I"m sorry - I know I've gone over this before but I'm feeling so confused and frustrated and fed-up that I hope you don't mind if I bring this up again:

As most of you know, we're having issues with Honey going beserk when she sees another dog and lunging and dragging me across to meet them. I have had lots of suggestions on how to help this behaviour and they fall into 2 groups: either get a choke chain or get a Halti. Now, I have done my own extensive research on each - even years before I got a dog, I was following every debate and piece of info on them, so I'm familiar with the pros and cons. I had my own doubts - namely, with the choke chain whether I could use it effectively  or would she simply learn to ignore the pressue around her throat, whereas with the Halti, I worried about the "muzzle" impression it gave and also whether it was a cop-out and not really training my dog.

I've been getting advice from everyone and although I know it is well-meaning, it is usually delivered in a really aggressive, opinionated, patronising way and I feel very resentful of that. I know I this is my first dog but I do have a brain and I do do my own research and I do have some knowledge of dog behaviour so I'm not just going to suck things up like an idiot without offering counter-arguments or asking why!!!!
The two main people are my obedience trainer, who is very pro-Halti and insists that they are a great way to control a dog and that choke chains would simply make her neck muscles stronger until I was in a even worse position than with her current soft collar and lead.
At the other end of the scale are my breeders who are vehementaly anti-Halti and pro-choke chain. They say the Halti is a cop-out and that it doesn't give me real control or show the dog that I'm in command. They say that it can hurt the neck too if jerked back. And most of all, they say that it gives people the wrong impression of Danes (muzzle - vicious dog) when the breed really needs good ambassadors. They insist that the choke chain is the only real way to gain control over my dog and show her who is boss.

The thing is, I'd gone out in the last week and gotten a Halti (a Gentle Leader, actually) and we've been doing very well on it during walks - she is no longer pulling and I feel so much more in control of her. I don't have aching arms or to be constantly tense because she might yank me...and we have met dogs a few times and although I still have to "control" her, it is definitely a LOT easier. She just can't pull and yank like she used to - or rather, she doesn't want to. So I can't agree with my breeders that the Halti gives no control. Yet at the same time, I do want to make sure that I'm training my dog and not taking a cop-out route. I'm not afraid to use the choke chain, even if it means it's going to be a longer, more difficult way with more training required - and I have to admit, I still don't like the "muzzle" impression the Halti gives.

So now I don't know what to do! We were doing so well on the Halti but I don't know if we ought to be switching over to the choke chain, following what my breeders have said or what?

Please don't all jump down my throat at once! Am feeling really emtionally drained - I know they just mean well but I feel like everytime I talk to someone, they are all so obsessed with their own viewpoint and completely closed-minded about any other- and almost lecture you on how their way is absolutely right. Everyone always has evidence and studies supporting their viewpoint and disqualifying the others. And everyone can always say that the other way causes injury to the dog!
I'm just trying to do the best thing for my dog and I find it exhausting having to deal with all these extremely prejudiced views all the time...in the end, because you know they are horribly prejudiced, you end up losing faith in what they say  anyway because you just don't know if anything they say has real value, since they are so prejudiced. And they say it all (unintentionally but still) in such a patronising way, as if they expect you to just lap it up and fawn over their superior knowledge - when actually, you have your own brain and you can see flaws in their argument and don't necessarily feel that you have to just blindly accept everything they say without questioning it.

Sorry - this is a bit of a rant but I'm just feeling really tired and fed-up. I feel like in no other area of my adult life do I let people patronise me and lecture me so much and tell me what I should do -and yet I'm still getting nowhere and still as confused as ever!


Hsin-Yi

Hi Hsin-Yi

I would not recommend either of these tools as a solution for your problem.

I would be inclined to do some attention exercises with her - heelwork, sit and watch you, playing with tug toy - do these and really get her focued on you and use a word just before you start such as work or playtime so she knows what is coming.  Do this a lot - training really develops a bond between handler and dog.

Then, when you do see other dogs and before she starts pulling do some of these with her so that she is more focused on you because you are more interesting than the other dogs.

Just a different opinion to confuse you even more :)

Thanks, Kerioak! - This IS sort of what I have been trying but unfortunately, other dogs really are more interesting - and with her normal collar, I just have no control over her and can't prevent her lunging or anything. Whereas, with something that gives me more control, I can at least  "check" her and bring her attention back to me - otherwise it's just her dragging me and me yelling at her ("Honey, Sit! Sit! Heek! Sit! Stay!") and her totally deaf.

I had been really trying it your way for a long time and felt like I was a failure in training if I had to use anything other than her normal collar but I had to finally admit that unfortunately, when your dog weighs 42kg and you only weigh 50kg, you really do need some help.

But I do take your point and I will do more training with her. It's just that at the moment, I have no control over her and she senses this and makes things worse. I know control is supposed to come from training but initially, when you have to tell them off or check them or show them who's boss, until they respect you again, you do need to be able to show them that you can do it - not let them see that actually, you're more puny than they are and that you can't really "make" them do anything. Don't they always say not to let your dog suspect that you can't make them do things? They follow verbal commands because it never crossed their minds that they can refuse and disobey you - but to get them to think like that in the first place (if they are already disobeying) needs you to physically "check" them once or twice, so that they can see that - otherwise, they'll never have any reason to listen to you!

