Hi Everyone,

I am new here and really delighted to find this forum. I used to live in the UK but recently emigrated out to New Zealand and finally bought the dog I have been waiting my whole life for. I chose a Great Dane puppy, after 5 years of reading and research and yearly visits to Crufts & Discover Dogs, etc. I got her at 7 & half weeks back in Dec last year and she is now almost 6 months old.

I hope you'll bear with me as this is quite a long message: I am really worried about her behaviour. She is very well-behaved in the house and we are quite strict with her - always sit for any attention, always work to get anything, goes through doors after us, is not allowed on the furniture, etc, etc. She does not show any signs of dominance towards us at all and always responds when she is told off. She is also pretty good on walks and although she is obviously excited and full of energy - like any other puppy - she is not a consistent puller and I generally have no problems walking her.

The problem arises when we meet other dogs during our walks and when we go to obedience class. There are 2 things:

1) she goes absolutely beserk trying to go up and say hello and because she is getting really strong now, she practically drags me up to the other dog. It isn't funny and it makes other people nervous because they think that she is a vicious dog that I have no control over. I know this is normal behaviour and I don't mind her going up to other dogs but I want her to walk nicely, rather than pull. I have been told by Dane people that I need to start using a choke chain on her, which I am really reluctant to do - I would really like to stick with just her normal collar and leash, if I could. But they all insist that she is getting too strong for me - which is sort of true as she weighs 42kg and I only weigh 50kg, so I am rapidly losing the battle. However, our trainer at our obedience class says that a choke chain is not a good idea because it would just make the muscles of her neck stronger and that if used wrongly, can hurt her. They recommend that I get a Halti instead, to prevent her pulling. I am really confused now as to what to do. I know that most Danes I see have choke chains but then they are mostly show dogs, not pets. I also feel upset that I have to resort to any of these "devices" in the first place - surely, they say that if you train properly, you should be able to do it with just a normal collar and leash? Does it mean that I have totally failed in my training, if I have to resort to using a Halti?

2) the other more upsetting problem is that everytime she goes up to a dog, she tries to put her front leg across their shoulder or mount their head - and they hate that! I know it is only in play and again, normal puppy behaviour but it is very rough play and very "offensive" to other dogs. It's hard enough as most of them are already threatened by her size - then when she does that, they start snarling and attacking her. 90% of dogs we meet end up attacking her and it's really horrible. I always have to pull her away and the other owner is giving me dirty looks. You're trying to explain that she is only a puppy and wanting to play but at the same time, I can't help thinking that Honey is out of order as well. I have watched other puppies in her puppy school and obedience class and they are much more gentle when they play. They don't immediately start trying to mount the other dog's head or put a leg over their shoulder. She is the only one who plays in such a rough way. Is this because she is a very dominant personality? She doesn't seem dominant in the house with us at all. Is there any way I can stop her playing in such a rough way?  It means that no other dog wants to play with her. They might approach her but then her rough ways puts them off and they get scared of her.

I'd read that dogs which are not socialised enough to other dogs end up having problems when they meet dogs - they don't know how to interact and they cause other dogs to attack them. So we spent so much time and effort socialising her to dogs from the moment we got her (7 wks) - even before she finished her vaccs, I took her out and carried her around parks to see other dogs and visited friend's dogs, and of course, puppy class and now obedience and yet now, it seems that despite all our hard work, she STILL has problems interacting with other dogs!
Everyone keeps telling me that it's a puppy thing and I understand that. But I don't think it's a good enough excuse because other puppies don't behave like this, including a St Bernard in her obedience class, so it's not just small dogs. The St Bernard still plays but he's really gentle. Is it just a temperament thing? I know Honey has a good temperament (met both her parents and they are amazing, plus her breeders are famous for temperament) but she doesn't seem to have a very gentle/laid-back temperament...she's more like the tomboy bully! Or is it not her temperament but just a "bad behaviour" she has picked up?
It's like if you have a 6-yr old child who only plays with other kids by punching them and slapping them around. He would never have any friends because he plays in such a horrible way. OK, so you might say that he is still only 6yrs old and very young but that's no excuse: you would never let him go around punching other kids just because of that - you'd make him play in a nice way. I think it's the same for Honey. So is there any way I can make Honey play more gently?

It's getting to the point where it's freaking me out. If it really is only a puppy thing, is it good when other dogs attack her because that might eventually teach her to be more gentle? (I'm worried that she'll attack back and then there'll be a dogfight!) Someone suggested that she is trying to be dominant with all that mounting and paw stuff and that the older dogs are putting her in her place - which is great. I would really like other dogs to beat her up more but unfortunately, because she is so big, she usually wins most of the time and that seems to just reinforce her bullying behaviour. She really needs to play with some older, dominant dogs who will teach her to be a bit more polite - but I don't know where to find them! All our "friends" in obedience class are a lot smaller and I don't have any close friends with large dogs.
(I must add that she is very good in obedience class, is often used for demonstration because she does the exercises so well even though we have only been going for 2 weeks. So she is not a generally unruly dog).

Thanks,
Hsin-Yi

It sounds to me like puppy stuff, but dominant breed puppy stuff. She sounds a lot like my Doberman puppy. Puppy stuff or not, she needs to learn her manners. Does she know the command, "leave it!" Do you use that in other contexts? I say that to my Dobe when he's too pushy with other dogs. He wants to play, play, play and paw them in the face, very paw oriented. However, he is not so bad with the pulling. He was.

I don't like regular choke collars, as I think they can damage their trachea and vertebrae. I don't like halties because if they lurch and turn, their vertebrae can also get injured. I tell you what I've used and it is gentle if used properly. That is a prong pinch collar. You must place it high on the neck and firmly fitting. The minute they pull, it begins to pinch, just a little, but evenly distributed all around their neck so there's not a lot of pressure in any one place. It doesn't take much at all and they stop pulling. This all happens before it causes real pain, just a little pinching sensation. It cannot be jerked too roughly and must be high on their neck, but just below their adam's apple. You can feel it. Use treats when you say "heel" and when she's heeling well, say, "good heel." And give a treat as you walk along. If she strains to get at the other dogs, say, "leave it." Or what ever word you want to use as long as it's the same always. And pull her back.

