Hi

Luna must have been having the time of her life yesterday.

Luna has the hall, kitchen and bathroom to be in, when I'm not home. And the door to my livingroom is now standing ajar with a gate (you know, normally to keep children out) blocking the intrance for the dog, but so the cat can go into the livingroom and lie in the sun.

It has worked fine last week and most of this week until yesterday. Somehow Luna has managed to get into the livingroom without pushing the door open! How I don't know. I tried luring her with treats - after all she is a labrador!
But no go!

I didn't tell her of, because she had been picked up by my friend (she didn't see anything either) at around 13.30 and I went over there straight from work, so was first home at 21.15, so it was way to late to be mad.

She has chewed:
A borrowed dvd movie
a remote control for my tv
candles
cat's toys
2 sodawaterbottles
and I could go on and on and on.

I think it's her season and adolescence playing in. She just turned 1 year april 5. and started her first season april 7.
Can anyone assure me, that I'm correct in thinking this?

She has loads of hidebones to chew and cartboard boxes.

Jeanette

my boxer Bradley escaped out of his crate and chewed,  tv, video remote, two phones, my sofa, door, videos dvds, bedding, bed, toiletries, lunch boxes, pillows, carpet, 2 rugs, cabinet, pens, toys the list is endless. When I came home I sat in the middle of the distruction on the floor (he'd demolished my sofa so I had no where to sit) and cried.

How long are these dogs left? escaped from his crate How long is he left in it?

Mattie,  he could get out of his crate within 5 minutes,  I used to use suitcase straps to hold him in and he still used to get out. He was left for about 1.5 hours.  Then eventually I gave in and he had the run of the hallway which is quite large.

Emma did you not say he was left in his crate for longer periods than that?maybe i've got the wrong person but i thought that's why you had to rehome him...sorry if i've got the wrong end of the stick...

Emma I thought the same as Candie that you had said you left Bradley longer than that.  Sorry if Im wrong too. :-(

Sorry didn't make myself clear.  He was in his crate for 1.5hrs when he made his first escape.  Yes you are right in the end he was left in his crate for longer. (guilty as charged).  When I used to pop out to to the shops he would have the freedom to roam the hallway and chew all the letters. Eventually i had to use a padlock.  But  you are right that was why he was rehomed.
Ive had some piccies sent from his new mummy apparently he looks fantastic

Glazby gets the run of the house and is normally really well behaved.  Apart from the first week we had him and he scratched the front door he hasn't actually destroyed anything (and he's left for up to 4hrs at a time).  He does ocassionally have a rummage through the kitchen bin though and I've arrived home a few lunchtimes to find the contents of the kitchen bin scattered throughout the house with Glazby sitting in the middle of the mess all happy and content at the mess he's created.  We've got in the habit of putting the kitchen bin outside during the day now!!

Just to answer the original post before all the recriminations start flying aound about how long dogs are left for! (LOL).
It could well be hormones at work. I have a 7 year old lab bitch who is normally faultless in the house, but round about 9 weeks after her season she will trash the kitchen bin, try and steal food and chew my daughters toys (makes me real popular!) This only lasts a couple of days. The rest of my dogs live in kennels, so she joins them for a while!

However Labs are buggers for destroying things, and I have found that some young labs have a 'relapse' round about a year old, after seemingly having grown out of it! At that age they are capable of serious damage! Punishment just doesnt work (other than make them look really sorry when you come home! LOL) and I believe actually often prolongs the issue.

My advice with a labrador (pets as well as working) is to have an outdoor kennel and run. They need to be used to being in there at times when you are home as well as out. Being in the kennel shouldnt be a punishment but a place where the dog can relax. She'll still probably chew the kennel, but at least your minimising the damage to your home and reduce your stress levels. This doesnt mean I am against Labs 'living in', its just that it give you more options and allows you to enjoy the dog more.

What sort of kennel and run would you recommend.  Our male lab is nearly 9 months and we had hope to have an outside kennel for him, he's not left very long period at the most total of say 3 hours but it would be nicer for him to sniff fresh air rather than be in doors with fresh air through a window.  Would be interested to know. Thanks in advance.

For a single Lab I would recommend a wooden kennel approx 4ft X 4ft (minimum) with a run of at least 6ft X 4ft. I would get a fully galvanised run (rather than wooden ones with wire mesh)

I wouldn't particularly recommend a manufacturer as none of the ones I have are perfect. However, if you type something like 'kennel run' into Google you'll get loads of info. (Just typing 'kennel' brings up thousands of boarding kennels!) Prices are variable and its worth seeing them in person to guage the quality and 'robustness'.

