the dog around kids ever, then I'd bag it and don't try to make him get use to kids. But then you'll have to be very dilligent that he never does get around any.

If he was indeed socialized properly when you got him that's good. But socialization should really continue forever, maybe not with such frequency, but occasional exposure to things should go on. Maybe he's bred poorly and comes from poor temperamented dogs. That can definitely happen. It just seems so odd for a Golden Retriever to have this kind of temperament if you have socialized it to kids as well as adults and if enough time is spent interacting with the dog. When you're at home, be with him instead of locking him up in a crate or pen....cuddle, touch, brush, teach a trick, watch tv together. My dogs love a channel called animal plannet. Do you get that? Lyric watches intently and Jose barks at the animals. It's hard to watch. I have to keep explaining that it's only a tv and not real. He just doesn't believe me. One time Lyric walked along side the tv and looked around behind it and then back at the screen again. LOL.

From reading the other posts, the reasons people came up with for why your dog may be behaving this way is from experience with dogs and understanding of canine behavior. Since no one knows you personally, there is an objectiveness going on here. Sometimes it's hard to hear objective opinions because they're plain and unsweetened. Some of the reasons are hurtful because no one, naturally wants to think they're not giving enough time to their dogs. But I don't think anyone was rude. That is just what some people are seeing and deriving their opinion from.

I wish you the best and hope that you can find a good trainer who doesn't force things on your dog. This should be handled with kid gloves. (pardon the pun)

Carrie

"Since no one knows you personally,"
Carrie, some of us here DO know John personally and because we know of his knowledge and experience, we respect and value his opinion.  Some of us have many yearsworth of dog experience ourselves, and when we have a problem, John is the one who's opinion we ask and we value!  Those who don't know him miss out on that. 
The internet is wonderful medium for getting information, but unless you know the experience of the poster, it can be a "dic*head" who just likes to see their name in print, and there are enough of them about, even on this brilliant board! ;)

What would you like me to do?

Carrie

"But like I said, if you very, very gently and unforcably expose him to just one nice calm child and increase a little at a time as he becomes completely comfortable with each step you increase, he may overcome this. But you'll have to be careful. The growling I believe should be responded to with a calm, unangry "no" and then when he's quiet, "good" treats etc. "

I am sorry but this is entirely the wrong advice in this situation; at no time should the word "NO" be used in conjunction with the dog growling at the appearance of children as this will just confirm that being around children is dangerous! 

Counterconditioning dogs in this situation should, IMHO, be only carried out, if at all, under expert supervision and with "trained" children otherwise the potential for disaster, both in the short and long term is too great.

Unfortunately there are a lot of GRs with suspect temperaments in the UK because of poor breeding practices and this no doubt holds true for the US.