It is my opinion that if you make a dog do something, such as coming by pulling towards you, regardless of whether you reward or not he will still not CHOOSE to do it when you can't make him.  Therefore I always encourage my dogs to make their own decisions.

I see....Yes, it would be best for them to problem solve and figure it out. I do that in other areas so why didn't I do it with the recall? Hmmm. OK, let me get this straight (I seem to be a little slow here)...So with your dogs, the choice is (you've stepped on the line so they can't go forward) they either come back to you or stand where they are or wander off to the side as far as the lead will allow. Have you already asked them to "come?"  Or are you completely letting them decide? This is getting interesting. I sure like seeing this different angle. Oh dang...I gotta run...agility class! I'll check back later. Thanks a million. You don't have to spend so much time on me if you don't want to. I am kind of dense sometimes.

Carrie

Thanks Sally,

Well, that sounds great and makes sense. I'd like to do it that way too. What do you do when (or if) they make the decision NOT to come, but you really, really need for them to come to you?

Havoc,

You started this thread. What would you do? Just like to hear different takes on this. I want to get a reliable, consistant recall.

Thanks.

Carrie

Carrie,
Sorry, I havent been ignoring you. I didnt spot page 2 of this thread until tonight! Not sure I can do your question justice at midnight so i'll come back to it when less tired!

My initial post suggested that it WAS possible to get a really good recall from the right breed of dog trained right from the start, where no breakdown in control had been allowed to develop. However, I suggested that I had seen very little evidence of people 100% fixing a recall problem once they had allowed it to develop. Sally has, so I certainly wouldnt discount her advice (despite our different methods!)

Morning Carrie,  You only had to go to your agility class, we had to go to bed. :)
In answer to that question.  If I had a dog on a line my choices would be.  Walk up the line and take the collar or attach lead.  Encourage the dog with the offer of a reward.  Give the dog's reward to another dog.  Eat the reward myself.  Take a good book out with me.  If the dog wasn't on a line then all of the above apart from walk up the line plus.-  Kneel on the ground and have a conversation with a blade of grass.  Jump up and down and scream like a banshee. Tell the dog what an ungrateful little so and so he/she is and tomorrow they are going back to the rescue.   Not really.  The one thing that I have done on the odd occasion that Hovis has played me up and not wanted to come in from the field which adjoins the house is to leave him there and go indoors.  (It is safe we are off road with a large frontage on to common).  He will then run to the front door and push it open but run back to the field if I tell him to come in.  So I just shut the door on him and get on with whatever I am doing and we repeat the whole thing until he decides to come in.  Hovis has a screw loose and whilst he is very capable of learning you couldn't make him do anything he didn't want to. :D
Sally

Also not to be forgotton that dogs are highly discriminatory :D  They "know" when that line is on and when it is not.....................

Yes you certainly started the ball rolling with this one havoc and at the end of the day I think all of us except competition people want only one thing for our dogs and that's a reliable safe recall .
I said I don't have a recall but that's not always true, I mean I know if I let him off sometimes he will come even occasionally without a treat but after his escapde with the road that did it for me.
I understand what you are saying about trainers who have been at it for years but my trainers were both qualified and recognised APDT and the second was also APBC and APDT, my APDT trainer had a university degree! There is a whole world of difference between qualified trainers of their calibre and those who simply set up and start without qualifications, no matter how long they have been doing non-qualified training. But looking through this very interesting thread I really think that al dogs do have some kind of weakness, for want of a better word which simply, somehow, makes it impossible for dogs to have a really reliable recall most of the time.
I thought about this all night and what I think is that a reliable recall , when the dogs interested in something else, is something we would all like to think exists but simply does not exist beyond our dreams. I was just someone who get a BIG fright, but if that had not happened I would have just had the inconvenience factor and might not have noticed so many other dogs like mine, they just haven't ended up in a road, I mean really havoc do you seriously believe a reliable recall al the time is possible?