To house a number of dogs together I would recommend buying a good quality shed (say 8X5) instead and attatching a galvanised run (these panels can be bought separately)

The more you can protect any exposed timber, the less chewing you'll get.  Excessive size is not required, sociable dogs like gundogs love curling up in a heap together!

A vast run is not of much use, as a relaxed adult will spend the majority of its time asleep. Having a cover over the run has pros and cons. In foul weather a 'roof' stops the dog getting soaking, but they really like to laze in the sun in warm weather. (You take your choice!) Mine are open and i am glad in the summer and regret it in the winter! I take the view that the dog can always go in if it wants!

The important thing is that to start with you dont only use the kennel when you go out. This could easily cause barking / howling. Get the dog used to being left for shorts periods while you are there, with his chews & a warm bed. You need to get the kennel into just being part of his daily routine, a place where he is happy and relaxed. A 9 month puppy will take a little while to get used to the new routine, but will definitely take to it if you are patient.

I find that when a dog comes out of its kennel it is really ready for a spot of training. The delight of being with you is ample reward. Food treats not required! I like my dogs to be quite 'revved-up' for training (doesn't suit everyone though!). Also after you have had a training session I would recommend putting the dog in the kennel for a while. This really seem to help the lesson sink in (as long as the dog is quite relaxed about his kennel - he must not view it as punishment!)

Some people just don't like / approve of kennels but Labs will be fine in them. If you have a destructive dog both his and your life can improve immeasurably! Other breeds just dont like kennels, and separation can be a real problem!

After mixing kennels and indoors i cannot now imagine not using a kennel. I would almost go as far to say as I wouldnt buy a labrador if I didnt have access to one for some of time.

Excellent info, thanks very muchley.   Will be looking into getting things set up soon, especially with the weather getting better, easing him into the change, and whilst he normally will be out in the garden anyway just put him in his run/kennel for a little at a time.  Also want to add to the family with another lab in the future, well once present monster is mature say two years.  Once again thanks. Although I know I'm bound to say so, he's such a star on the whole, od course not always an angel.  I actually crate him so chewing is not a problem, well it is if I'm not observing.  May you can help with something else - having problems with actually having him bring anything straight back to me - sometimes he get other times he want to just hang on to it and will get over excited (I think thats what it is) and he start pulling up grass, etc, (wondered why he does thing any ideas?)

I'd say that a kennel & run will be much better than a crate!

Pulling grass. - i would guess he does it because he enjoys it! You may be able to get him to stop when you are there, but I doubt it when your not!

With regard to retrieving, I'll post an answer to the other similar question that has just been posted on this forum. Might not give you what you are looking for though!

Glad your enjoying him!

For a lab i would reccomend lots off excersice lots of companionship/training and not a cage its a disgrace to cage a labrador they are fit active dogs they need stimulation if you cant give that then dont have one if you want a caged animal get a budgie or a parrot !
im fed up of reading he is in crate or in cage why bother having a dog to cage him its not right.
I understand the need for a cage in a car or for a pup when you need to keep him safe but not after that its not right

I don't think that is a very helpful comment :( We used a cage with our Aussie pup - also a very active dog - it got us through a very difficult period when she would chew things, even if I left her for 5 minutes to go to the loo. She had lots of walks, training and games - my two older children were home with her as well. Even using the cage at night and if no-one was home for short periods, she managed to chew skirting boards, door frames, floor etc AND she had my older dog for company. This continued until she came into season at 12 months - then the chewing stopped completely.

Cages are a very useful thing IF used responsibly. No-one can give a dog 24 hour supervision, 7 days a week.

Daisy

You have every right to your opinion Mattie but I think your statement is very 'I do it my way ...its the right way'. A crate is used for the safety of the dog as well as the house when the owner is unable to supervise. I crate my puppies at night or for SHORT periods during the day ..I do not cage my animals like a budgie.My dogs are fit and healthy and are trained and exercised daily. I use my crate until my pups can be trusted.
You make it sound as if we get a dog and put it in a crate ALL the time...you know thats not true so why not accept that people have different ways of doing things...thats the way of the world ...and maybe more than one way can be RIGHT
No one is saying it is right to crate a dog all the time only when unsupervised and if someone is not willing or able to supervise a pup for most of the day then maybe they shouldn't have a pup but to use a crate in itself is not a bad thing
Archer

hear hear...