Go with your gut feeling and what you are most comfortable with and what, more importantly, your dog is most comfortable with.

Nothing you do in life will pass without comment or opinion (informed or not); that's life.

Make a decision and go with it; at the end of the day you are a woman, you can change your mind :D

decide what is more important to you "other people's impressions" or your dog and your control over it.

There and not once did I give you my opinion on which piece of equipment was "right" :D

hsinyi,
You've been given apparantly contraditory advice. The things is they are probably both right! There are loads of different ways to train a dog to do (or not do) a particular thing. I would say that the technique you use is not the most important thing, but your attitude. Find a method that YOU are happy with, if it seems to work then stick with it! I'd probably give you different advice to many other people on here but we'd all be confident we could sort the problem out with our own dogs.

IMO training is 30% technique and 70% attitude. There are loads of different techniques & they can all be explained quite easily. The attitude bit is about having the determination that you are definitely going to succeed, not quit when the going gets tough and the temperament to be able to adapt whatever method you use to the individual dog. This is the bit that is REALLY difficult to get into someone if its not there. This is how some people can learn to train very quickly, because the 70% was already 'in them' before they even touched a dog! You really do seem determined enough, so I would advise you to follow your insticts about what will work with YOUR dog.

Hope I havent patronised you (at least not too much ;-) )

I cant think of a better example of what I was saying about technique v attitude. From what I have read from tohme's posts I am sure we would use different techniques to train your dog, but our advice (the attitude) was the same!

Hi Hsinvi, relax first :)I have used a Gentle Leader with my boy who used to have the attention span of a gnat and like Honey felt every dog was his friend or saviour, every leaf a fugitive from justice etc. The GL gave me enough control to use Kerioaks suggestions about focusing him on me and preventing a mad rush across roads etc. He now walks on a normal collar and lead and is well mannered in greeting people and dogs. What I found is you need to pick a mentor whose advice rings true for you, stick to that one and try the strategies for at least 2 weeks before deciding whether it works or not. Others may laugh (and I am the local joke :D) or criticise but dont justify yourself or argue, when given unasked for advice you just smile and say thank you. I know its exhausting and frustrating this stage, but you will get through it. So no practical suggestions from me, just have lots of hot baths, be patient with yourself and Honey and get someone to massage you frequently. :D Youll be telling us she walked past a dog calmly soon.

I dont have any suggestions about the halti or the choke chain but I have a 2 year old newfoundland that used to lunge very badly when I got him at the age of 6 mths.   He so wanted to meet other dogs but every dog (and their owners!) were terrified at the sight of the huge black lunging monster.   I took him to every game fair/dog show etc that I could so that wherever he turned there was a dog to meet.  After only one show there was a huge improvement and eventually he got to the stage where he couldnt be bothered to greet other dogs let alone lunge.

There's a name for that floozy - its called Implosion Therapy :D :D :D (or Flooding)[in Psychology] and as you've found out it works a treat :D 

I used this with my Bedlington as he was uncontrollably excited around people, lunging and jumping on everyone madly.  Attention excercises, toys, treats???  they didn't exist and neither did I once people were about :rolleyes:  so I took him to lots of  open air markets and country fairs, he couldn't jump on everyone at once and just gave up - it was very quick :D

Hi Floozy - it was good to hear your experience with your Newfie as that is a giant breed too and so I feel like at least I know that giant breeds CAN be controllable. I have been taking Honey to a lot of dog shows/Dane club meetings, etc and of course, obedience class and puppy class when she was younger but all those dogs around her just seemed to make her worse - almost like made her hyper excited and even harder to control. When she was lunging in every direction, I just had no hope! What did you do at the first dog show with your Newfie when he lunged? It's amazing that there was so much improvement after just one show. I'm a big fan of desensitisation too so I will definitely continue to try and take her to doggie events....just hope I can survive through them without losing an arm! I suppose it'll be a lot easier now with a Halti or choke chain (I hope!)

Thanks again,
Hsin-Yi

Hi Lorelei,

"He now walks on a normal collar and lead and is well mannered in greeting people and dogs."

That's so reassuring and encouraging to hear that! One of the reasons I was worried about the Halti was that I might end up relying on it and not ever be able to walk "normally" again so it's great to hear that you can do it.

Thanks for all your understanding and encouragement...will go and have a hot bath now! :)
Hsin-Yi

Thanks, Tohme and Havoc - neither of you are patronising - I wasn't accusing people on the forum, I meant more people that I meet in real life - namely, my Obedience class instructor and my breeders! :)

You're right - everyone will always comment, no matter what I choose, so I guess I just have to learn to be more thick-skinned! :) I think my problem was that I was so confused, I couldn't even find a "gut feeling" to follow - everything seemed to have equal pros and cons. It was like everyone said follow your instincts but I couldn't find any to follow! I suppose though, I could always try one way and if it doesn't work, then try the other - and there's no shame in that. As everyone keeps telling me, different things work for different dogs. I'm thinking at the moment that I might give the choke chain a try, since that does feel more like training your dog than just controlling, and if that doesn't work very well, I'll go back to the GL, which I've now used and know works. I'd also have the benefit of being able to say to my breeders that I have tried the choke chain but it hasn't worked on Honey, and I would also not feel bad that I didn't give it a shot.

