If a liver FCR is mated to a liver FCR what colour will the pups be? all liver or liver & blacks.
this is a subject we've been discussing at work & can't agree and I'd like your views.

cheers.
edit to add ~ I know we don't know what will be produced, but what I mean is.......... is it possible for her to produce liver & black or will you only ever get liver when you do liver to liver.  :)

If the genetics is the same as in dals, then liver to liver can only produce liver.

I think as in Labradors, black is the dominant gene so black is always a possibility. Again, as in Labradors, liver to liver (Chocolate to chocolate) tends to give poor pigmentation so is not a desirable mating.

Regards, John

John, yes black is dominant & this was the argument we had at work (well discussion). Some people said as black is dominant, you could get blacks. Others have said a liver dog would have taken the liver gene from both parents & if then mated to a liver bitch, you have (L&L)  to (L&L) therefore only able to produce liver.

Interesting, thanks both. :)

Just had a look in Malcolm Willis's book and I think Liver to Liver will only produce Liver

Liver is bbEE or bbEe  As there are no "B"'s you will not get black.  "b" (brown) is the dilute of "B" (black).

thanks kerioak. :)

I got that wrong - Blue is the dilute of Black (in Dobes anyway) it looks like Labs are different.

In Labs (taken from Genetics of the Dog by  Dr Willis)

"Dogs carrying at least one B and one E will be black with black noses (BBEE, BbEE, BBEe, BbEe).  Yellows will occur when there are two e alleles present so that BBee or Bbee will be yellow with black noses.  A variation known as chocolate or liver appears and this is due to bb.  All chocolate dogs will be bbEE or bbEE and, because black is diluted by the bb combination, these dogs will always have a pale nose and lips.  Any dog which is bbee will be yellow but will have a pale nose and lips so that yellows carrying two chocolate genes can be identified in this case."

Yes, in dals too black is dominant to liver. There are two 'types' of black, which are visually identical. One is the 'pure' black (BB) and the other is the black carrying liver (Bb). My first liver bitch was mated to a black dog, and all 10 of her puppies were black spotted, so it seems certain he wasn't carrying liver. But of course all the pups were. My second liver bitch was mated to two different black dogs, and both litters were evenly mixed black and liver, so those dogs were both carrying liver. If you mate two blacks who both carry liver then the litter is likely to be mixed, probably in the proportion 3 blacks to 1 liver.

It's a subject that fascinates me!
:)

Here is my stab! Black is dominant and therefore cannot be 'masked' or carried by another colour. If a dog carries the gene for black then it must be black! Therefore if you mate two liver flatcoats then neither can be carrying a gene for black, so no blacks could born.

Mating two black flatcoats could produce liver, if both carry the liver gene.

Doesn't work like that in GSD's Black os a recessive carried by all colours except white ;)

The most recent top winning Black GSD bitch came from a sable bitch & a black & gold dog & the bitch produced black & gold & sable puppies as well as black. She did not produce whites so did not carry the white gene. No whites came from any of her puppies either

I know in Engliah springers black is dominant as well as in flatcoats

Oh you people are so knowledgable.  I have a liver and white springer who was put to a black and white springer and she had 4 B&W and 3 L&W.  How does that work if black is dominant?

My cocker is blue roan, a different colour from both her parents.  She has been put to a liver and white cocker who comes from a solid liver and black parentage.  Any guess as to the colour of pups we are likely to get?  I guess it will be a variety, just like the litter she came from, 5 pups all different colours!

I can't get my head round the bbEE BBEe stuff as hard as I try!