OK, now I see what you are saying...that you are accepting that you have no recourse and that you are just going to let the dog decide if it will come or not and either walk away, go inside and hope it comes, do something else in the meantime until it comes, or go get it. I guess I just can't do that. My dogs do better than that as it is. It's just that they're not reliable if they see something that kicks them into prey drive gear. Is that how you do it with sit, down, stay, heel etc? Do you leave it up to them to decide?

Other than that I can most often get them to come because they normally wish to do what I want. They get to have a party if they come. The alternative isn't pretty. They get grounded to their rooms and don't get to ride their bikes for a week, no friends over and no ice cream. LOL.

Agility was great. Lyric is unbelievably compliant with coming to me when I call him, even when we're in between activities and he's not wearing a leash. He has no intention of running off. I guess it's just too much fun right there with all the dogs. He love's them all, but doesn't insist on going up to them constantly and just comes along with me and does his "work." If he does go over to sniff noses with a dog, the minute I say, "come Lyric," he does. Sometimes I'll just be standing there waiting for a turn on something and he'll turn and walk away a few feet and go all by himself up the wall or through the tunnel. He loves doing all this stuff and will do it on his own if I don't ask him to. Funny. I never tell him "no" or any other negative vocalization when doing agility. It's for fun and nothing more. My goodness, he ate a lot of monzerella cheese there.

So, I figure if my dogs that I've had before were reliable, especially a GSD I had, I can get a trustworthy recall out of my new puppy. But I didn't leave it up to that dog whether or not he wanted to come. I insisted on his obedience and he was. He had the most reliable recall I ever saw, deer, cats, you name it. He still focused on me when I called him and he came every time. My Lab....well....if she see a duck in the water, forget it. She's on a mission to swim out there and catch that duck. LOL. Other than that, she pretty much comes whenever she's called, if she hears me. I am getting the feeling that she's losing some of her hearing because she's getting worse about coming in her old age. It could be that sense of deserving or entitlement that old ladies get. But sometimes she suddenly looks up after I've called a second time and looks very suprised, like, "oh, why didn't you say so?"

I guess I have high expectations. (?????) Thanks for all your replies.

Carrie

I was always taught that it is easier to stop a dog from running after something than it is to recall it at that time. If you can teach your dog a reliable "Down" when he is running that is generally enough to get him to change his mind about going after whatever he was interested in. A dog is far more likely to recall from a 'down' than when it is in full flight.
:)

Thats a good point, and with most distractions I would blow the stop whistle (or call "sit") Then call the dog up when it had stopped. Some breeds naturally drop into a down more naturally than others. For a gundog I would prefer a sit so they can still see whats going on, whereas collies seem to be more happy to drop flat.

Hmmmmm but if you cannot train a recall can you train a drop on command?

No probably not, you need both 'tools in the bag'. However, if a rabbit pops up in front of my dogs nose then i will instinctively get it to sit first, then call it back if required.

The thing is that most people train a dog to recall from a static position. Training classes etc get you to put your dog into a sit or down, and call it from there. Recall is therefore more familiar to a dog under these circumstances. I haven't heard of any training class that teaches recall when the dog is running away from the handler. Even in competition obedience the outrun appears to always be followed by a down or sit, never a recall.

We all know that a dog doesn't necessarily associate the 'sit' action in different situations. It 'obeys' perfectly in training class or in the living room, but doesn't always know the same action is required in the garden or in the street. Likewise it may only think that 'come here' means a recall from when it is stationary.
:)

>...that you are accepting that you have no recourse and that you are just going to let the dog decide if it will come or not and either walk away, go inside and hope it comes, do something else in the meantime until it comes, or go get it. I guess I just can't do that.