And interesting point about attitude, Havoc - I've realised that the problem may stem from something else: when we are out walking, Honey is usually on loose leash - slack but she is in front, weaving right and left, sniffing things. I kept feeling sorry for her that she didn't get to "explore" the big wide world if I kept her next to me.
But last night, I started thinking about that and realised that it was just reinforcing her "alpha" role by allowing her to always walk in front - surely, I, as the pack leader, should be first? The one thing her breeders said which I agreed with was that she obviously thought we were alpha in the house ('cos she is so well-behaved and submissive at home) but the minute we left home-territory, she thought she was in alpha position. And that was the root of the problem, because if she respected me more then I would have better control over her when we met dogs and I would be able to "correct" her when she tried to dominate other dogs. So I decided that that was the end of her loose leash. From today, she walks beside me the whole time - except for perhaps 5 mins when she is rewarded with a long leash and a good sniff around. We did our usual 20min walk like this today and I have to say, although it was pretty hard work most of the time, she behaved quite well. I had to keep tugging on the Halti to remind her as she kept trying to surge forward but she wasn't fighting me too much. And I'm also coming down much harder on her in general - making her do Down-Stay's for long period around the house and also outside. We saw a dog on the other side of the street today and I put her into a Sit and we watched the dog walk past - I distracted her with some treats as it passed us on the other side and by the time she finished eating it, the other dog had gone - so I think it was a small success!

Thanks again for all your support and encouragement.
Hsin-Yi

My working cocker has a halti - I don't see this as a permanent fixture but as a training aid which is used in conjunction with a clicker and treats to teach the dog the correct way to walk on a lead (she now has it just for the walk to the park, not on the way back as she is not in any hurry to walk home from the park :-) )  I imagine that your dog will get to a point where she realises that there is no point lunging at a dog, and when she gets to that point, you need to reward her (the halti comes with a leaflet explaining how to reward the dog for correct behaviour, not sure what you got with the gentle leader?)   I wouldn't worry too much about what other people think - it is a bit like bringing up kids, a somewhat emotive subject, and everyone thinks their way is right.  Like you, I don't like the fact that people think the halti is a muzzle, but we both know that it isn't, so how we can be accused of "giving the breed a bad impression" when we are simply trying to train our dogs and it is other people who are ignorant?  At the end of the day, you have a large dog and you can't afford to have her lunge across a road if she sees another dog - your breeder should respect the fact that you are taking the dog to training classes and are trying to remedy the problem, it's not as if you haven't done the research.

Thanks, Rosemarie, for your support. I wish my breeders felt more like you! But I shall just have to learn to "ignore" their orders. They were just a bit horrible about it - saying, "If we had anything to do with it, no dog of ours would ever be seen in public with a Halti - it just gives the most terrible impression to people of Danes being vicious dogs" and then saying that I wasn't really in control and not training my dog, etc, etc,...I felt a bit hurt as this is my first dog ever and getting a powerful, giant breed has not been the easiest choice and I think I have done a fairly good job so far, in that Honey doesn't have any of the other usual puppy problems like mouthing & biting, barking incessantly, jumping up, chewing, etc...instead of which, I felt like a total failure! You know the way sometimes breeders and trainers (and I'm not accusing anyone here on the forum!) sometimes talk down to you with contempt, borne from their superior knowledge and experience with dogs - and really make you feel like a lesser being! Especially if you're only a pet owner and not planning to join their ranks in showing or breeding or training!

Anyway, I will try not to let people get to me so much from now on. Thanks again!
Hsin-Yi

If you are getting good results with a halti, stick with it. The right thing to use is the one that suit you and your dog......if its working, then dont worry about everyone elses thoughts. You wont be able to please everyone, so don't try to. Please dont feel a failure for using either method on your dog.
My affie girl is very obedient, having done her kc silver, but i use a halti on walks, because in a sudden bout of enthusiasm she could pull me over. If people confuse it for a muzzle, I just tell them its not! Its NOT a cop out, whatever people say........safety is paramount. You can still obedience train your dog, and if you wish to withdraw the halti at a later date, you can.

If its working...stick with it. At the end of the day a GD is a big dog and if a halti gives you the control to enable you to train your dog and feel safe then thats great.
No one wants to walk and have to battle...it takes all the pleasure out of it for the person AND the dog
Archer

Whatever works for you and your dog go for it.  I used a hlaf choker on my staffy bitch Tam and it was great.  Now she walks by my side quite casually, for a staffy, on an ordinary lead.

I know quite a few peolpe who have used Halti's and still do with great effect.