You'll have to start getting firm with her at these times. But always remember to praise the second she behaves and whatever word or command you use to get her to stop, ie: "leave it" or "no pull," then when she stops remember to very cheerfully say, "good leave it" or "good no pull." I have really found that this reiterating the command in the positive form when the behavior is good teaches them quicker. For instance, the snow has finally melted here where I live and my Dobe pup, Lyric has no clue about staying out of the vegetable garden or flower gardens. When he first started walking through them, I'd say, "out!" Of course he didn't know what I meant. But I hollered at him, "OUT!!" and he walked out, could have been coincidental. But the second his foot was out, I said, "Good out" in my most lilting tone. In a week he's definitely understanding and complying most of the time. It could be just my tone of voice and not the words themselves. But, I have a hunch it's both...just a feeling.

Your trainer may not like that collar either, but she isn't the one getting dragged by a horse. A lot of people go for 100% positive reinforcement. I rely mostly on that too. I see it works better in almost all cases. However, with a Doberman or other very dominant breed, a combination of both works better. I have read many books on my breed and that is a shared sentiment. They need some firm, bossy instruction and they need to follow the rules. Period. That is not the equivilant to harsh, mistreatment as so many would have you think. I don't believe in hitting or screaming and frightening an animal. But it seems like the trend is getting to be almost permissive and that's what ruined a whole generation of children.

But I tell you what I do do. I watch and am aware of any good behavior, even when not specifically asking for it. And I capitolize on it with lavish praise and/or treats. But if I have to tell the dog no about something serious, I tell him in no uncertain terms. My four dogs are happy and playful, fairly well trained, well mannered, not shy or aggressive. They're not perfect but they're pretty good. They get the best treatment, love and affection, premium food and a special, fun off leash 2 -3 mile walk/hike in the wilderness where I live every day. I love them all to death. But that doesn't mean that I let them do whatever the heck they want. Furniture? LOL. Well, mine are all spoiled in that way. Actually, it's because I like them to cuddle with me by the TV. There's not always a lot of room left for me but at least the Lab goes on her own couch and the Chihuahuas and the Doberman share mine.

So, without harshness or anger, but with firmness and showing the dog what you want, praising always the second the dog complies, (timing is everything) consistancy and practice and the right equipment for a big, strong, pushy dog, I think things will look up. Please let us know over the next few weeks. Good luck and I'm glad you're here. Welcome.

Carrie

Carrie, if you do a search for "prong collar"or "pinch collar" you will discover how they are regarded in the UK. Their use on a sensitive, fine-coated breed such as a Dane could be a disaster. The RSPCA is trying to get them banned.

There is a very big difference between positive reinforcement and "permissiveness", and this misunderstanding is what leads people to dismiss operant conditioning out of hand unfortunately.  If you read, watch and practise purely positive training you will come to understand that.  IMHO far more dogs have been/are and will be "ruined" by "bossy" instruction. :(

If the sport of Schutzhund using extremely high drive "dominant" (yuk) breeds, bred for work for generations, can be taught entirely with positive reinforcement then your average "pet" dog of any breed should be a doddle. :D

Don't reject the method just because the operator is not competent!

Thanks, Carrie, for your thoughts. She does know the "Leave" command and is pretty good at it with objects and also with dogs if we're far enough away. But the thing is, I don't want her to "leave" other dogs all the time - I'm not expecting her to ignore them - in fact, I want her to interact with them...but just nicely!!
I do try to be firm with her when she is with other dogs and praise her if she is just sniffing nicely and then tell her off if she starts trying to mount their head - but it's like she does deaf when there are other dogs around and doesn't listen to a single thing I say! Grrrr!!

But I will continue trying. Am thinking of trying to find some big, adult dogs for her to play with so she can leanr to be more "polite" when she plays...dogs seem to teach each other far better than we can.

Thanks again for your input!
Hsin-Yi

Please don't use a choke chain on your dog, it can damage the trachea and the cervical verterbrae, sometimes permanently and is not necessary.  Pinch collars are really not suitable for pet use, that is not what they were designed for and would you really want to rely on pain to control your dog or anything or anyone else for that matter?

Headcollars are an excellent method of management for big, strong dogs; they do not actually prevent pulling in most dogs but they do make them easier to manage in a kind, effective, way and, unless you are a Sumo wrestler, a fit active dog that weighs 30 kgs or more can also damage you if it lunges or pulls in excitement.  There is no "shame" in using a control "device" such as a headcollar; far from it, it demonstrates that you care not only about your own welfare but that of your dog and others and proves that you are a responsible owner.  I often use a headcollar in environments which are risky eg snowy, slippery conditions, areas of high arousal.

All breeds have differing temperaments and levels of play which are not necessarily connected to "bad" outlooks or behaviour.  The key to managing your puppy is trying to find a dog of equal size and play levels which is probably not easy in your situation.  I am afraid I don't have any easy answers for you apart from it may help if you slightly adjust your outlook on your dog and not view her behaviour as in any way "nasty", "dominant" etc; labels are not, IME, very helpful or necessarily correct!  You also have to accept that you cannot change other people only your attitude to them.  Naturally neither you nor others want to encourage rude behaviour from your dog, it is not acceptable, using a headcollar will enable you to exert more control and make you feel more comfortable in situations where you may feel that you are under scrutiny.  This will result in a lessening of tension in you, a more relaxed dog and probably better relationships with the dogs and the other owners. :D

I am not a particular fan of the word "dominant" it is too often used in a perjorative sense.  Your dog sounds a perfectly normal, rambunctious, boisterous puppy.  I am also not a particular fan of using other dogs to "put her in her place" or "beat her up" as this can just trigger and escalate inappropriate behaviour.

NOt sure if this helps or not :D

I'm no expert on dogs but I have a Gentle leader head collar (Halti) for my dog and she walks like an angel when she has hers on compared to dragging me with her normal collar on. I would definately recommend one. It took her a while to get used to it but well worth it.

Thanks for your thoughts! I went out today and got a Gentle Leader (took her in and had her fitted specially) and she took to it quite well in the pet shop, although I will obviously go through a slower acclimatisation period at home again. It actually looked quite nice (lovely lavendar colour!) and not as horrible as I'd imagined. Hopefully, as you say, it will help me feel more confident and in control and that might positively influence her behaviour.

You're right - I think I need to adjust my outlook a bit! My husband keeps saying that I'm too harsh on her but I guess because she is going to be such a huge dog (and is already pretty huge!), I'm paranoid about nipping any problems in the bud and keeping on top of her all the time. I keep telling myself that if rough play is the only problem she's got, then maybe I should be counting my blessings! Reading some of the forums and all the problems other people have with their puppies, like persistent barking, chewing, mouthing, nipping, jumping up, growling, etc...I feel very lucky that I have none of these conventional problems with Honey. Aside from her behaviour towards other dogs (and it's not aggressive), she is a model puppy, really.