Have a look at this site, it may just make it a little clearer. Remembering of course that a puppy inherits two sets of genes, one from each parent. So to deturmine the colour of the puppies you first have to know the colour of the grand parents

http://users.tpg.com.au/choclab/cci/genechoc.htm

Best wishes, John

Clear as mud John!  Thanks.

you were too quick there, I was editing it as you were reading it! ;)

Thanks for the link John, very interesting. I've also seen a "colour chart" for dobes which Christine sent me, if anyone knows of a site I could look at FCR colours, I'd be very grateful, I have had a mooch on the internet but can't really find any specifics on FCR's.
I would imagine the Lab colours are very similar but having the 3 colours complicates it a bit. (doesn't take much to confuse me :-D)
(edit to add ~ I think I know the answer to my origional question now, but would like to learn more. :))

Hi Jacky,
In the example you give of your spaniel's litter and the resulting colours, it is clear that the black dog was carrying the liver gene from one of his forebears. His black pups inherited the dominant black gene, and the liver ones didn't. Your bitch carries only liver, so all her pups (blacks too) will be carrying the liver gene, just like their father.
:)

Jackyjat, Cocker colour genetics can get very confusing as there are sometimes so many permutations involved ;-) Looks like all your Cocker pups will be particolours as 2 particolours cannot produce solid puppies (although 2 solids can produce particolours if they both carry the spotting gene). If your blue roan carries the liver gene, then some of your pups will be liver roan or liver & white (but only if she carries the gene for "..and white") If she doesn't, then all the pups will likely be blue roan or black & white. Of course both parents might also carry the gene for orange/lemon so you might get this colour too ;-)

Thanks Jane.  Her mum was lemon and white (I think that's what you call it).  She's a working variety which is why colour isn't so important to me but I am just curious.  My 10yr old has just asked what I am doing and I said I was asking people who know these things what colour the pups might be.  He says I shouldn't ask as it's like knowing what Xmas presents you are getting before the day!

It's all very complicated and probably a bit beyond me, but interesting to know that we won't have solid colours.  She was the only one of her litter that was a partcolour, probably the reason we chose her!

The ee (red/yellow/white/cream) gene is thought to mask black which is why you can get black pups from lighter coloured matings.

Jesse

I have a white gsd stud dog and he carries black.

Quote:- Here is my stab! Black is dominant and therefore cannot be 'masked' or carried by another colour. If a dog carries the gene for black then it must be black! Therefore if you mate two liver flatcoats then neither can be carrying a gene for black, so no blacks could born.

Funny i have a pure Pepper & Salt male mini schnauzer who has had 34 litters to date & he produced a black bitch pup when he was 2 years old to a salt & pepper bitch the rest of the pups were S&P, he produced a black male in another litter when he was 4 years old to a black & silver bitch the other 2 pups were P&S & just this year at 7yo he has produced another black male pup!!!!!!! Explain that!

I kept the black male from the black & silver bitch & he is more of what i would call a 'dilute black'. He has bred & produces black, P&S, B&S.

My dog is bred from one of the top breeders in the UK & comes from a long line of S&P dogs & i seen both parents & the litter they were all P&S. My thoughts are that dogs can throw back many generations & as black is a dominant colour it can appear from time to time in litters where both parents are 'normal' colour gene.

In budgerigars all male birds can be split for sex linkages & can carry other colour genes & mating a normal light green male to normal light green female does not mean you will only get light green budgies, if the male bird is split for cinnamon, opaline or yellowface this will come out in a percentage of the young.
A female bird however can only be split for colour but she would usually be showing blue colouring in her if split to blue she cannot be split for sex linkages, thus females can only breed what they are themselves.

The confusion over dominant black is because there are two types of black.  Dominant as in the Labrador and FCR etc and recessive as in the GSD and others. 

One rule always applies and that is that two dogs of brown (liver) pigment cannot produce pups with black pigment but that doesn't mean that black can't be masked by another colour, it just can't be masked by brown.  Brown x yellow in Labs can produce black as the yellow can mask black and the brown carries E for extension of dark (black or brown) pigment.

Recessive black in the GSD is a pattern not a colour, the same rule applies.  Brown x Brown (it does occur in the breed, usually seen as brown & tan) can only produce brown pigment and if both parent happen to carry recessive black, solid browns may be produces but not blacks.  White BTW can mask any colour in  the GSD as it is the lowest recessive in this breed.  Sorry if this sounds confusing!  but colours can be carried/masked by dominants and recessives.