Ditto. Crate = Den to a pup....security, cozy, not a place to toilet....as long as it's not in there for too long of a period and the dog gets exercise and regular household privileges, attention, companionship etc... while you're home. Left loose in a house as a pup, they get into all kinds of things and when they do, that's self rewarding....it perpetuates that behavior and they have a hard time learning how to be civilized. They should be supervised or put someplace where they cannot cause damage or injury to themselves. IE: CRATE.

Carrie

I have thought of a crate, but Luna is now a year old, and I haven't used a crate before. I guess I would have to teach her to be in one...

How long would you max crate them for? I mean in one stretch.

Jeanette

Hi
I use a crate.I make sure my dog has had a walk and some 'mental' exercise first and then put him in his crate.4 hours is not a problem.
I 

Hi
I use a crate.I make sure my dog has had a walk and some 'mental' exercise first and then put him in his crate.4 hours is not a problem.
I  have a friend at work whos daughter has a 1 year old husky.He was destructive and they were at the end of their tether.I lent them my crate and he took to it straight away...he now uses it as his bed and is safe when they go out.
A crate is a very useful thing and as long as not abused it is not unkind....as far as I'm concerned I would rather crate my dog and come home to have a happy game with him than let him do damage to himself and the house and come home and be angry and have to clean up.
Archer

I think we should bear in mind where Mattie is coming from. In her rescue she has seen many results of dogs being crated. Dogs spending so long in a crate that they are "Stir Crazy". I know many people use crates, I used one with Anna but there are uses and there are abuses. We have all seen the posts on here, one only this week.

"As I work I need to put my dog in a cage for 3 hours in the morning, half an hour out to spend a penny then back in for 4 hours in the afternoon. Will he be all right?"

What they don't say is that the dog will also have to go back in while they go shopping for another hour then occasionally for 2 or 3 hours in the evening whilst visiting friends. Then to top it off, all night whilst they are in bed! Later, because the puppy gets so excited at freedom from the crate the person will start putting the puppy back in the crate "For just a few minutes to get a little peace and quiet." Do you accept that this is OK? No of course you don't!

The other side of the coin is, a friend has just brought a Labrador puppy. She has a crate in the kitchen with an ever open door. She does not work so is always there with the puppy. The puppy has learned that his crate is his little private den where he can retire to when he's tired. If she needs to go out, shopping for an hour or so a couple of times a week or when they go to bed the door is closed and puppy quite happily sleeps till they return. A totally different scenario. On I'm quite sure you can all agree to.

Crates can be a wonderful aid or a prison! It is all in the way they are used. Sometimes I am afraid we have to say, "Sorry Guest, (or poster) your lifestyle makes it impossible for you to do justice to owning a dog however much you might want one."

This is not a post directed at any one person, just a general comment.

Best wishes, John

Couldn't agree more John but to condemn the use of them because its like 'putting a budgie in a cage' is unreasonable.
Having a dog/puppy when you are going to leave it ANYWHERE for an unreasonable amount of time is wrong....its not the crate ,its the way its used that is either good or bad.
Archer  

Hi archer I think Ive made it plain that we on here are responsible dog owners Im trying to reach the non responsible ones I did say they have a use but shouldnt be a natural assesory
sorry dont want to offend anyone really i dont just see some bad results form caging

Hi Mattie
I appreciate what you are saying...it just came across as saying ALL crating is bad.I would never dream of keeping on of my boys in  a kennel outside but I appreciate that thats the way some people do it and its not cruel.Thats the beauty of  this board..we can all have our say and hopefully someone will take some good advice away from it and make good use of it.
No hard feelings on this side!!
Archer

None from me either

everyone thinks im anti crate./cage whatever but here we go.
A few years ago I rescued a dog who had been in a house with her dead owner for five weeks the owner being 49 years old the dog survived by drinking from the toilet also eating whatever food she could find out of wates bin etc..
Now then this is what I was told yesterday but Im not sure if its absoloutly true but an old lady had a dog in a cage under the stiar in the stair cupbard where the dog was kept, the ols lady died and it wasnt till the house was cleared some weeks later that the dog was found obviously dead my argument is if the dog was free in the house she may have a) drawn attention to the owners plight b) kept aliveby eating and drinking.
We had arescue dog here aged 12 his owner collapsed on the floor he knew he couldnt be found till morning so encouraged his dog to fetch the duvet off the bed the dog then lay with him all night keeping him warm till help came, (he couldnt have done that if he was in a cage) the owner then was found but sadly went in a home so poor bobby came here for rehoming.
Its sad to hear about dogs being kicked to death in burglaries etc But i would put money on my Ned to defend me to the death if anyone attacked me so Ill take my chance  and let him run free on my property  not be caged