But at the same time, I do think that she needs to learn to modify her behaviour. I know labels are not useful but her mounting behaviour and paw over the shoulder of other dogs is definitely dominant in dog language and she should learn that she needs to treat other dogs with respect. Some people have suggested that because we got her at 7 & half weeks, she never got the chance to be taught good doggy manners by her mother - and so now, she goes around acting up when she really should know better. And since she came to live with us and only met other puppies smaller than her (even though they were older), she just continued to win all the time because she is always physically stronger...it's like the big playground bully who has never had any adult pull him up by the collar and say, "Oy! You shouldn't do that!"...I really think that she needs to be taught respect and taught it by older, more dominant dogs - who can teach it much better than we can. Don't they say that dogs need to learn social skills too? That the reason you take puppies to socialisation classes is so that they can learn to "speak dog" and not antagonise other dogs by doing anti-social things, like staring them in the eyes and mounting them and such...so really, I don't think I can just excuse her behaviour as normal puppy behaviour. Otherwise, when she is 2 yrs old and still trying to dominate every dog she meets - and antagonising them in the process - what excuse will I have?
If you really think it is just normal, boisterous behaviour - do you think she will just grow out of it and eventually start behaving nicely around other dogs?

Anyway, thanks again for your comments!
Hsin-YI

At 7 1/2 weeks your puppy was certainly not removed from its dam/siblings too soon to learn any manners; in fact this is the optimum time to place most dogs of most breeds in new families. However socialisation and good manners must of course be continued and maintained especially through the first two years. Mounting is often merely a form of over excitement and the paw over the shoulder an invitation to play when it is used in the context of a giant breed with other puppies.

"I really think that she needs to be taught respect and taught it by older, more dominant dogs - who can teach it much better than we can. "

Yes if these dogs themselves are well behaved and well socialised, NOT if they are just going to bully her!

Only be exposing her to other relaxed dogs with relaxed owners will she learn her limits; those people who advise exposing your dog to those that will "put her in her place" may have unfortunate consequences.  YOUR dog may then develop a fear of being "bullied" and also it will not necessarily prevent your dog "bullying" dogs that are more submissive.

Maybe you can mark the inappropriate behaviours by removing her when "inappropriate" behaviours start and shaping good behaviour by sweet talking and food rewards?

Thanks again for your advice! I'm glad to hear one opinion that says 7 1/2 weeks wasn't wrong - I have been agonising over that and chastising myself for it, although I had read in books that 7 1/2 wks was OK...we were trying to avoid the long car journey (9+hours) during the 8th week "fear period" and the 7th week was more convenient for us than the 9th week, so I guess we were just being selfish. I have been wondering if we're paying for it now! It's a relief to think that it might not be the cause of the problem.

I have to say, watching her when she plays, it doesn't just look like over-excitement. If allowed to play freely, she constantly mounts the other dog's head and grapples them to the ground, with both her front legs around the other dog's head and neck - almost like a hug but more like a wrestle in reality. She also keeps trying to pin the other dog down. It really does look like she is trying to "dominate" them.
However, I really do hope that it is more of an exuberant puppy thing than real dominance behaviour. She is never aggressive (never heard her growl or seen her show teeth) and seems to have a very good temperament. Like today in the pet shop, there were 3 strange shop attendants she didn't know holding her and putting this scary, uncomfortable thing on her muzzle (Gentle Leader) and she didn't growl or anything - she just lay quietly and sent me a puzzled, long-suffering look every so often but was very good and "resigned" about things, wagging her tail slightly. I thought: a dog must have a really good temperament to allow strangers to do that, surely?

I will definitely try to find some "nice" older dogs for her to play with and make sure that they are teaching her, not bullying her. Perhaps our obedience club can help as they have lots of classes and lots of adult dogs - somebody must have a nice, relaxed older dog who can take Honey under their wing...
I will also try your suggestion of rewarding appropriate behaviour and removing her for inappropriate behaviour.

Thanks again!

I understand and studied operant conditioning, in fact took a good deal of animal behavior in school. And, as I said, I am all for positive reinforcement and rely on it in most instances. I do tell my dogs, "No" about certain things however. One of my little dogs was in my yard last fall and decided all 15 LBs of him could run a black bear off my property. He was running and barking his head off. I hollered LOUDLY at him, "JOSE NO! YOU COME!!!!" You don't know how scary that was to me. I was freaking. His prey drive got the better of him for a few seconds, but when I repeated, he finally came back. Then he was told, "Good boy." The bear, luckily ran. "No" is negative. Postivie would have meant waiting until he stopped and then rewarding him. There was no time to wait around for him to stop that behavior on his own. That's a combination right there of positive and negative. He got hollered at, but then rewarded when he came.

I have never, ever ruined a dog and I've had dogs continually for 45 years. How could you say such a thing? I've always had well mannered and at the same time, happy dogs who were not submissive or aggressive or cowed in any way shape or form. I've also trained horses since I was 12 years old. Natural consequences are not the same as punishment. Prong collars can indeed be dangerous, of course if used incorrectly and that's why they are probably being banned there. Put into the wrong hands, any collar can hurt a dog. A flat collar while a dog is straining, before they've learned to leave slack can damage their trachea. If used PROPERLY, prongs are not dangerous and not painful because the dog stops pulling at the first sign of a pinch. This is not abuse. My dog whom I've used one on never once winced in pain. He just stopped pulling. Then I'd switch to a flat collar so he wouldn't become dependent on the prong. Now, he has learned not to pull and I can use just a flat collar. If he regresses, all I have to do is stop walking forward. That's his "punishment" (actually, negative reward) .....no forward movement. When he gives me slack, on we go. The reward is to go forward, to go for a walk. Taking that option away is withdrawing a reward. Treats are a plenty while he walks nicely. He walks nicely without any leash, but not proofed yet with a prey type distraction.

Er sorry, could you not recall your dog without a NO? Asking your dog to recall is positive! Where do you get the idea that you would have to wait until he decided to stop?   I think you need to look at operant conditioning again!

Of course any piece of equipment can be abused but don't kid yourself that pinch collars do not cause pain, if they did not why would they be used in preference to flat leather ones?  Simple because the effect is different; pinch collars cause pain anf that is why dogs walk well in them to avoid the pain caused if they pull against them. 

I see nowhere in my post where I have suggested that YOU have ruined a dog.

"prongs are not dangerous and not painful because the dog stops pulling at the first sign of a pinch." 

Pinch is a good euphemism for pain!

"He just stopped pulling"

Why? because it caused pain.

You can teach dogs not to pull without a choke or pinch collar by just the method you describe; the traffic light system - pull has the consequence that forward movement is stopped, slack means proceed.