The original question on FCRs.  Liver x liver can't produce black but other rare alleles in the breed could show up.  Recessive yellow (ee) is common in gundog breeds and I believe there is a low incidence in the FCR so this is a possibility as it would be in any FCR litter.  There is a gene test for this colour now as there is for brown and a few others.

Julie

Hi Julie & welcome to the forum, thanks very much for the info ~ that's great & very helpful.  :)

Hi  Smudgely

I'm glad it made some sense!

Julie

Colour genetics is hard when something unexpected happens LOL!

I have a red Boxer bitch (whose sire was red - he had a red dam and a brindle sire, and the dam was brindle
-she had a brindle dam and a red sire) she was put to a Brindle dog who carried the red gene (his sire was brindle which was a red gene carrier - his dam a brindle with a red sire and a brindle dam - she also carried the red gene)

What would you expect??????????
A mixture of reds and brindles (plus whites as both parents were quite flashy)??????????????

What did I get.......................................
3 brindle and white
4 white some with brindle patches

But not a hint of red to be seen anywhere on those white pups!! LOL Sod's law isn't it when you'd like a red..:D
But really annoying every bitch he's studded that has been brindle he's produced red pups!! LOL.

:) Confused???? :D

Sorry, I should have made clear this refers to flat-coats & labradors. I dont know anything about colour genetics of other breeds!

I've certainly learned something there as i would have assumed that colour genetics would run true whatever the breed. Nice to pick up something new!

Hi Havoc

>>>I've certainly learned something there as i would have assumed that colour genetics would run true whatever the breed. Nice to pick up something new!>>>

Usually it does.  Eg. all the colour genes (except the rare white) present in the Dobermann occur in the Labrador and are inherited in exactly the same way. They just have a lower incidence.  Its oddities like recessive black and domino that occur only in a few breeds that tend to throw a spanner in the works.

Julie

The "white"  Dobermanns are really albinos and although they may genetically be black (brown, blue or fawn) due to the lack of melanin you don't see the colour.

The colours are inherited in exactly the same way as normal there is just the problem of albinism as well :(

Do you get Blue Labradors - I thought there were just Black, Yellow and Liver?

Hi Kerioak

White, albino, recessive yellow and others are all colours that can hide underlying colours and patterns.  Ladradors are probably all tanpoints underneath.

I have heard of blue (also tanpoint, lilac and brindle) in Labs but its very rare.  Its exactly the same as dilute in Dobermanns.  dd genotype reduces black pigment to blue and brown to lilac (isabella in dobes)

Julie

A good site for description of the rarer Labrador colours including mosaic - http://www.labbies.com/genetics2.htm#Sable  I think someone may have posted this already.  It does list the "blue" as being "silver" and does mention a blue nose colour.  Maybe it is dd dilute, maybe not.   I haven't seen a photo so couldn't say.

This site is though rather out of date with its colour gene listings.  Brindle has been found not to be an E series pattern and dominant black is unlikey to be A series.  These two patterns could possibly be at the same locus.

Julie

John

I've often heard this said that brown x brown reduces pigment.  Is this a breed peculiarity in the Lab or do other gundog breeds share this.  It can't apply to breeds such as Irish Water Spaniels and Weimaraners or  they'd just get paler and paler :-)

If you have any stats or other info on this, I'd be very interested.

Julie

This thread is just like one of those maths lessons where I try very hard to pretend I understand, but don't really!  The only conclusion I can draw is:

A) I will get whatever colour puppies I am given.
B) Remember not to breed dogs where colour is important until I understand fully!

i got black and liver fcr.

this is going to be a long story.

wispa is black, carring a liver gene,her first litter she was mated to a liver dog which she had 6 liver 4 black.

her second litter she went to a black dog,only black genes all puppies were black.

