Hi,
   I realise from looking through this and other lists that these collars are a very emotive issue. I have not really come on here to get in to an arguement about them as I really am at the end of my tether and if I do not sort this out then I will have to part company with my dog.

I have a 17 month old Collie x Greyhound that just see's something interesting and off she bolts and when she does she goes totally deaf to any commands or hastily squeaked toys.

I have been to numerous dog training classes and spoken with several obedience trainers re this matter.

One of them has suggested that I should try an electric collar.  However, she did say that I should be careful what I bought and how I used it as if they are used incorrectly they would cause problems.

Can anyone who has some real first hand experience of these collars provide me with some advice on how they work, how to use one correctly and also which is the best one to buy?

Your help is appreciated.

    Yours in desperation

                           Sue

You could use the search facility here on the Forum, this will show you some of the other discussions on the subject :)

Do not think this would help with your problem, to give a shock to a dog that was running away may well make it run further and faster. There are some dogs that can't or wont learn the re-call and those are kept on a lead unless they are in a fenced area. There are a few hounds whos instinct to chase causes them to be unable to hear their handlers call and there is nothing you can do about it.

Sue, are you related to Ian and Joanne?

Hi Sue,
I know a specialist trainer, you are right to be selective in which collar you get as there are about 100 types and models around.
The worlds most respected e- training collar has recently been introduced to UK and the person I know is their principle UK trainer. He was also the specialist UK trainer in canine psycholgy, training methods and use and application of e-training collars on the DEFRA consultion on electronic training aids in Aug 02.
I do not think I can mention the collars make here but if you contact me I will give you the web site of the UK e-collar distributer, I got one from the USA last year and they have only just started in earnest here this year with growing popularity.

Sorry Sue
My email is,
slazcoat@popmail.com

& Dennis?

What is it, scared that the Government are going to do something sensible for once and ban them?

Not many dogs could be considered fully trained at under 2 years old.  Certainly my youngsters aren't and I'm a dog trainer.  Training and proofing a recall takes a long time and if you are giving commands when she is bolting in the other direction then it will take even longer.  If you are after a quick fix and you consider it worth the risk of totally screwing up your dog for life then go for the e collar.  If not you may have to take Jackie's advice and find an enclosed area to let your dog of lead whilst continuing with the recall training. 
Sally

I'm afraid I cannot accept an E-collar for standard training. They do have a use in certain circumstances but not in this case. As to "The world's most respeceded e-collar" I think that is assuming that ANY e-collar is respectable and for use as a Standard Training Aid I don't think so.

<<person I know is their principle UK trainer>>

I also wonder if this person is the same person who used to post on here. I know on another board on which he has been banned several times he claimed he was?

John

I'll tell you what I do with my 8-1/2 month old Dobe. I don't know if it's such a great idea, but.....(would like input from a real trainer if you read this) I have a dilemma. My dog needs to run and I mean rip roar run if I want him to be at all civilized the rest of the day. I have places to go that are very safe to let him off leash as I live in an extremely low populated area and we've been using the golf course while it's not in use and soon we will use wilderness hiking trails, beach etc. I'm not worried about cars where we go.

My Dobe sticks around pretty darn well but occasionally if my niece's dog is with us and if he runs into the woods, Lyric will go too. I NEVER EVER say, "come"  or "let's go" unless he is on a long line or if I am absolutely 100% positive he is coming to me anyhow, like when he's obviously coming and two feet away from me.

If I want to try and get him to come, I might entice him with a funny noise or start running the other way and squat down with my arms outstretched or hold a "cookie" out. But I will NOT say, "come" if I can't make him come. My question is: have I already ruined him to the recall? There are times during our walk or at another time where we practice with the long line and regular leash. We practice come, let's go, (which just means to come along somewhere in my near vicinity) heel and stay etc. He's only 8 1/2 months so I figure there's time to improve him. But I am a little worried because he knows what it's like to run like the wind. But I feel like he just has to. By the way, he almost always comes running back to me if I make fun, silly noises or pay lots of attention to the other dogs who do stick around. He tends to not be a dog who wants to be too far away from his mistress. In fact his herding instincts are fairly strong. If we're spread out, he'll run back and forth and make sure we're all coming. LOL. But at the same time, Dobermans do have a high prey drive. Thanks for any input.

Carrie

<<have I already ruined him to the recall?>>

Most certainly not! You are working along the right lines. As with any command, if you have reason to believe it will be ignored you are far better (if at all possible) to not give the command. At 8.5 months old you have all the time in the world, he's still very much a baby even if he is a big boy now! The fact that he enjoys a good run is only natural and with the warmer summer days coming you will find that he will naturally cut some of the running down anyway.
Take a toy with you and play with him. Try to make the area around you the place where the fun is. That way you are encouraging him to stay in the area of you.

Best wishes, John

John,

Thank you so much for your prompt reply. You made me go, "whew!" I'll tell you the problem. He's not too into toys or balls, no retrieving instincts what so ever. That's another thing we need to work on more, not the instinct, just the retrieving. LOL.