"Er sorry, could you not recall your dog without a NO? Asking your dog to recall is positive! Where do you get the idea that you would have to wait until he decided to stop?   I think you need to look at operant conditioning again!"

Er sorry. It's called strong prey drive and even the best trained dogs may not have obeyed in that situation. My dogs are trained, but not perfect because I don't normally care about perfect. So, I haven't worked that obsessively with them. I had a GSD in the past who had an excellent, consistant recall who may not have come, simply by asking under those circumstances.

"prongs are not dangerous and not painful because the dog stops pulling at the first sign of a pinch." 

"Pinch is a good euphemism for pain!"

Discomfort is not the same as pain. If it were pain, I would have seen some kind of reaction other than walking and not pulling. There would be a wince, a yelp, a cry. Would you consider a bit in a horses mouth cruel? Or a martingale to keep a horse from throwing his head too restricting, and causing the bit to apply pressure? How do you think a horse is trained and managed? And I have always been very gentle, had very quiet hands and was sweet to my horses. I love my animals.

"You can teach dogs not to pull without a choke or pinch collar by just the method you describe; the traffic light system - pull has the consequence that forward movement is stopped, slack means proceed."

Yes, but until they get it, in the beginning there is a good deal of pulling right smack over the trachea, at least with some more head strong breeds.

I looked into the Doberman breed for a good year and a half before I got mine, this being my first Doberman, but certainly not my first dog. I read several books on the breed and training the breed. In everything I read, it was of the opinion of the Doberman people that purely positive was not as effective as a combination of both for that breed. They are very trainable and smart, but very dominant. At the same time, very sensative so you cannot be harsh or heavy handed. But you have to be firm at the same time. There is a real, touchy balance and my dog is turning out beautifully, super temperament, extremely well socialized, not one bit shy or aggressive, happy to be learning and having a job to do and very, very affectionate with me. He has a great life living where we do and having companionship, exercise, hikes, swimming and learing his whole day long every day as I am home most all the time.

He has already shown a readiness to defend me in an incident which happened while visiting my son in another state....when someone came into his apartment in the middle of the night. The dog stood his ground and threatened menacingly without any lunging forward or direct attack. He assessed the situation correctly and waited to see if anything was going to come of it. Nothing did.

I'm not going to debate and argue with you further. I'm not into your accusatory and insulting tone and your implications that what I'm doing is cruel and unusual. You can say that you haven't implied that if you want.

Carrie, i think you on a 'hiding to nothing' with this debate! (LOL)
The bottom line with the bear scenario is that what you did worked! I would guess that the negative reinforcement was in actually stopping the dog from chasing. I doubt whether you raised your voice when you knew the dog was committed to returning to you. I would doubt that 'positive only' techniques would have resulted in a more effective result.

I find that with trainable dogs a 'hard voice' is an extremely effective way of instantly breaking the dogs concentration from undesireable behaviour. Once the dog is back focussed on you, use all the positive reinforcement you want!

I cant defend a 'pinch collar' because I've never seen one and wouldn't expect to ever need one. I do know that effective use of a choke chain would stop that Great Dane from dragging its owner across the street to play with other dogs (probably in one lesson!)
I am also confident that if done in the right way, the dog will remain perfectly happy with the handler. I'm not a great fan of chains for most people as very people seem to be able to use them effectively. It wont work for the original poster because she doesnt feel comfortable using one.

Thank you Havoc for your very intelligent and reasonable reply. Yes, with the bear, I wasn't about to go to within 10 feet of it to remove my dog. LOL. And yes, the minute the dog turned and started returning to me, my voice changed from banshee to benevolent. It was all encouraging and praise as he was coming. LOL. It would be sheer folly to chastise him for coming. LOL. Sorry, I can't help but chuckle.

Yes, whatever needs to be done when a strong, muscular dog is dragging you across the pavement must be done. You can hardly remove your dog if you're lying prone on the ground. And I agree, if someone isn't taught how to use these collars, they shouldn't be used. And a regular choke chain puts more pressure than a prong does as the prong distributes pressure evenly and lightly. A long necked dog, such as my Doberman runs a risk with a halti in that if he bolts or any sudden movement, it can wrench the heck out of his neck. I hardly use my prong anymore as he's learned to respect a regular collar with the exception of entering his group classes. We still need to work on those distractions. But when he was about 4 or 5 months old, he was already strong and even stopping and holding fast to the leash wasn't enough to keep him from straining and gagging as the flat collar was squeezing down on his trachea. So that is why I trained with the prong....much easier on his neck and throat. Any pulling stops well before any strain is put on the vertebrae or trachea. Of course you don't jerk or be rough with them. Good God, I wouldn't hurt my dog for the world. And before this Doberman, I never had to use a collar such as this on any other dog, and I've had numerous dogs. They were just not as exuberant or hard drivin. Then of course, immediately and ongoingly while the dog is respecting, he is rewarded. After a little maturity, my dog has learned to resist some of that hard and excessive drive inclination.

I haven't had to resort to anything like that with my Chihuahuas. LOL. It's a harness for them or nothing.

Thanks for your post.

Carrie

Thanks Carrie, just trying to mediate a bit!

I'm not big on choke chains as I dont use them for my own dogs, but I know that they work. However, if the owner is having to use an amount of force that could cause damage, then i would say that it is being used incorrectly. The "correction" should be a small rapid movement to the side of the dogs neck (a check!), as soon as the dog starts to move out of the heel position rather than violently pulling against the windpipe. This should be very rapid with the minimum force necessary and if the dog has already lunged it is too late!

The majority of people dont seem to able to pick up the timing, speed and force required and thats why they aren't usually very effective. I'm not going to advise the original poster to use one but in the right hands they are very effective, very quickly and with compensating positive reinforcement the dog stays happy.

Yes, and when I've used regular choke collars in the past, I found that it was mostly the sound of the chain sliding through the ring that alerted them and such a quick, light pop and release that there really wasn't much pressure at all.

But for a dog who thinks he's a rhinoserous, the prong doesn't squeeze down because the dog doesn't try to pull much at all. He gets the picture quickly.