Blimey Carrie,  you make it sound as if I just let my dogs do what they want.  That really isn't the case. I have 12 dogs in the house.  They have to be obedient and do as I ask.  It's just that I use training methods that teach the dog to do things because they WANT to not because they HAVE to.  You must remember being at school and being better at the subjects you enjoyed than the ones you didn't but were made to do anyway. ;)  We teach obedience, agility, loads and loads of tricks, dabble in HTM and two of them have got an acting job tomorrow. :D  

Hovis was trying to get me to back out with him by opening the front door and running back.  I did the exact opposite to what he expected me to do with the result that he CHOSE to come in.  Now he comes in every time.
Sally

Dogs will always do what is in their best interests and what is most exciting; hence why in competition a lot of poorly trained dogs do not obey the "recall" command when pulled off a chase after a criminal because the "bite" is more exciting.  All training is a balancing act and the skill in training is shaping behaviours by being predictably unpredictable so that the dog never knows what is happening next.

If a dog happens to be "outside your sphere of influence" then it will NOT obey you.  Again, your sphere of influence will depend on how much and how well you have trained your dog. :D  Some people's sphere of influence does not, in reality, extend to when their dog is on the lead let alone let off!  With careful, consistent, relentless training, your sphere of influence will expand until you should be able to control your dog some distance away (by some I mean 1/2 mile or so if necessary). 

Your dog would then need to be "proofed" against distractions; just as a "job/police/security dog" is proofed against joggers, gundogs against hare/rabbit etc all dogs need to be proofed against their particular "thing", be it other dogs, cats, joggers, cyclists, people, balls etc etc etc.  If your dog will not obey you on the lead in the presence of these distractions it is hardly going to do it when it is up and running.  Just as if your dog ignores you when it is static it will not pay any more attention when it is moving!

Dogs that have been bred specifically to work alongside man and by that I mean all gundogs, working and pastoral breeds should have no problems with recall training provided it has been conducted thoroughly.  Hounds are either noses or eyes on legs and so I would never expect 100% recall from them, and I believe sled dogs are not generally allowed off lead (another specialist dog); terriers were bred to be more independent and generally to "exterminate" things and are not so reliable.

Generally one finds that the obedience of the dog reflects the abilities/dedication of the owner!

There will always be the odd misdemeanour but that is precisely what it should be, an exception rather than the rule.

Nothing in life is impossible!

So how does one go about "proofing" their dog.  You said you have to figure out what your dog's "thing" is.  Kirra's thing is anything that moves, makes noise, smells, or doesn't exist to my senses.  She has been getting better...kinda. Whenever she starts to pull (on leash), after something.  I tell her to sit and stay.  She has gotten really good about this part.  In fact, once I stop moving, she will sit and whimper.  Then when I try to start walking again, she takes off like a mad man again...till the end of the leash.  Then I stop moving again, and the whole process starts again. 

HELP!!!
Drai

"Whenever she starts to pull (on leash), after something.  I tell her to sit and stay.  She has gotten really good about this part.  In fact, once I stop moving, she will sit and whimper.  Then when I try to start walking again, she takes off like a mad man again...till the end of the leash.  Then I stop moving again, and the whole process starts again."

Everytime you stop, Kirra sits, has a bit of a moan about it, and then you step off again.  Who's training who? ;)

I think the dog has "whimper trained" her owner :)

I don't start moving agin until she has stopped whimpering.  Sometimes it is a quick whimper, then when she quits, we proceed.  However, yesterday she was just about howling and barking cause there was something across the street that she wanted to investigate.  She did finally quit, but it went on of a long time. 
Sorry I hadn't clarified that point.

Drai

Shoey,  I thought the original post might cause some debate (but maybe not this much!)