When my nieces dog, a ridgeback/whippet ???? mix is with us, which is almost every time, HE is the toy. And he has OCD about the tennis ball. No joke. So, where ever he runs after the ball, (and he's the fastest thing I ever saw on four legs and I had Arabian horses!) Lyric chases. LOL. But every once in a while, OCD or not, a squirrel or something will replace the ball and he'll take off through the woods. I don't like it. There is a lot of wild life around here, bears, cougars, moose. So far, Lyric hasn't followed him in very far...usually turns and comes back but as he gets braver, he might go too far.

Well, I guess he's getting tired of Honey Nut Cheerios so I'll maybe take a tastier treat next time. (he is quite food motivated, but sometimes not if he's in high prey drive action.)

So, in other words, do you think that if I practice with the long line and treats etc at other times, that even with that freedom he has on our runs when not on a line, he'll still become quite reliably obedient to the recall after as he ages?
He is TERRIBLY intelligent...quickest dog I ever had and I've had lots. And he enjoys working when it's a specified "lesson." LOL. He still has puppy brat behavior.

Thanks a million!

Carrie

We have a saying in gundog circles Carrie, "When the lead comes off it never goes back on again!"

Not strictly true of course but the theory is, the more the lead is off the more it becomes the norm, not something special to be prolonged as for as long as possible. As it happens, we do not get many Bears, Cougars and Mooses around here so your problems are a bit different to mine which are made up more of such animals as sheep and cattle which my dogs must work around. Obviously you need control but if the control is at the expence of freedom then you can understand him not being keen to come back when he does get freedom. The answer, rather than leads or long lines is to try to find a secure area for the times when you think the control might be less than perfect. As he gets older you will find you are gaining control.

If he is not toy orientated, yes, food can help, but also games playing can help. Hide and seek is a good one because it encourages him to keep an eye on you. That way you are training whilst playing :)

Best wishes, John

I like that idea. It makes sense...the hide and seek. Yes, I can imagine running behind a big pine or fir tree and screeching a funny sound. He'd come running I bet. I'll try that tomorrow.

And also, I think you've got something there. Since he gets to run every single day like that, it shouldn't be that novel. Plus, I have 5 acres which he can play around in, although is not allowed to go out of the yard area and into the pasture unless I'm with him. He's pretty good about that.

I appreciate your ideas and your responsiveness. Thank you.

Carrie

Hi Carrie,

I have a Cairn - and they certainly have high prey drives, so much so that the Breed Clubs in the UK and the USA advise never to let them off lead.

I practice the recall with my Cairn a couple of times a day, always when she is somewhat distracted, but I'm still sure she will come back, which she does at full speed.  I always carry a treat with me as a reward.  

When I do have her off lead and I want her back on the lead I try not to use the recall.  If she is near me I just attach her lead without making a fuss.  She loves other dogs - and most of them like the treats - so this is usually when there is a small crowd of canine snackers at my feet waiting for a handout. 

Whenever it's possible, I also try and put her on the lead and then let her off again.  I might recall her, put her on the lead, walk around for a minute, and then let her off lead again.   I do not want her to associate the recall with an end to fun or an end to being off lead.

Stacey

Stacey,

Thank you. My goodness. I didn't know that about Cairns. That's very interesting. Yes, I have read about that what you described about putting the leash on and then taking it off and it is something I have done, but forgotten to do lately and not exactly calling to come and putting it on. I'll have to snap back into that mode. Thanks for reminding me. I must be running out of brain space for all the stuff I have going on in there. That's the same idea I do with taking something away from Lyric. I often will take his rawhide or whatever away, but give it right back and then take it away again a little later, replacing it with something else....not every time but lots of times...same with his food dish...did that a few times.

Thank you so much for your help.

Carrie

Hope you don't mind me saying Carrie but if a dog is going to be inclined to 'guard his food', taking it away is the best way to ensure that he does.
Sally

Oh Sally, no.....I've always done that with all my dogs for years and years when they're pups. They get use to me sticking my hands in their food, sometimes dropping in a very special morsel and moving their bowl over a few feet or picking it up and then putting it right back down. I do that a two or three times a week. That is how they know that it's ok if someone is touching their food....because they always get it right back and they often get a juicy piece of steak or a piece of cheese put in which makes it even better. That is how it is reiterated that I am the one who supplies their food and everything else good, and they aren't the ones who are in charge of it. I am. Sometimes I sit on the floor and pat them a little while they eat. I've always had dogs that were perfectly OK when I had small kids around their food and everything else...have never in my 45 years of having dogs (continually) had one aggression problem. Not once. I think it's the dogs who never get habituated to that who may be more prone to worrying about their food because they don't know what's going to happen with it. I understand that it is their instinct (in the wild) to guard their food. But it can and should be counteracted IMO. My dogs are living proof.