I know what you mean though with the choke. With my 2nd GSD, he pulled so hard at first, he was stronger than my Dobe and the choke collar, as much as I'd try to pop/release.....he's be straining so hard that I couldn't get any pop as there was constant tension. But he finally go onto it. I remember a trainer in a puppy class I took him to yelling at me to jerk him as he was litterally dragging me around the ring. Finally I handed her the leash and said, "You jerk him." That collar didn't faze him. She then found out what a plow horse he was, just about pulled her over. He just wasn't ready for a group class yet. LOL. He was quite fine at home with positive/ treats etc. But as he matured, he turned into a fantastic dog, extremely obedient and sweet. I haven't had that much trouble actually with my Dobe. But I didn't have a prong collar way back then. My Lab has always been completely willing and calm, no need for anything special at all. So, out of my four dogs, this Dobe is my biggest challenge. He's very, very busy. He has things to do, people to meet and sights to see. He has to keep my in line so I can stay on schedule.  LOL.

Carrie

(woops, sorry for the double post. It didn't work the first time and then I decided to add a couple of things and then they both worked! LOL.)

Thanks Havoc, you're a good mediator, very diplomatic.

Yes, and when I've used regular choke collars in the past, I found that it was mostly the sound of the chain sliding through the ring that alerted them and such a quick, light pop and release that there really wasn't much pressure at all.

But for a dog who thinks he's a rhinoserous, the prong doesn't squeeze down because the dog doesn't try to pull much at all. He gets the picture quickly.

What kind of dogs do you have?

I know what you mean though with the choke. With my 2nd GSD, he pulled so hard at first, he was stronger than my Dobe and the choke collar, as much as I'd try to pop/release.....he's be straining so hard that I couldn't get any pop as there was constant tension. But he finally go onto it. I remember a trainer in a puppy class I took him to yelling at me to jerk him as he was litterally dragging me around the ring. Finally I handed her the leash and said, "You jerk him." That collar didn't faze him. She then found out what a plow horse he was, just about pulled her over. He just wasn't ready for a group class yet. LOL. He was quite fine at home with positive/ treats etc. But as he matured, he turned into a fantastic dog, extremely obedient and sweet. I haven't had that much trouble actually with my Dobe. But I didn't have a prong collar way back then. My Lab has always been completely willing and calm, no need for anything special at all. So, out of my four dogs, this Dobe is my biggest challenge. He's very, very busy. He has things to do, people to meet and sights to see. He has to keep my in line so I can stay on schedule.  LOL.

Carrie

Oh, Havoc, I'm a bit confused now! Could you please explain -?

"The "correction" should be a small rapid movement to the side of the dogs neck (a check!), as soon as the dog starts to move out of the heel position"

- I don't necessarily want my puppy to stay at heel position all the time. I think this is too much to ask of a 6 month old, especially. Our puppy class teacher said that it's quite understandable that young dogs (like human teenagers) want to walk on ahead a bit and away from "mum" and that it's fine for them to do so, as long as they keep the lead slack. I have quite a long lead and so I allow Honey to walk slightly ahead of me, as long as she keeps the lead slack. I do sometimes shorten the lead and bring her in to my left side and I use the "Close" command for that and she understands that. She is getting pretty good with that - I practise it for a short stretch on every walk and I also take her specially into downtown on a Sat, when there are loads of people and make her walk "Close" on the pavement with me, through the crowds, past all the shops and cafes, etc. She has been very good with that. But in general, when we are walking through the residential streets or in the parks, I'm happy for her to walk in front of me slightly, as long as she is not pulling. There is so much for her to sniff and investigate, I don't think it would be fair to keep her by my side all the time. It would also mean her having to walk really slow as I'm very short and one of her long-legged strides probably equals three of mine!

So does this mean that if I put her on a Gentle Leader, she'll have to walk by my side all the time? I really don't want to force her to have to do that!

Hsin-Yi

hsinyi,

I'm going to jump out on a limb since Havoc isn't here yet and he can fix this if I'm misreading him. I have a feeling that he was using the heel as an example of when one might use a leash correction. Of course, there's such a thing as a loose heel or just walking along which ever side you want, more of a casual walk as long as the dog doesn't drag you. If the dog pulls and strains, you might use that what he was talking about. Or say, if you're walking along and your dog lunges out at someone else walking, you might use a leash pop as a correction to bring the dog's attention and body back closer to you. So, I am pretty sure (and he can answer when he sees this) that he meant IF you were heeling your dog and the dog went way out of line, that is a place where you could give a little pop and release to the collar.

Carrie

Thanks for clearing things up, Carrie! That's OK then - I understand the need for a quick correction, as long as it doesn't mean that she has to walk by my side all the time on a Gentle Leader. Even with my normal leash, I always shorten it when we approach anyone or if we pass anything that might frighten her ( paper bag! :) so hopefully, it won't be that much different with a Gentle Leader.

She is actually at the vet's being spayed today and will probably be quite dopey & subdued for a day or two, so I probably won't have much chance to practise the Gentle Leader for a while.

Hi Hsin-yi

Just a quick question for you. Am I right in saying that your pup is being spayed at approx 4 1/2-5 months old?  The reason I ask is that I've been reading up on the ages that bitches (particularly of giant breeds) are routinely spayed in different countries and it seems that the USA (if that is where you're from), is spaying pups quite young (by UK standards). I just wondered if your vet has given you a specific reason for doing it now, or was it your choice. I'm not implying anything by this :), its just me being nosy!

Cheers
Good luck with your pup
Ali :)

Hi Ali,

So sorry I didn't reply to your question sooner! I meant to and then I didn't right away and then of course, I forgot about it! Just remembered today...

Anyway, in answer to your question - Honey got spayed last Thur, when she turned 6 months. I'm actually in New Zealand and I think they follow the UK standards - most dogs seem to get spayed after 6 months, although with the giant breeds, they tend to wait until they are over 9 months, as they come into season later and mature slower.

But my husband and I were really keen to spay Honey as soon as we could and 6 months was the earliest the vet would do it. We don't mind about any lack of growth (I've heard that people say that's a side-effect) - if anything, I'd prefer if Honey to stop growing! She is already bigger than the breed average for her sex and age and I think she's going to be a monster! I got a Dane for the temperament, not for their sheer size! :)
I also heard that dog shelters will spay puppies as young as 13 weeks and research has shown no significant side-effects. I'm all for spaying early, although I know it's a very controversial subject. I just didn't want to even risk the chance of dealing with any hormones coming into play and all that - I wanted to get her before she started maturing in any way!
Anyway, she seems to have come through the process OK - wound is oozing a bit at the moment but doesn't seem infected or anything and she is as bright as a button. Her stitches come out in about 5 days.

Hsin-Yi

<<We don't mind about any lack of growth (I've heard that people say that's a side-effect) - if anything, I'd prefer if Honey to stop growing! She is already bigger than the breed average for her sex and age and I think she's going to be a monster!>>

Oops! :( Unfortunately spaying her before her growth plates have closed is likely to delay her maturity and she is likely to end up taller than she would have otherwise ...

