An open question based on some of the topics posted in the last few days :

At least two experienced trainers have posted that they would not consider a dog reliable at recall before 2 years old. I'm going out on a limb here, but i would be VERY disapointed if my dogs werent pretty 'bomb-proof' on a recall before their first birthday. By this I mean being able to call them away from other dogs, people, livestock, rabbits, deer, in fact pretty much anything I can think of! Now I really don't think I'm anything special as a trainer, so surely there must be plenty of other dogs out there with reliable recalls?

I know I'm dealing with labradors that are generally a very trainable breed, but I was pretty confident with my Jack Russell before she was a year! I realise the differences between the breeds, and that some are extremely difficult, but surely there must be plenty of breeds that CAN do it?

Not looking for a fight with anyone, just interested in views....

I'd also be interested to hear of anyone who has known an inexperienced trainer ever RELIABLY fixing a bad recall problem with a dog. I'm sure they have, but I haven't met one yet!

My "high prey drive" Weimaraners have always had extremely reliable recalls before 12 months however I expect I, like you, put a great deal more thought and training into my dogs than a lot of people do :D  I certainly meet a great many dog owners who have no recall with their labradors let alone anything a little more "independent"! 

deleted due to duplication :rolleyes;

The amount of people you meet when out walking who say "he doesnt listen to a word i say" and the dog doesnt respond whatsoever
then again the amount of people I have met who dont even ATTEMPT to call their dogs back :rolleyes:
Gus will come back 9 and a half times out of 10 but admittedly on the very "odd" occasion he has taken no notice :(
Hes an 18 month old Staffy

I have no advice or information other than to say I have a Stafford who is neither Lab (generally trainable) nor Weimaraner (high prey drive)
A Stafford is a "terrier" therefore needs a little "forward planning"  by the owner regarding training, especially recall with distractions about - but Sal's was a reliable recall before 12 months it slacked slightly about 14 months for about 2 weeks but was "worked" on with long lead 30' and a whistle included and recall is now 98.5% reliable from anything - dog, cattle, fleeing rabbits. - I would not say any dog would be 100% reliable because you just never know do you? regardless of what you have put into practice with training.
But I worked hard in socialising and training my bitch who is now 17 months old - especially recall. And the rewards are sweet.
Karen       

Some of the most highly trained dogs I know are Staffies; they compete successfully in Working Trials, Obedience and Agility; as you say, you only get out what you put in!

Ah yes, but Staffies they have a knack of proving that no matter how much you have "put in" sometimes they just don't give a fig :)
Karen

:-D

What tohme "omitted" to say was; "some of the least trained dogs are Staffies" :)
Karen

:D :D :D

<<<sometimes they just don't give a fig >>>

sometimes there is something more exciting than Mum :D :rolleyes:

no matter how much she screams :D

No Lel there is always something more interesting than Mom but now Mom has discovered a secret weapon "Mom turns around and walks away" and nothing is more scary than being left by Mom ;)
Karen

Unless its a huge stick just begging to be run around the field with :)

Hi,can a 'newby' join in ;-)? I had a Mini Schnauzer 'Bunny' who was trained to recall and many other things before she was one year old. Admittedly I spent every spare moment of my time on her. I trusted her 100% to always come when called whatever the distraction, likewise she would willingly 'sit and stay' till hell froze over. She was an amazingly intelligent little dog, as a kennelmaid earning £1 a week I could not afford the bus fare home for both of us on my day off, so I trained Bunny to lay down in my old cookery basket with a cover over her so I did not have to pay her fare (only a seven mile journey). She thought it was a great game. Bunny died aged 16, I have never had another dog quite like her from 'an easy to train' point of view.

That's fantastic. You really put the time into your dogs and it's paid off. I had a couple of GSD and one of them was particularily reliable quite early on...don't recall exactly at what age as it's been a while. And my Lab, well yes if I called her, but she had a way of sneaking off when I wasn't watching. She loved and still does visiting the neighbors and they absolutely love her to death. (darn good thing) She's a social butterfly....loves a party. LOL.

Carrie

Oh, I forgot to remark on Bunny in the basket. That's a pretty cool story! I know how hard that was to lose her....16 yrs. old....wow, that's old. I know too what you mean about never being able to replace a dog. But I find that they're all great in their own way.

Carrie

...Hi Carrie, I do agree each dog is indeed unique and irreplacable... But I can never understand the people who on losing a a dog say they will never have another! I know what you mean about your lab..the lady I worked with used to bring her 'Letty the Lab' to work and would somtimes ask that I watch her for a moment, I would out of the corner of my eye see her slinking off like a black shadow but mostly she just slinked back to the other office without my seeing although I WAS watching her!! She would have made a great magicians assistant :-0  Recall was not a word in Letty's vocabulary.

Hi Havoc, meet the inexperienced trainer who HAS successfully fixed a bad recall - me :D Im with my first dog, always loved em never had em in the house when growing up etc and so made LOADS of mistakes with Morse, but we are both still alive and have learned a lot. One of the reasons his recall was shocking was that he had no obvious motivators like food or toys when we got him aged 6 months and had been kept "sheltered" without much interaction with people or dogs, add well meaning but inexperienced owners and you can guess the rest! Hes 18 months now and we are getting to acceptable stage, which means 1 call, speedy return whatever is happening.Every time we go out I have a plan for some fun activities rather than letting him make his own fun the whole time, and now were doing the Kennel Club Good Citizen we have a standard to measure progress against. It has taken a while to learn how dogs think, how to motivate him and strategies for problems but its not a race just patient perseverance and a lot of encouragement from CD members.  As a mater of interest, do you feel your first dog took longer to learn than your subsequent dogs because you had more experience?

I was very glad when JackiH said that some dogs simply do not recall. Ours is a red setter x with something else and it has been the cause of some conflict between me and my other half about recall.
She is 2-3months now and we did all the socilaizing and puppy training, she was really good untill about 9 months and slowly started turning deaf ear when she felt like it. We changed training classes at about14/15 months but when she was just under 2 she ran out of the park and right accross the road for another dog.
Since then I will not let her off lead except in a huge country park when its quiet. We had a behiourist in but after three expensive sessions there was no change. My partner says I (who have done most of the training) am not doing it right and she should be allowed off, I wont let her off because its not safe most of the time BUT, and heres what I think.
I simply think that many dogs, more than we realize simply will never get a reliable recall once there is something attracting them, I mean if I offer a treat and she is a way off with something else then shes going for the nearest thing she likes.
She is not the only dog like that around us like that by any means but all the others let their dogs off and take a chance. I think there more dogs which simply cannot be recalled, no matter how many hours of training you put in or who trains them than people imagine. At least I can now say I am not the only one when I get scorned.

Lorelei, Thats brilliant. To be honest though, your not quite what I had in mind. You fixed a problem that someone else had caused, and I've seen that a few times. ;-). (Looks like I'm moving the goalposts now doesnt it?) You appear to have put in the required effort and determination right from the start of your relationship with the dog.  Mistakes are allowable, lack of effort isnt! :-)

I'm confident people CAN do it, but it doesn't happen very often so I was keen to get people to post some real examples of the effort required. Thanks for yours...

Quote : "As a mater of interest, do you feel your first dog took longer to learn than your subsequent dogs because you had more experience?"

I did my first bit of training when I was 16. This dog was actually pretty easy to train, although REAL control broke down a bit on shoot days as I hadnt put the required amount of work in. I only had relatively low expectations of him as I had nothing really to compare him to.

It does get easier the more you train. However by dog 4 i was starting to get cocky & was looking for shortcuts. In the lon-run this takes longer & I am convinced that she has never reached her full potential.

I think if you want to quickly learn about training dogs you should go and watch as many classes & people as possible. You can learn a bit from the good ones (but only a bit, as they are doing most of their REAL training on their own ;-)  )  However, I have learnt loads by watching really bad handlers trying to train! Its just as important to know how NOT to do it, and you can learn that for free!

Agree 100% tohme, majority of labradors (& most other breeds!) seem to receive minimal sensible recall training, including those that go to obedience classes! (Recall in a village hall is completely different to recall in a field under temptation!).

I suppose what concerns me is people thinking that they need not worry about recall problems as their dog is under 2. I really just dont see enough evidence of these problems EVER being fixed once the habit is ingrained (at least not by the original owner / trainer)

But havoc there are trainers who have been at it for years and can't get reliable recalls befor 2 and with some dogs not at all! (I am a pet owner)  surely that must say something??????

Perhaps your confusing experience with ability? ;-) I can think of a few people who have trained for a long time and do a bit of teaching. Their dogs are still pretty poor though! ;-)

Just being a bit controversial! I do know what you mean.

:D :D :D

"I am an experienced trainer"  "Experienced in what?"  (Failure)!

As I have often said, longevity and duration is not necessarily a reflection of competence!

No recall is probably the major cause of death in dog outside euthanasia for behaviour problems.

Any dog will recall across 20ft of a village hall with no other distractions!  People fail to train and proof in the "real world" and also are lulled into a false sense of security when they are puppies believing they are "trained" until their dogs hit the 8/9 month mark and all of a sudden see that they are not :(.  RElentless, consistent training is the ONLY way to ensure reliable recalls and that is why I generally say 2 years to give people a realistic timescale in that it can take this long before they can say "my dog is trained"; in general the vast majority of people think that this can be trained/cured in a couple of sessions.  It cannot.

I certainly see no reason why any gundog cannot be trained to recall as they were specifically designed to work with man!

tohme wrote : "RElentless, consistent training is the ONLY way to ensure reliable recalls "

Absolutely spot on. "Relentless" - I cant think of a more appropriate word!

Havoc,  Like you I would be disappointed if I couldn't get a reliable recall from my dogs but I am an experienced dog owner and I put a lot of thought, time and effort into teaching them.  Most of my dogs, I haven't had as 'baby puppies' and they all came with baggage.  I've been working really hard with the latest girlie and at 11 months old, over the last couple of weeks she's been brilliant with recall and I am confident that it will stay that way.  I've had her since she was 6 months old but she came from a very punishment-orientated background where she ended up chained outside all day because she was "untrainable".  All of my dogs are trained off lead and as John said on another post they don't even realise they are being trained.  It is all done through play. 

I speak to dog owners every working day, either new puppy owners or those looking for help for a problem.  If I had a pound for every time someone said "He is lovely/very good/well behaved/...BUT" then I'd have retired to sunnier climes long ago. 

All puppy clients get a free outside recall lesson.   We zigzag across the field and puppy follows off lead, then we call, reward (food/toy)and send away again (keeping the toy).  I explain how to maintain and make progress with this fantastic recall that we now have and then whilst I am talking to one of them, the other (usually the husband) will call the pup whilst it is running after my dog who is going after his ball that I have just thrown.  Where is that brick wall?  Then I explain it all again!!!  At the end of the session I recap so that is three times all told.  Something I learnt very early on in teaching.  Once they hear it.  Twice they listen.  Third time they remember.  However, in my experience I find that people expect far too much from their dogs and are very impatient when it comes to their training.  In one of my puppy classes a man is teaching his dog with commands in Dutch and it really brings it home to people, myself included, just what puppy hears when we are talking to him.  I don't think people should be not worrying about recall problems in a young dog but just making sure that they are successful in small steps with the recall.  The problems arise when they think that just because a dog knows what come means in the kitchen at dinner time they should also hear it and comply when they are playing with other dogs at the park.

I agree with you about village hall training and how useless it can be with regard to recall.  I stopped doing adult classes a while ago because I felt we were letting owners down when they thought that a class would solve all their problems.  All adult dog training is done one to one outside now and we have different groups for socialising and testing the training so yep I know loads of inexperienced trainers who've reliably fixed a bad recall.  Some of them are competing and winning prizes in Agility now.

Sally

Sally, I must admit I dont "do" waifs, strays and rejects. Life is just too short (lol)
I've plenty of admiration for those that do though!

:D :D Havoc if only you knew! Thanks for the nice comments about not being who you had in mind, but I have to take responsibility for Morses recall issues as his first owner didnt take him out at all. I read the advice on letting him off lead which I got from the rescue, followed it to the letter about practicing at home and in the garden then off we went. OUCH! Most of my training problems have been caused by rushing the stages and not proofing thoroughly, like your first dog, and not being sufficiently authorative because I felt so sorry for Manic Morse being dumped. But I learn, and am a tenacious little horror myself, so we are improving.

>I must admit I dont "do" waifs, strays and rejects. Life is just too short (lol)

We have had more or less equal numbers of planned, bought puppies and 'waifs, strays and rejects' over the years and I remember deciding a few years ago that I would only ever have 'brand new' and not someone else's mistakes in the future.  But because life is too short I changed my mind.  ;)  With the exception of Hovis, who is a complete basket case all of my rejects have done or will do very well in agility.  Haven't done quite so well with the ones bought as pups.  :(  It's probably because the rejects are mad, crazy and misunderstood and need some direction which we give them.  :D

Sally

Isn't the definition of a good agility dog, one who is too brainless and hyper to do anything useful for a living? ;-)

I'll go and look for somewhere to hide now!