My sister had a problem with a dog growling at a small child while getting close to the food bowl. She always told the kids, "don't go near the dog while she's eating" because that is what they use to tell everyone. So the dog always ate all by itself with no one around. That's ok if you are sure no one is going to go close to the dog. But I like to condition my animals to all kinds of things, including my horses. They've always turned out so trustworthy around everyone and I've had a variety of breeds as well as mixes. Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. I just don't agree on that one.

Carrie

"They get use to me sticking my hands in their food, sometimes dropping in a very special morsel"

Aaah, but you didn't say that the first time.

Hi Scuddzy,
Yes I used an e-collar last year and it changed our lives a million fold for the better overnight, I don't know if my relationship was as bad as yours, I suppose each hell is only a personal hell or heaven.
What I would say about them is that there is no stress and forget al about these words such as pain etc that seem to fly around, thats not the case at all.
The other person is right you need get the right collar, I got mine from America and these are the best for all round training, surely we can mention the make, people mention gentle leader and things, I use a Dogtra but if they are in UK it must recent they were not here last year.
As far as training goes I think it depends on you and your dog.

Its not the e-training collar thats difficult, about the same as a tug on a lead but never ending, very easy to use but it is allways good to get some profesional help to have a look at your own personal problem no matter what training aid use, whether it is an e-training collar,treats, long line and even playing as a reward,as far as e-training collars gos they are the easiest thing to use and your dog is free and you are relaxed and stress free forever, my dogs excercise and quality of life has multiplied a thousand fold and he is so much better for it.

My advice is don't wait just go for it,I will email Dogta in the US and see if someone here is now the UK distributer, Dogtra are one of the top two but the other is more concentrated on long range huntings that a genearal pet like mine.
If you can email me for more info and if I know the answer I'll offer it.
Good luck and go for it.
big81john@fogdam.com

I believe how we train (condition?) a dog to give up articles is very important and not something to be left to chance. There cannot be many dogs who at some time during their lives will not pick up something which could, if not taken away from them quickly, cause injury or even death. Again, having working gundogs it is imperative that they bring me whatever they retrieve and to tease them would really negate any retrieve training!

If you think about it, taking food away from a puppy starts in a lot of cases way before we even get the puppy. The first example of loosing food happens when a litter brother or sister tries to help themselves to your puppy's share of the food! Is it any surprise then that if you put your hand near your puppy's food whilst eating that he growls?

I must make the point before I start talking about training that you must NEVER EVER tease a dog about food. Everything is aimed at convincing the puppy that you are no threat to his food. I start by just not releasing the bowl until the puppy has started eating. I also do a little ear ruffling and head stroking whilst the puppy is eating. Everything aimed at getting the puppy use to hands being around.
As all this is starting to be taken in it's stride by the puppy I will up it slightly by keeping hold of the bowl until the puppy has started eating then move the bowl, only an inch or too, just enough for it to register with the puppy. Never be in too much of a rush to move from one level of training to another, you have no rush. The next stage is instead of moving the bowl sideways, lift it, just an inch or two. Later still getting to the stage of lifting it high enough to add food too it (Making sure the puppy sees you adding to it.)

Totally unconnected with food at this time, I also get my puppy used to having it's mouth opened. It becomes part of my regular "Inspection" of the puppy. Eyes, ears, mouth and claws. Totally unconnected maybe but you can all see exactly where I'm going now. If I have succeeded in all this training I would be quite happy that if needed I could take anything away from my dog WITHOUT him feeling that I am a threat to his well being.

Best wishes, John

I have Weimaraners from strong working lines which have an extremely high "prey drive" as they were bred to hunt game, track it and bring it down/retrieve it etc etc.    They also have a very wide range; they are not like some pastoral or working breeds which like to keep you in sight, but are much more independent.  As I also compete with my dogs it is vitally important that they have a solid, sound recall under all circumstances from as far away as 1/2 mile or more and so a great deal of training goes into this, none of which involves the use of aversives or pain!

IMHO I would not consider any dog under the age of two to have a totally reliable recall; recall training takes a lot of time and proofing and not all training can be done in totally controlled circumstances, you never know when a bunny or a deer will pop out from under your dog and potentially be the cause of your dog's death if it chases it!

Personally I have never used long lines on my dogs, I have never needed to, but I think they are an excellent idea for the majority of pet owners.  Consistent daily training is the key, there are no shortcuts; if you cannot or will not put in the training required then perhaps it is would be better to reconsider your options with this dog.

Electric collars et al are a poor substitute for a relationship with your dog!

I would put 100% more time and training into your dog before you think he is a lost cause,personally i would never want to send electric shocks thru my dog,just another easy way out of the hard work of TRAINING!
I dont understand why someone would want to inflict pain onto a dog they supposedly love
Maybe your dog would be better off being rehomed with someone who has the time and the patience to train him??

christine

I see all your mates are here now Dennis. Or are they all you?

Hi John

Did you see that there are still moves afoot to ban e-collars, wonder if that is why they have resurfaced? 

<<<Or are they all you? >>>

:) :)

If they are such good training aids how come we dont use them on anti social losers who dont know how to behave - after all it would be for their own good ;)