"Oops!  Unfortunately spaying her before her growth plates have closed is likely to delay her maturity and she is likely to end up taller than she would have otherwise ... "

I know - I've heard that as well! It seems like you just can't win either way, depending on who you listen to... :)

You should see our two play! They will launch at each other from opposite sides of the room, trying to get their 'arms' round each others neck. It looks a lot like WWF in here sometimes. Any they will both quite happily try and hump each other in the head or fall on top of each other, whilst yelling like banshees. But as far as dominance goes, Dobby sees herself as 'lower than worms', and is submissive or at least 'appeasey' (how about that for a made up word!) to other dogs, and Morgan is pretty well adjusted and 'speaks dog' quite competently. Dobby is now 18 months, but when she was 7 months, she was exactly the nightmare you describe - thought every other dog was her pal and wanted her to jump on its head. We had the advantage in that she's only 20kg and couldn't drag us about. We taught her not to jump by using a friendly stooge dog (mates GR), and only allowing her to 'meet and greet' when she kept all her feet on the floor. If she jumped and pulled, the other dog was taken away until she settled, but if she was 'steady', we'd let them off for a play (a lot like teaching her not to jump up people really). Maybe you could try something similar, but if she's too strong to hold, attach her lead to something immovable and let your 'stooge' approach you (sorry if this has been suggested already, I'm bad for skimming threads) Dobby has now pretty much grown out of it, although her recall from other dogs is not 100%, she has learnt how to approach more politely and check whether the 'long lost friend' would like to have its head jumped on before actually going ahead with it. I don't really have much in the way of advice to offer, but hope this might help to reassure you a bit. We've always found that well socialised adults will make allowances for 'puppyishness', and I'd imagine that a 'nice' older dog would recognise that your girl is still a pup in spite of her size.

Oh, Jenna, that is the best thing I have read so far! It is so reassuring to hear that other people's dogs actually behave in exactly the same way - and that they turned out OK once they matured. It makes you think that maybe, it might just be boisterous puppy behaviour after all and not anything "nasty". What kind of dogs do you have? I agree - her size and weight is definitely adding to the problem, not only for me holding her but for other dogs who find her threatening even before she starts with her wrestling routine.

I will definitely try the friendly stooge dog thing. It sounds like it really worked for you.

Oh, and you made a really good point about the "socialisation" of other people's dogs. I hadn't really thought of that - I always automatically blame myself and my own dog :) but I hadn't thought that maybe, it's the other dog's problem as well. You're right - if they are well socialised, they should be able to deal with her behaviour better so some of them who seem to just attack her as soon as she gets near, are probably as much in the wrong as her.

I have to say, I am shocked at how many people seem to have badly socialised dogs or at least, dogs that react very defensively. I'd always thought that dogs are very friendly creatures and assumed that all people made huge efforts to socialise their puppies but I'm constantly astounded at the number of times I hear comments like, "Oh, he isn't very good around other dogs - he gets quite vicious" or "oh, we haven't really socialised him properly so he might bite. He's a bit mad - he goes for other dogs" - and they say it quite proudly! The really unfair thing is that most of the time, the dog in question is quite small, like a Jack Russell terrier or Miniature Schnauzer or something and so even though they are acting like the Hound of Baskervilles at the end of their lead, they are easy to ignore or control - whereas if my 40kg Dane puppy did that, everyone would think that she was a killer dog! I sometimes watch the way small dogs fling themselves at others, all teeth bared, and think that if a large dog did that, there would be hell to pay but with a small dog, they seem to get away with murder. Not that I'm saying all small dogs are bad! I've met some really lovely, well-socialised ones. But they do seem to be able to get away with more. I keep reminding myself that Honey is actually not too bad - at least she isn't lunging like THAT! Her overtures are all friendly and playful.

Anyway, thank you again for your reassuring post. It has made me feel much better. I don't mind any amount of hard work and effort and training, as long as I know that I don't have a "nasty" dog.

Hsin-Yi ,
Sorry for any confusion. I wasn't advising you to use a choke chain for exactly the reason you have mentioned. I must be a mind reader! LOL. I guessed from your posts that your style and nature wouldn't suit using a choke chain. I insist on proper heelwork for my own dogs as soon as the puppy goes on the lead at all times (not obedience competition style but the slightly more relaxed gundog style) This means no sniffing, messing about & definitely no pulling. Sounds harsh but the vast majority of their exercise is spent free-running. As far as I'm concerned when my dogs are at heel (either on or off lead) they are 'on duty'. This suits me and my dogs for my requirements (working gundogs)

I wouldnt advise you on my methods because i dont think you'd want to use them (based on your posts). I'm confident that i could stop your dog pulling me towards other dogs in one lesson without upsetting her, but that would involve teaching her that she doesnt decide where we are going and that in the majority of cases i wouldnt be allowing her to get to the strange dog to play. Suits me but doubt it would suit you! I'm sure you'll get there in the end because you seemed determined enough, but you'll take longer than i would!

With regard your dog being rough with other dogs i really dont think that there is much in the way of "training" you can do. Dogs react differently to different dogs and just because one 'squares her up' wont mean that she'll stop being rough with a more submissive one. It actually surprises me that the majority of strange dogs can get along as well as they do. It wouldnt really happen that way in the wild, and probably shows how far domesticated dogs have become. I expect she'll steady up in the end, but your going to have to hope she doesn't do any "damage" in the mean time. If you really tighten up on the recall, you should be able to call her away from any situation when it starts to get out of hand. My method for that would involve building up using positive and negative reinforcement. Sounds like you'd rather use positive only so perhaps someone on here will advise?

Best of luck anyway!

Carrie,Thanks for your kind words. I have 4 labradors (+ a current litter of pups) plus a Jack Russell.

Thanks for your thoughts and advice. Please don't think that I'm a soft touch! I am willing to use whatever methods, positive or negative, to get the right result. I really believe in discipline and I am actually considered quite "mean" by a lot of my Dane owner acquaintances (who are mostly show people) because I expect a much higher standard of obedience and good behaviour from Honey than they do from their dogs. I am very quick to tell her off if she does anything she isn't supposed to and I can be very firm and "scary".

But, I think you're right - our situations are a bit different as Honey is just a pet and not a working gun-dog. I want her to be a well-behaved, nice-to-live-with pet and that's all so I don't expect her to heel everytime she is walking with me. I think this would be very unfair as she doesn't get any free-run exercise or exposure to the great outdoors (except our small garden) so all her exercise & exposure is on leash walks with me. This means that if I make her walk beside me all the time, she would never get to sniff and explore - and I think this is quite important for their mental well-being. It would be different if she was like your dogs and could run around and sniff things when she was off-leash, because then I would know that she has had her fill and that when she was walking with me, she has to be "on duty" as it were. So it's not because I'm too soft to teach her to walk to heel all the time but because I don't think she should have to, given that she doesn't get free exercise at any other time. I do teach and use the "Close" command where she does have to walk by my side and not sniff anything or stop for anything or go in another direction and that's when she is "on duty" - I do this for a stretch on every walk and also I take her specially into downtown on Saturdays and walk her through the crowds of people, past busy cafes and noisy shops & such - and she has to stay by my side and walk nicely, without stopping to sniff anything. She is getting quite good with that.

"This means no sniffing, messing about & definitely no pulling."

I might allow the sniffing and messing about on a long, loose leash but I definitely don't allow pulling! I'm very strict on that, especially because of her size and generally have no problems walking her - I am not pulled down the street or have aching arms or anything like that. And I have to reiterate that she really doesn't pull at all when walking - keeps looking back at me and slowing down whenever the leash gets tight - EXCEPT when she sees another dog. If I make no move towards the other dog and jerk her lead a few times and tell her "Leave", she'll lose interest and ignore the other dog after a while - it's only if I start to walk towards the other dog to let her say hello that she goes beserk and pulls and lunges. If I can just get her to walk nicely up to the other dog, that would be great! Anyway, hopefully, this Gentle Leader will do the trick.

"With regard your dog being rough with other dogs i really dont think that there is much in the way of "training" you can do."

But it seems really sad that if I can't alter her behaviour, then it means that I have to deal with it by avoiding other dogs and that doesn't seem right! Surely the whole point of taking our puppies to socialisation classes is so that they can interact with other dogs nicely. If - the minute they show problems - we cure it by preventing them going up to other dogs, then that's not curing the problem, is it, but just avoiding it? I never understand people who say that they just don't allow their dogs to go up and meet other dogs, because they would behave badly - surely that means they should teach their dogs to behave well, not avoid the situation all together?? It would be like preventing your child from going to school and mixing with other kids, because your child always slaps other children...surely, you would teach your child not to slap and to play nicely, rather than just keep them at home and deny them the company of other children?
Or am I being very naiive?

"that would involve teaching her that she doesnt decide where we are going and that in the majority of cases i wouldnt be allowing her to get to the strange dog to play."
"If you really tighten up on the recall, you should be able to call her away from any situation when it starts to get out of hand. My method for that would involve building up using positive and negative reinforcement"

Oh, I WOULD like to teach her that she doesn't decide where we're going and also to recall her away from any situation, using both positive and negative methods, so please do tell!! :)

Thank again :)
Hsin-Yi

Four Labs! I love them. I have an almost 13 yr. old Chocolate Lab. She's been a wonderful dog, easy to train and so much fun to watch swim. She's positive she'll get one of those ducks swimming in the lake or the ponds on the golf course where we run every day. A Jack Russle too! Little characters aren't they. Wow. So, we both like large and small dogs. I also have a Chihuahua and Chi mix.

But this Dobe is the smartest dog I've ever had but "creative" in his learning. That's what they told me too, warned me. You have to be more creative. LOL. They get bored exceedingly easily and you have to switch around to different things and not be too repetitive and in certain situations, make them think they thought of it. But every day we go off leash on the golf course while it's not being used or on hikes around here. (I live in a very remote area of Idaho.) That boy needs his rip roaring around. Then we practice on a leash and he must heel properly. Sometimes we take walks with my niece and her dog in an area that is not safe to be off leash, so at those times he can do a loose heel. That's ok. So he is learning the different ways of walking. Left or  right tight heel and loose. I taught him early on, "lets go." So, that pulls him off distractions. He must obey immediately and come within a few feet of me. When I say, "let's go" if he doesn't, he gets a pull and I mean now. (and I don't mean that I rip his head off) Then it's praise/treats. It doesn't mean he has to heel, but come along close to me. He's not proofed yet all the way off leash, but getting pretty good when we practice.

But I think that's wonderful.....the training of gun dogs. I admire that a lot. Bonnie's (my Lab)  Mom was super to watch in action...absolutely fabulous fun to watch! And she had soooooo much fun doing it. What exuberance! Do you hunt with your dogs? Do you show them?

I am enjoying this Doberman....not the dead serious dog that they portray....nooooo.....absolute sense of humor and a major goofball...very, very ready to play and ready to learn. He looks at me right in the eye and is just begging for me to give him a job. You can see the wheels turning in this dog's head. And he picks up my meaning right away. When we are specifically training, he is super. With regular puppy behavior, well.....he thinks he should have his own life style. So, we have a way to go. But at the same time I want to let him be a puppy too. I want him to be jaunty when we "work" and not have it be a drudgery. So, there's lots of silly business inbetween chores. LOL.

I enjoyed hearing about your Labs and your philosophy. I'd love to know more of your methods if you care to get into it. Perhaps you would rather not here, which I would understand.

Carrie

One must ask themselves why you would want to use a pinch collar when they are in the process of being banned in the U.K and are already banned here in Australia,doesnt that say anything to the person who wants to use it??

christine

Pinch collars are no longer on the approved list of equipment for any police force in the UK; one can only hope that this will be followed in civilian life!

Carrie,
Yes I take my dogs shooting (hunting as you say in the States). Mainly picking up on driven shoots with a bit of competetive working tests and field trials. Unfortunately work gets in the way of working and competing them as often as I would like!

My methods are nothing special, basically standard 'British style' gundog training as detailed in books by Peter Moxon, Keith Erlandson, Martin Deeley etc, a few gundog training videos and some self taught techniques picked up along the way!

It works for me, I've found that with my own labradors I can use a fairly standard pattern of training with minor modifications for each dog. I've handled lots of other peoples dogs (mainly pets & some recalcitrant gundogs of lots of different breeds) and they nearly all teach me something new. I would use whatever seemed the most appropriate technique at the time for these! I really try and avoid telling other people how to train dogs unless really specifically asked as what works for me doesn't always help someone else.

I'm looking for absolute obedience, steadiness & calmness under extreme temptation, so the way I approach things may not suit most "just looking for a reasonably well behaved pet" type people. I dont use electric collars, 'force-retrieving', pinch collars etc. I dont need choke chains for my dogs as I am selecting for high trainability and preventing lunging & pulling from developing. I would use one to correct an older dog, as I know how effective they can be, but don't recommend them as most people just cant get the knack of using them.