Whilst I wouldnt criticise qualifications in dog training at all, I'm not convinced that they would necessarily make someone a good dog trainer! And I know plenty of people that have never been near a qualification or membership of APDT that are extremely good trainers. I really do think training is much more of an art than a science! Having said that I have no idea how good your trainers were and what dogs they were trying to train. I would say that if they were training something like a labrador or collie from a puppy then they may not have been as good as their qualifications suggest, but if they were training an Afghan or a husky then they may have been brilliant! ;-)

The qualifications themselves will provide a good background, but the BEST qualification must surely be that they consistently train dogs to a high standard? I could study how to play golf for many years, and it may help, but it wont make me a great golfer. If I practise for years, I should get better, particularly with coaching, but the bottom line is that I will NEVER make a great golfer because I just havn't got the natural ability. :-(  (and even if I WAS a great golfer, I may not be a great golf teacher! ;-D ) 

I do genuinely believe that you can have a reliable recall all the time. I can do it with my dogs, and so do plenty of people I know. Now obviously there are no 100% certainties with any living creature, but if I stop and recall my dogs I am confident that they are going to do it. Now i'm not saying that its possible with all breeds or all individuals within a breed. I simply dont know. I use a breed of dog that is naturally compliant, and I think tohme's summary of the different breed types below is pretty accurate.

Hi All, I am not an experienced 'trainer' but have trained many dogs at home and in kennels with what I hope has been common sense and above all  patience. I meet a lot of people with dogs who  go to training classes and this is an excellent thing but..it seems to me so many of them rush the training and only train 'in class'!  It seems to be stating the obvious to say make sure a dog can complete a simple command like 'sit' and and 'sit and stay' before they move on to recall or anything else, but people don't, they rush on without giving their dog the time to totally absorb one thing, 'keeping up with the class'. I like to be absolutly sure a dog will do as I ask every time before I move on to another command. Each command is then reinforced over and over as part of daily life until it is second nature...  as Tohme says "relentless consistant training".  By the time I get to 'recall' the dog has confidence in itself and me as pack leader and is used to following commands without hesitation. I have trained mainly Cockers and Mini Schnauzers (o and a wayward Cairn). :-)

..can I also add if you take on a 'trained' dog and have trouble with recall it often helps to start again from scratch with the simple things like 'sit and stay' until as I said each step becomes second nature.  :-))

If my dog had to get one command down pat before moving onto something else, he'd be incredibly bored. In fact that would bore any one of my dogs. When they're brand new puppies, I can see concentrating on one "trick" like sit or down because they're already having to learn so much as far as house manners, potty training, on and on. But as they age and have gotten the idea about how to learn, I think you can work on more than one command for sure. I always have and my dogs have always been pretty well trained, albeit not perfect.

Horses aren't as intelligent as dogs. I've trained horses. And even they need to have a variety of things to do to keep from getting bored and they're quite capable of learning a few things during a session.

I agree, that you shouldn't bombard them with a cazillion different tasks to confuse them, but there's a happy medium I think.

Carrie

"Blimey Carrie!" LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Hee hee hee hee hee. I totally love that expression! I've got to use that one here in Idaho!!!! I am still laughing so hard. You have just made my day.

I know you don't let your dogs do anything they want. I know what you mean. Make the dog WANT to come to you. Make whatever you have in store for it more exciting and better than whatever it is he is doing at the time where it's not appearing that he might want to come. I'm sure I can get my Dobe to have a good recall. It's already pretty, darn good without big distractions and I'll just keep practicing and giving him a really good time when he does come. How does that sound?

Thanks you guys!

Carrie

Quote from Carrie :
"Havoc,
You started this thread. What would you do? Just like to hear different takes on this. I want to get a reliable, consistant recall."

I've been mulling this answer over for a couple of days, and the honest answer is that I dont know! I would base whatever method I used completely on the level of relationship I managed to achieve with the dog and my assessment of its individual temperament.

My approach to this issue would probably be very different to most on here, as I simply could not tolerate owning a dog that didn't have a reliable recall. I really do feel that life is too short to be waiting / hoping for a dog to come back. And I'm certainly not going to subject a dog to a life permanantly on a lead. For this reason, if I 'found myself' with an adolescent or adult dog with a poor recall I would make it my business to sort it out using whatever means I thought necessary.