brie wispa daugther who liver only carries the liver gene, she was dna for colour,not carring black or yellow.so she went to her uncle whos liver only the result 9 liver puppies,

black is the doman gene,

liver dogs donot carry the black gene,
so two black will have black only
two liver will only have liver
black carring liver both side 3/4 black 1/4 liver.
black carring liver to a liver  1/2 black 1/2 liver.

if you go to genetica site it may be on there.

or bye joan manson book the code for the fcr is in there too.

terri

Have a look at this site Julie.

http://www.hartzer.com/coat-colors-prediction.shtml

It was the one I was looking for this morning but could not find. It shows very comprehensively what you will get from any particular combination of matings!! As you can see, the pigmentation problem is linked to the combination of genes of sire and dam and may be good or poor. I have never seen the same sort of site for Flatcoats but because of the interbreeding which went on in the early years I would doubt there is much difference.

I'm not a very technical person but I keep my eyes open and from years of dog watching I'm sure that with choc's mated to anything other than black which carried the choc gene, eventually you will loose the pigmentation. One of the reason I might appear to have a down on Chocolate Labradors on here is that with it's exponential rise in popularity the breeding in so many cases leaves so much to be desired. 

Best wishes, John

Hi John

Yes, the colour prediction chart on that site is very useful and FC colours would be identical to these.  It doesn't though account for the low incidence, non standard colours/patterns in Labs.  Remember you've got tanpoint, brindle, blue and lilac to jazz things up a bit :-)

This brown thing though is intriguing.  A Danish friend once told me that a vet lecturing at a Danish Kennel Club conference was of the opinion that brown was somehow linked to ill-health in dogs and advised against breeding browns together.  She was speaking mainly on merle breeding where the health problems in double merles are well known.   I've failed to find out any more on the browns but if anyone has opinions, it would be interesting to hear.

Julie

I couldnt agree more with you on chocolate labs John. Nothing wrong with the colour itself, but people do seem hell-bent on breeding just for the colour. I'm sure this has got nothing to do with the £100+ price difference for chocolates! ;-) . If they mate chocolate to black (carrying choc) this will probably halve the number of chocolates born the in the litter, and is probably the reason so many chocolate to chocolate matings occur.

From a working perspective, the chocolates could be massively and rapidly improved by mating to the top trial dogs. However, virtually none of these carry a chocolate gene. So the resulting litter would probably be all black. By mating these pups back to chocolate, or better still other blacks bred a similar way the working qualities would be much improved. I think the show breeders have followed this technique more.

Mind you, if i wanted to make money out of dogs & wasn't that bothered about improving the breed, then chocolate to chocolate would be my choice! Shame we dont still call them liver, i think people would make more of an informed choice then!

There is still no choc Field Trials Ch in the UK even though several people are now working Chocs. I have two working with me. I still maintain that they are a year behind Blacks and Yellows at maturing.
Was doing a walk up beside one in a test when Anna was a puppy and it ran in on Anna's retrieve. I had to call her back and it put her off for the whole test. She was sure that somehow she had done something wrong.

Actually there is exactly the same three colours in FC's Smudgley. Yellows are not in the same numbers as Labradors but they are still there. Of course, with all the interbreeding over the years it would be surprising if there was not. Of course, because yellows are acceptable in Labs people have bred for them for years and if that was the case in FC's I would expect there would be a lot more yellows there too. Certainly one of the best known Flatcoats carried the yellow gene and it is coming out in a number og his offspring.

Best wishes, John

John, so you can get a yellow FCR? I really had no idea that could happen, wow I'm learning so much on here today, I pressume that is undesirable? Have you ever seen one? I'd love to see one, any idea where I could see a picture of one?

I totally agree with you about choc labs, I work with labs & chocs are without a doubt, slower to mature & harder to train, although in my experience they are often fairly willing to please, they are very different to both yellows & blacks. (IMHO)

Oh yes, there are yellow Flatcoats and two litter mates regularly works in gundog working tests in this area. The KC will register them although they cannot be shown. There have been moves going on for years to get them accepted. I remember attending a society breed seminar around 10 years ago where the topic came up but the members present were unanimous about keeping the status quo. I think everyone was worried about a similar situation developing to the over breeding of choc labs, bred for money with no thought to health.