I use a combination of positive and negative stimulus. Very rarely treats (just not required with a well bred lab) usually just verbal praise or stroking. I dont think I am particularly hard on dogs & certainly not violent, but I like them to work for me rather than food (if at all possible) and to know when I am happy and when I am not. If i wanted to teach 'tricks' and a lot of the competitive obedience I would focus more on 'clicker' type techniques. However I'm happy with my methods for steadiness and control under temptation.

I must admit I'm not keen on the sound of the pinch collars, but I usually like to withold judgement until I have seen a method used by a skilled practioner set against the circumstances & temperament of the dog. Unlikely in this case as I dont know of anyone that uses one.

Thanks for your interest.

Hsin-Yi
This really isnt my field as I dont usually allow my dogs to interact with others on the lead, and dont really let them play with strange dogs. Doesnt mean there not socialised as they see plenty of strange dogs when training and working, but I'd really rather they ignored them as much as possible. They're still happy to be packed in the back of a landrover with strange dogs without a cross-word! However, I'm dealing with labradors not guarding / working breeds.

I can really undertsand you wanting to give your dog as much stimulation as possible given your restriction on free running. Do you really not have anywhere locally to let your dog have a run? That must be a pain for you and your dog!

I guess in the absence of anyone else giving you some tips, I would use the same aproach that you use when you dont want her to go over to the other dog. i.e a firm "leave it", a check on the lead and walk away. Get a friend with a dog (preferably very calm) to stand still. And keep trying this repeatedly (in one lesson) until you can get close to the other dog without yours lunging. Sooner or later your dog will realise that you just wont let her lunge at the other dog and will give up trying. Plenty of praise when she is calm. If your dog is tuned in to your voice for positive and negative reinforcement, the tone of your "leave it" should let the dog know when you are not happy as a precursor to being checked and moved away. Praise when she is calm and not pulling. She will therefore start to 'suss out' what is and is not acceptable.

When you can get a short distance from the other dog without her pulling,  get her to sit. This is just putting in another step of control before allowing her freedom. When you are happy, give her a release command allowing her to greet the other dog. Please bear in mind that i'm over 6 foot and 'big enough' (LOL) also for some reason most dogs just dont seem to 'mess me about' without me having to do very much at all (either positive or negative)

You could try the same technique whilst the dog is playing. Once she starts to get too rough do exactly the same. Correct her, move away and take control. Hopefully she'd learn that 'too rough' equals game over! You can keep repeating this, but it could get a bit 'emotional' for the stooge dog. If i was doing it I would expect success in stopping the pulling up to the other dog in one lesson but couldnt guess how long the rough play would take (if ever!). I wouldn't guarantee you'll get instant success because I can very rarely show someone else how to get the same result that i do with their dog! Please dont think I am anything special at training, I just use methods that work for me, and most dogs just dont 'try it on with me' anyway.

I would guess that a positive only technique would be to do similar to the above without the 'check' and the verbal 'leave' and would include bits of sausage or cheese! (LOL) I wouldnt criticize other methods at all, I just do what I have found works quickly and still keeps the dog happy.

We come to a stalement over checking the dog. I wouldn't use my method with a halti but I also wouldn't want to use a choke chain or slip lead where the dog has as much freedom on the lead as you allow (this is where the potential choking comes in, and you would have to use too much force to check the dog)

Unfortunately there are just no guarantees when strange dogs meet up. Most get on OK but even the sweetest dog can 'kick off' for no obvious reason. (Just look at all the posts on these boards about friendly dogs suddenly having a set-to with another dog) Lead to lead is really just not a natural way for dogs to meet, and neither are significant size and temperamental breed differences. For example wolves are roughly equivalent in size to each other, are less playful during adulthood and already have a clearly defined hierachy within the pack. When they meet with a stranger, a playful game would be unlikely!

Dogs are not wolves, and domestication has ironed out many of these issues but it still not a situation that all can cope with! Not always their fault, in your case the other dogs are probably just finding it difficult to cope with your dogs size. not their fault either, just nature!

Hope the above helps, not easy to explain in writing & will probaly give you more questions than answers. Unfortunately you are too far away for me to show you!

Thank you, Havoc, for taking the time to explain things to me. I know different methods work for different people but it really helps to have some guidance, especially for first-time owners like myself who are not dealing with an "easy" breed. I will certainly keep your methods in mind, try them and adapt them. I will let you know how we get on!

"I can really undertsand you wanting to give your dog as much stimulation as possible given your restriction on free running. Do you really not have anywhere locally to let your dog have a run? "

Actually, there ARE designated dog off-leash areas around us and I have taken her there but I never dare let her off leash for a proper run because I don't trust her recall. It has been reliable every time I have called her so far (like on a long extending leash) but they say that - especially while they are still puppies and during this adolescent challenging stage - you mustn't ever give them one chance of ignoring the "come" command, otherwise, you've had it! So I don't want to test her until she is much older and has it ingrained in her brain, so to speak, that she always has to come. Also, the chance of us meeting another dog in these off-leash areas is very high and with her current behaviour towards them, I am even more hesitant to let her off (although funnily enough, if they are both off-leash, then it seems to be OK - see below). I'm worried that she'll go up and try to play and the other dog will attack and there will be a dog-fight before I can reach her to pull her away. She has never snapped or even really growled at another dog - all her overtures seem to be playful, albeit dominant playful, but I worry that she might change and snap back and then there might be a vicious dog fight.
Unfortunately, we don't have any fenced paddocks or anything like that that I could take her to.

The only time I have left her off-leash is when we sometimes meet a nice, friendly, larger dog on the beach or in the off-leash parks, who seems happy to play with her - and if the other owner is happy, I will let her off to run around and play with the other dog. I find that in those situations, there is never any problem - they just run around each other and play and it's great exercise for her. She doesn't do much mounting then - just chases the other dog but when she catches up with them, she stands and looks like she doesn't know what to do! :) Most other dogs, especially smaller ones, can outmaneouver and outrun her - she is very clumsy and uncoordinated - so when they are both off-leash, it is much more of a fair contest. The problems always seem to come when we meet dogs on-leash. You're right - it's probably a really unnatural way for dogs to meet and that's why there are problems.
(Incidentally, her recall has been very good so far when she is off-leash and playing with other dogs - she still comes when called. But I don't dare test her too much! All I need is one time of ignoring me and then she might start doing it all the time!)

But anyway, thanks again and I will let you know how we get on -
Hsin-Yi

Your welcome.
If you're determined enough & really willing to try (which it sounds you are) you will 'find a way' ;-)
Best of luck!