Mattie and John, I would like to defend my corner.  Bradley had a crate because of his denning instinct was getting out of hand hidding under small tables to go to sleep.  Sneeking behind the sofa and wall.  We asked the breeder what to do,  he said get him a crate,  which Bradley loved,  I mean really loved.  When he was young he was left in there for maximum of 1.5hrs.
Now, you all know my circumstances changed and Mr B was being left longer in his crate.  I identified this as a problem,  if he was left to roam he distroyed my house I had very little left after my ex cleared me out,  then Bradley eating the rest dispite long walks training brain work etc.  But I gave him the best thing a new mum who loves adores and walks him 50miles plus a week.  Now call me cruel and irresponsible for identifying the problem. I rehomed  my only freind who was the biggest part of my life,  he had the best of everything, he was my world. The pain to part with him is and was unbearable.
So please do not tar every owner who uses a crate as cruel,  I had no control over my circumstances and dealt with it in a responsible manner. I know at one point he was left to long in his crate, so he spent every other week in kennels (down the road from where I work so I was able to see him at lunch and in the evening).

With respect
Emma

Having looked at this post after enjoying a lovely weekend, just wanted to say, - everyone is entitled to their opinion but sometimes when you don't know the ins and outs and the type of dog lovely person they are, its not constructive criticism, its just made me realise that instead of having helpful treads to read and maybe sometimes add to, shall I bother.

"he is in crate or in cage why bother having a dog to cage him its not right"  I appreciate you must see an awful lot, and I mean awful!! cases concerning crates!!! We are not all the same, stereotyping is not very nice nor constructive.  My Opinion!!

Couldn't agree more...my boys are/were crated but ask my OH...no ones dogs are more loved and spoilt than mine!!
Archer

Hi

Oh what I wouldn't give for being able to have an outdoor kennel but I live on the 3. floor, so its not possible.

Yes I thought I had read something about that "little problem" it is turning 1 year old :-)

I've had her since she was 8½ weeks old, and she is less alone now than she has been earlier.

I know she is left for too long, but she hasn't made this kind of problem earlier.

All I want to know is, will it continue if it is hormonal?

Jeanette

As long as there is a payoff, any behavior will continue. If she is getting your favorite possessions and chewing them and liking it, there's a payoff for her. If she is having a great time knawing on your couch, that's fun and that's a payoff, or a reward. If there is no payoff, behaviors will stop. I don't think it has as much to do with hormones as it does with behavior/reward. As dogs mature, these things will eventually stop, but not all by themselves. They need to be taught.

Carrie

The horrible stories about the dead owner's dog in a cage for so long before someone came and the dog who was kicked to death by burglers are as extreme as it gets as far as situations. To use either of those examples as guages for reasoning is beyond my comprehension. It's like people who don't wear seat belts in cars because what if they fall into a ravine with water in it and can't undo the seat belt. What are the causes of the vast majority of car accidents...the statistics? Falling into a river? (That is even more likely than the horrible stories about the dogs and therefore not a very good analogy)

Keeping my rambunctious, highly energetic, high drive Doberman puppy in a crate at times has kept him alive. Besides the obvious reasons, I would have killed him myself at times. LOL. 1/2 kidding. When he was doing one no no after another and he HAD had his hour off leash run and he HAD had his obedience practice, and I could feel my blood pressure go from 120/80 to 160/100 it was where he went to chill out and have a time out for an hour while I took a nap. What he did was his business. He could nap or chew on his chew toy. He couldn't chew on electric cords, eat my walls, floors, couch or anything else or choke to death on anything. And it is the same thing when I have to leave my house for a few hours. He gets plenty of exercise and attention, love and training time.

I'm sure there will be some of you who say, "Why have a dog if you're feel like that?" If you never felt like that, then either you have more placid breeds of dogs, which I have too in my other dogs, or you don't mind the destruction or risks involved in leaving them have the run of the house while you're unable to supervise them. No one can watch a dog 24/7. Most people have a life besides their dogs. I hardly do. They are the biggest thing going in my life. But just because someone needs some time to themselves or has a job is no reason they can't enjoy a dog or give a dog a nice, happy life.

And like I said somewhere else, a crate is a den for a dog if it is not used as punishment or used to excess. My dogs like their crates for napping and just resting.

Carrie

carrie there are times I could throttle my dogs luckily i dont ,but I know that a cage may be handy for such a time I do not use them  myself we have quite a stack of cages  gathering in the garage which come in with rescue dogs,
annie my pup has driven me demented with her messing in the house but the penny has now dropped and she is clean :)  I do not chosse to use one ( been tempetd though ;)) but try to train in other ways.
Each to their own I say im just putting forward my argument which make this a great site dont you think?

Yes! And whatever works for each person is fine as long as there's no cruelty involved and as long as the dog is safe. I admire your more laid back, patient personality. This dog has trained me to have a lot more than ever before. I've had to because you cannot be heavy handed with them and at the same time, firm.

I just got finished with a big sewing project. I never knew I had the talent as an upholsterer. I just fixed the giant disaster my dog made out of my couch....doesn't look too bad, except for the places where there's no fabric to sew....it's like totally gone. LOL. I also just had a loooong talk with Lyric, describing the virtues of self control and restraint when it comes to my furniture and anything else that I like. He agreed to put forth a little more effort in that department. I don't normally bring things like this up with him so many days after the little flaw in judgement, but this was a really difficult sewing job. So, as I pulled the needle and thread through and he was watching very intently, I explained all about it. Hee hee.

Carrie

I miss Millie's cage, it was next to the settee, and with a blanket placed on top, made a great table, at just the right height for my tea, books, cross-stitch, daily post, nail file, telephone, mobile phone, newspaper, miscellaneous paraphanalia..I was really hoping to get a lot of use out of it, but Millie has decided now that at six months she's far too old for a cage and doesn't want to get in there now, so much to my disappointment, I have had to pack it away and buy her a bed for the floor and now I have to tidy up after myself and put things away:-(

you forgot the kettle and t-bags :)

>>>>>So please do not tar every owner who uses a crate as cruel,  I had no control over my circumstances and dealt with it in a responsible manner.<<<<<

Emma I would never do that and I feel so sorry you had to give your dog up.

Nothing much to add to the debate except that when we brought Cam we also got a cage, because it seemed like a useful thing to have. He's never been left in there when we're not in the house though, because I read somewhere that dogs which have space to roam in freely when left alone tend to be happier (as opposed to being shut in a kitchen, for instance). Don't know how true this is but it works for us - Cam  always has the run of the house if we leave him (tho no access to bedroom or living room, as he eats cushions), but then I think we've been lucky - he's never really been a chewer and he's very relaxed about being left (sleeps at the top of the stairs).

As a puppy I didn't use the cage to toilet train him (but he was dead easy to toilet train, and if he hadn't been things might have been different), and both hubby and I took turns to keep an eye on him in the house. But his cage is very handy if I need somewhere to put him if I'm cleaning the floor say, or we have guests around and he keeps molesting them (he does like the ladies). I have to be honest and say he doesn't really like being in his cage - although he settles and lies down he's always preferred to be on high ground where he has a good view of the house. But maybe that's a breed thing?

I've got in there myself sometimes when playing hide and seek with him, but maybe that's a Jo thing. :D

Jo, I could be found in the crate with a bottle of wine and a glass.  When I wanted time out. Or when visitors came round throw your junk in there put the cover on bobs your uncle and my lounge was clean. lol

I now always crate my 2 dobes at night time because my young son comes down early in the morning while Im asleep to make his cereal and he is always all over them and I just dont want to take the chance.  My dogs are loving but you never know.  So its essential in my house.  I have to crate one of them when I go out anywhere because she likes to chew so its to protect her rather than my furniture.  Although I rearranged the house so that everything harmful was out of reach you dont know they could always find a way to get at something say like electric or something.  The other one does chew but not to a massive extent and is fairly trustworthy and anyway I leave her crate door open and 9 times out of 10 she goes in by herself while we are out.  I think a  crate is a godsend.  My westie is an angel from heaven, never had to crate her for any reason.  No chewing, no messing, and sometimes when I go into the kitchen to make a cup of tea where do I find her sitting in my dobes massive 48 inch cage looking like a tiny speck in the middle, I guess she prefers their large blankets to her little basket and blanket, or maybe its just to get a bit of peace from the mayhem in the living room.  Bless her.

I also find child stair gates useful.  I have three so that the dogs always have to be in the same room as me where I can keep an eye on them.  A dog could push them over but mine dont bother.  It also means I can answer the front door without them escaping.

Baby gates are great, we have 3, one on the living room door, one on the kitchen door and one at the top of the stairs...............the kids are 15, 13, 11, 8 so they thought it very funny when suddenly these gates appeared........lol.  they asked me if we had something to tell them.........lol.