The way I LIKE to train a recall is be constantly be calling the dog to me for a fuss. (I would use treats or toys, but only if fuss doesn't work, as I like to make 'me' the motivation if at all possible!).

I like to get my dogs absolutely tuned in to my voice, so he knows exactly when I am happy with what he is doing and when i am not! Thus if the dog gets really focussed on a scent (or whatever) I will use a sharp voice to catch his attention. As soon as he looks at me - soft encouraging voice to come in. I've just sold a 9 week old pup with a nice recall (in the garden!) using this method.

I build up the level of freedom I allow the dog quite gradually (even though they are always off the lead doing this training) only allowing them to run off for a short time and distance before I call them back.

If I was trying to improve an older dog, I would actually start by giving it very limited freedom, and spend most of my time with the dog building up its obedience at close quarters. Lots of heel work, sits and stays, formal recalls etc. I would also limit the amount of time I spent with the dog, certainly no following me round the house to the bathroom. It amuses me how dogs that constantly follow their owners around the house, take off into the sunset when out free-running. (Being with the owner just isnt enough of a treat!).

If the dog had a high prey drive, I may condsider 'conditioning' it into ignoring prey (possibly using tame rabbits or sheep). Once again this completely depends on the individual dog. I think it may help with a Doberman.

I also always try and follow the rules that I have previously posted above.

Thank you Havoc. I just saw your post. Yes, I tend to agree with you that I just...out of past habits with my dogs, cannot wait for them to decide. I tend to do like you. Just like children, they have to learn that it's not all about what they want. Lyric is really very good when there are no major distractions and very good at agility class when there are distractions galore. He's off leash much of the time and he is explicitly obedient to come and everything else. I think with him, it helps when he is in that "working" mode....way of thinking. If we're just out on an off leash walk, I practice calling him many times and he comes. But it's when he sees something and runs toward it, that I don't even dare say, "come." I wait till he's lost interest which he does soon thereafter. He doesn't ever go far.

I like your idea about practicing calling him with intentional moving distractions. I'll do that. I don't think I'll find a tame rabbit. LOL. But my other dogs are sometimes a distraction to him. I think the Chihuahuas look like mini rabbits. LOL. Good thing he knows otherwise, huh.

I agree. A reliable recall is absolutely necessary. Dobermans are so dang lightening fast that you don't have time to screw around. So far he hasn't had the prey drive "attack" to the point of running too fast after anything, but that could come. It's more like he just wants to go check something out pretty badly and becomes hearing challenged. LOL.

Thanks so much for your input and terrific advice!

Carrie

Carrie, I can understand why you dare not say "come" when he's distracted but I think you may be missing a trick! I know you dont want him to learn to ignore you, but your never going to know if you've got a really obedient dog unless you test him! Next time he gets distracted, try and attract his attention. Do whatever you need to do, i would use a sharp verbal "ah ah" (dont really know how to spell the sound I make! lol). If you can catch his attention, then call him in. Try and use a moderate rather than intense distraction the first time you try it. Remember that time you called your dog off the bear, you would have had to REALLY break his concentration BEFORE you called him back.

I would say that if all your close up obedience is up to scratch, it might just work. If it doesnt work, then dont keep trying at this stage as you dont want him to learn to ignore you. (I can tell your already cautious about this) Best tip I can give you though is to be confident, I'm convinced it helps to absolutely BELIEVE that they are going to obey.

Thanks a million Havoc!

Yes, I do do that....make weird noises and sometimes run the other way which totally entices him and when he comes running toward me, I say come in a very cheerful way. It usually works. Today we went for the first time this season on a long hike on a mountain trail just here, where I live. He does what my GSD did. He runs ahead and then he comes running back to make sure we're all coming along. He does have those herding instincts. LOL. It's cute. And since they do stay on the trail (it was too steep and messy if they went off) there's not the width that he had on the golf course. If he can't see me and he's up around a bend a little ways, and I call, he comes running like I've sounded an alarm. He's absolutely sure his assistance is needed. LOL. So, he is getting pretty good I think and it's just the breed to which helps.

But there was one distraction today, two people and all the dogs ran to greet them. They're all friendly and tails wagging (except Lyric...he's gotta size 'em up first, assess things, no aggression, just looking at them, then his tail goes full throttle too) and none could hear me over Chihuahua dogs' yapping. (They do yap when they see someone at first.) They're sure something fun is going to happen. It's terribly exciting....like a party. They're very friendly, but they yap until they get to the people. Then they stop and want to be picked up. Thank God it's a rare thing to run into another person around here. Plus, not only was it embarrassing to have those dogs running up to them, but on top of it all, I had been singing at the top of my lungs to scare off the bears. LOL. So, those people probably heard my rendition of Jewel's "Who Will Save Your Soul" before I came around the corner. LOL. a-h-h-h. If I had trained the Chi's better under distractions such as people, maybe Lyric would come back better. So, that's where some intense work is needed.

Thanks again!

Carrie

Carrie,
just to refer back to one of my earlier posts......

"1. Dont let your dog 'free run' with another dog until his recall is acceptable, particularly in areas where "distractions" are likely to occur.
2. If you must ignore 1., then make sure the 'other dog' has a very, very good recall.
3. If you must ignore 1 and 2 then wear some trainers & make sure you can run very fast! lol"

My advice....Leave the other dogs at home (lol)

I have always walked my youngest on a lead only occasionly off when we have enough people to get her as she bombs off lol. or did untill last week
last week we decided to try her in a quite park  with pathways we were dreading getting her back im amazed she listend to every word , stay , come here , and wait .
my training in the garden must have paid off . and now shes been in the park off everyday and with the more freedom we find she actully waits herself .
I think the problem was she was quite young and too excited Not food or toy interested while out :rolleyes: . shes 100% good at home can even leave the door open and she wont leave  it was the only problem we had with her :) im so happy shes over come her running problem

i would have had a nervous breakdownif i had to wait till 2years before i had a100% recall, i guess i might have it easy as i have Bcollies & they want to be with you,but ive never had a recall problem with them,by the time they are old enough for a walk i would expect them to come back, i would be horrified if they didnt! i generally have more trouble getting them to leave me, nellie especially, if nell has gone more than a meter away form me then shes probaley having a poo!
last year tara chased a squirrel, as she flew past me at 100 miles per hour i shouted her name & err she came back!!! i would have been amazed if she hadnt!!!
my friend has a dog with a bad recall, & it scares me to death when we walk together,dont know how she dosent have a heart attack on every walk!
saying all that ive only ever had border collies-so maybe im cheating!
(my horse had a good recall though!& no body touched her till she was 4!)

I noticed at the weekend, that I am the one being trained in recalls!  I recently got the pro-train liver bits, and started keeping them in my pocket to reward Millie for coming back.

On Saturday, I noticed over the park, that every so often when I was minding my own business (OH was playing/watching her), she would run over to me and nudge the lead in my hand and sit down waiting for her treat, then run off again to play! :-D

No, she's still doing the recall even if you didn't call her.  Some people might advise not rewarding something you didn't ask for but I would reward mine for wanting to be with me or maybe pretend I hadn't seen them and then step away and call just so that I could practice getting it right.

Dog training person to do recall is the owner that follows the dog all of the time and the dog that stands still when you call and waits for you to go to them. :)

Sally

Ah-hah, I see the difference!

I agree, I like rewarding her for coming over to me - if she actually makes a point of coming over specifically as if she has been called to sit near me and wait for a treat, as my thinking was that its showing her that I am a nice person to be around when on a walk, even if there's exciting stuff going on elsewhere, and that something nice lies in store if she does come to me. :-)