Hmmmm.  Better not tell that to my husband.  Actually he says that flyball is full of failed Agility dogs ;) 

Sally,

That's interesting how you do all of your training off lead. I have done some of that too, but I'm afraid to call Lyric to come without being able to make him come. (He's about a week shy of 9 months) So, even if I have wonderful monzerella cheese bits or liver treats (instead of boring Cheerios) what if he doesn't come? On our off leash walks/runs when there are all kinds of things he wants to check out, especially with the other dogs (partners in crime) he isn't going to be reliable. He sticks pretty close though. So, I never say, "come." If I put on the long lead, he knows already he'll have to come so there isn't ever any balking with that. What is the best course of action on getting him really good? Like it's been said, when it's a specific training "session" he does great. Should I just keep making it become a habbit by using the long line or practice sessions where he will obey, and not risk calling him when there are big distractions as on our play time runs on the golf course or hiking trails unless I can make him come for sure?

My GSD was really Johnny on the spot on the recall....super. My Lab was very good too, in all her obedience, until recently. She is either getting deaf (13 yrs. old) or she's developing that old lady sense of entitlement attitude where she comes, but in her own sweet time. She waddles along, stopping to sniff on the way. LOL.

That recall is the biggest hurdle isn't it. Thank you in advance for your expertise.

Carrie

I'll try out some games today and hide behind something and see if that helps, and then give a treat if he comes and finds me, but I better not say the word, "come." Right? Sometimes he's just too interested in running with my niece's dog to care about hide and seek. There are just too many wonderful things to check out in the woods along side the golf course where we've been running. Pretty soon, the golf course will open and we can't run there. It's a great place for exercise and so pretty. We've used that all fall, winter and spring.

Carrie

Here is some (really hard to follow) advice for preventing poor recall in a dog.

1. Dont let your dog 'free run' with another dog until his recall is acceptable, particularly in areas where "distractions" are likely to occur.
2. If you must ignore 1., then make sure the 'other dog' has a very, very good recall.
3. If you must ignore 1 and 2 then wear some trainers & make sure you can run very fast! lol
4. Make EVERY time you let the dog off the lead be a training session.
5. 100% owner concentration when the dog is off the lead to stop the situations you CAN stop and try and prevent / avoid the ones you cant.
6. Avoid situations where you know you will lose control
7. If you are completely relaxed when your young dog is off the lead then your going to get in trouble sooner or later.
8. Make sure you only rarely put the dog on a lead after a recall
9. Do everything and anything you can to prevent your dog running off to greet another dog, whether you know them or not. (if only to avoid annoying me & my dogs! lol)
10. Dont let yourself think "he's only a pet, I dont want him to be THAT obedient." If you aim low you probably wont even achieve mediocre!

Told you they are hard to follow! (works though! ;-) )

"you are going to get into trouble sooner or later"

.......................especially if you meet me! :D :D

"Millie......time to go to the woods for some more training!" :-D

I think what peoples expectations are depends very much on what their wishes are. Personally I would expect a Labrador puppy of mine would be ready for a Gundog Working Test by 9 months old, recalling, retrieving to hand, steady to shot and everything else that goes with it BUT I would never put her in a position where I would stake her life on it! Puppies make mistakes.

I take a pet obedience puppy class and know from bitter experience that the bulk of puppies I see are not bomb proof on any aspect of training when they start, whatever the age they arrive. I would hope that with my aid the owner can get the recall going reasonably soon but it depends so much on how much they are prepared to put into it. A person with aspirations towards anything competitive will not take long, a person with no leanings in that direction will take a whole lot longer.

I would expect with my gundog class that most would progress rather faster but the fact remains that some dogs are very self willed and also some people do not possess the natural good timing needed to relate the praise or correction to the act.

Best wishes, John

9. Do everything and anything you can to prevent your dog running off to greet another dog, whether you know them or not. (if only to avoid annoying me & my dogs! lol)

Actually, socializing with other dogs is the only reason I let me dog off lead.  But then I take her to a common area where that's the norm for most people and their dogs.  The last thing I would want to do is prevent her from running off to greet another dog, but I always do watch the dogs themselves and I do not let her off lead if I do not trust them.  

Stacey

I guess I don't call my dogs if they're not going to come but they are all motivated by toys and some of them by food too so by keeping these things valuable they tend to stay with me.  As daft as it sounds I'm more inclined to tell them "off you go" which makes them keener to come back if I ask them to.  They are generally pretty good at ignoring other dogs if I want them to because they have lots of socialising with other dogs on our own land so they've been there, done that, got the T shirt if you know what I mean. :)  I have used a long line on occasions but not to make a dog come to me, only to prevent it from getting into trouble.  The decision to come to me has to be theirs. :) 
Sally

Well, today on our walk, I played hide and seek. I had to wait till Lyric (Dobe pup)  wasn't looking. And then I made weird noises and he came a runnin'. Then I had my monzerella cheese ready. He really is pretty good about sticking around and not running too far off. He does think it's his duty to keep an eye on me. LOL. So, I periodically enticed him to come and when he was definitely coming full speed right at me, I braced myself (just in case) and said, "come" then he automatically sits in front of me at which time he gets the cheese and praise. So, he does come most of the time. It's just that I know it's not 100% reliable if ever there is something more interesting to run toward.

So, if I do this a lot everyday, do you think it will get ingrained enough that eventually he'll be more reliable? Or is that not enough? My one GSD was just flat out more obedient to the recall, really reliable all by himself. I don't remember working with him that much on that. But it's been a long time since I had him. So was my Lab, 13 yrs. since she was a puppy and Jose, my Chi mix, well...that's another story (major prey drive for some reason) and the girl Chi is pretty much right next to me all the time. Sometimes I can't see her, think she's run off and I'm looking all around. Then I look down right behind my feet and she's like 6 inches behind me. LOL.

Thanks

Carrie

Oh, I just again read your post Sally and the last sentence caught my eye. "The decision to come has to be theirs." I don't get it. You mean if you need your dogs to come, but they haven't decided to come, then you're out of luck? I want my dogs to come because I make the decision for them to come. At the end of our walk, we get in the car to drive home. I tell them to come and get in the car and they do. But if I let them decide, they'd stay on the golf course or where ever we are a while longer probably. Or they might tell me that they'll come on the condition that I take them for an ice cream cone. LOL.

carrie

It's not practice that makes perfect, it's perfect practice that makes perfect.  So every time he gets it right he's learning to do it right.  I'd vary the treats too so that they don't become predictable and boring and I also toss treats to mine just for following me or paying attention and changing direction when I do.  I'll also ask them to do other things that they have learnt or are learning and enjoy doing, not just come here. :)
Sally

Edited to answer your next post.  When I am stood on the long line the decision to come to me is not that difficult for them to make. ;)

I agree 100% Sally. I aim to always get a command obeyed by making it easy for the dog to get right and avoid if at all possible the chance of the dog disobeying. The idea is that the dog gets so use to obeying that it never gets into the habit of ignoring my commands. Simple really ;)

Best wishes, John

John, That is exactly what I say to puppy owners at their first class.  "Make it easy for them to get it right and impossible for them to get it wrong"  Great minds....;)
Sally

Yes, I do that too...toss treats onto the ground every so often to keep the four dogs near by. And I agree. It's a bad idea to expect them to do it right when you have everything against you. And the more they succeed, the more they get it in their minds that it's cool to do it right. Right? Thanks for your answer. Of course, if you're at the end of a long line, their choice is easy. LOL. But I thought you had said that you do this stuff without a leash. What a kick! Thanks a bunch.

Carrie

>But I thought you had said that you do this stuff without a leash

I don't consider a long trailing line to be the same as on a lead.  It just gives me the edge if I need to withold a reward. ;)

Ah ha....now I see. Well, unfortunately, Lyric always obeys me on the long line right away, even when there's a lot of slack. So, I don't have a chance to really test him out with that on, or give a correction, but of course, with it off, I better be dang sure he'd coming. LOL. Plus, with that on, he won't run hard. So he doesn't get good exercise. Oh, the dilema.

Dare I suggest that if you didn't give a correction when he's on the line, but just stood on it and curtailed his freedom, he would be less inhibited with it on and therefore it would be more of a test. :) 

What I said was that I had NO chance to correct him or test him out because he always comes... Johnny on the spot when the long line is on him. He always does it right. IF he were to not come with it on, I could then pull him toward me, showing him that he should come and then reward. Do I have this right or does this make any sense? LOL.

And of course you dare suggest anything. All suggestions are very much appreciated and mulled over and tried out.

Carrie