Best wishes, John

Thanks John. :)

Smudgley,

My aunt had a yellow Flatcoat about 10 years ago now, she was a lovely dog, but she did look pretty odd.  (Its just not a colour that you see very often!). When my aunt got her, the breeder said that she knew of other breeders who would have, how can I say this?, 'put it in a bucket at birth',- horrible thought, but apparently it did happen a long time ago.

Ali :)

Id love to see a pic of a yellow flat coat if anyone knows of a link to a website ?

claire :)

<<very tongue in cheek of course but>> isn't a yellow flatcoat the same as a golden retriever!!!??!! ;-) :-0

As I've said before on here although some of you newer members may not have seen it, the retriever breeds were not, until quite recently "Breeds" rather they were "Varieties" of Retrievers and as such, under certain circumstances, could be interbred. As some of you know I've done quite a bit of research into my Labrador Anna's pedigree and there, born in 1909 is a black Flatcoat, Filleigh Jet! I'm guessing now but I'd say the retrievers only became seperated into breeds as recently as around 1970 (I imagine one of you show people could put me right about the exact date :) ) With this in mind, very obviously the genome of all retrievers is very closely intertwined.

Best wishes, John

you can see some yellow fcr on the swedish site.

Hi John,

Just read your post about exactly when the Retreiver varieties were separated into breeds.  I have a much read and treasured book of my late father's, the "Pocket Book of Champion Dogs"  "giving details of over a hundred breeds" with a foreward by the chairman of the Kennel Club - Air Commodore J.A. Cecil-Wright.  The last date of notable champions given is 1959 and I believe the book was published in 1960 (he bought it because there was a picture of his corgi pup's father in it :D ) although it has lost its blue hard cover and the publishing info sheet (if it ever had one) through my reading it obsessively as a baby and when I was growing up ;)

The Curly-Coated Retreiver, Flat-Coated Retreiver, Golden Retreiver and Labrador Retreiver are all pictured (photographs) and described separately and other notable champions are given for each.  It seems to me that these breeds were being separated at this time from the way that they are each introduced and individually described, although curiously, when describing the Flat Coat Retreiver the other 'varieties' of Retreiver are mentioned!  From this it looks as though the Retreivers were being seen as seperate breeds at that time but perhaps it hadn't been made official by the Kennel Club?

Don't know if this helps or adds to the confusion :( ;)

Regards
Dill 

Sorry Dill, thats a slightly different matter. The "breeds" were seperate and named ever since their inception. Labradors were accepted by the KC in 1903 although I have traced Anna's pedigree back to 1875. For some reason though, the KC listed them a varieties of Retrievers rather than breeds. Hence the full names, Labrador Retriever, Golden Retriever, Flatcoated Retriever etc. I can remember the reports in the dog press at the time when it all changed. Although I've been around dogs almost all my life it was only around 1960 when I got involved with pedigree dogs and the change came after that time.

Best wishes, John

So basically no help at all then? :)  sorry :(

Claire,

Try this
http://www.sabernet.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/flatcoat/yellows.html

I'm not very good at pasting things, so i hope it works

Ali :)

Hi John

Just picked up on this thread, which is dear to my heart.   As you know, we've done a liver/liver mating - not for the colour, but because the dog that was the only one we wanted to use on our working bitch was liver, and so was she.

Gordon was the result of this mating, and neither he nor any of his siblings has loss of pigmentation in any way.   We seem to have hit on a very dark liver gene now - maybe bb has a kind of sable allelle on the locus, as our baby has almost black (very dark liver) hairs in the liver colour, which is most attractive, and not at all like the wishy-washy-livers that used to be produced.

Edited to say that in the flatcoat Midlands region w/test the other day, the Intermediate winner was liver, the puppy winner was liver, and our baby Beech was third.    Think there may be something in my idea that many good workers are liver in flatcoats (possibly the opposite in labs) says she ducking........

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats