I have to agree with you Jackie . I also think another mistake on the part of exhibitors is some judges like different types of heads or colours etc .I have not entered under some judges because I know they would not like my dogs.
I noticed at the last show that the judge put up mostly brindles , and found out later she had all brindles , so I wasted my time entering , but if I ever have a brindle I will be looking for her to enter under, because I know she likes them. I know some collie judges prefer heavy heads and some prefer finer heads. when I was showing collies I tried to go under the judges that liked my breed.
As regards some of those that seem to be winning all the time. well they have excellent dogs and no matter how much they win no judge is going to say im not giving it to that dog this week because he got it last week . Thats not the way it is done . it is because there was nothing better to beat him again this week.
New faces . true they have to be there for awhile to win but I think it is because they dont know how to get the best out of their dog being a novice . and lets face it sometimes newcomers just dont have a good enough dog to win. but not having enough knowledge to know that ,they think they have been hard done by.
I do know there are some facey judges that is true but only some. mari

Well done jackie, mine still is the most awful fidget re teeth!

Oh! if only you knew the truth of the matter, "TEETH" with mine it's the whole package, only the fittest of judges who are able to follow him around in circles are able to assess him at all. I allways feel ill with motion sickness by the time I come to move him. Thanks for your congratulating but I'm not to sure that he did not win by defult - but then you are allways harder on your own, supose it is because you see their faults and good points every day. If I've got the courage to make an exibition of myself you will see what I meen at the club show. :O Jackie :O

Hi Natasha

If what you say is true, then a relatively new exhibitor will never win with their dog but you must know that's not true - I can give you quite a long list of Cocker people who achieved success within a relatively short space of time (you do have a Cocker, yes?) but the key thing for them was that they were lucky enough to own a really good dog plus they mastered the art of trimming & handling to a high standard. We have all agreed that facey judges exist but not to the extent that you suggest. In Cockers, there are a lot of good dogs being shown at Champ shows & yes, many of them are owned by well-known exhibitors. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe they win because their dogs are good? All these well-known people originally started as novice exhibitors you know - they weren't born as "faces" :-) They became successful for a reason - they owned & showed good Cockers. When we first started in Cockers, our first dogs did absolutely nothing at Championship show level - it would have been so easy to blame this lack of success on "facey" judges but the truth was, our dogs were not good enough to win at this level (nor was my trimming :-) ) However, with a lot of hard work & objective study of what we needed to improve on, we did start to breed Cockers that could win at Championship shows & beat the "faces". If we had stuck to the kind of negative attitude so many of you newer people seem to have, we would never have got anywhere & I doubt we'd still be showing now!

Jane

Thank you for your comments. Maybe "facey" was the wrong word to use!!

I am speaking not only from my own experience but on behalf of people I know that have been showing for over 20 years in the UK and are successfull breeders and also friends over here in the Channel Islands. I am quite aware that they might go for different colour's or different head types.

I am not commenting on the fact that because the exhibiter and judge are chatting and laughing that the show is fixed, or that they know each other very well. All I am saying is that the judges are supposed to be judging on the "breed standard" and when you can clearly see that this is not happening, you wonder why.

A friend of mine went to the Gundog champ show in Wales last year, the cocker that got 1st was half owned by the judge!! The dog should not have been shown under that judge in the first place.

But again thank you for all your comments and as a "newcomer" they have been taken on board!!!

IF the dog was half owned by the judge then it is your duty to report it to the Kennel Club, and if you don't you are far far worse than a judge that may have the temerity to view the standard somewhat different to the way you or your friends do, may be their years of experiance have made them complacent - they probable feel they know what they are looking for perhaps you should question their decisions and find out what makes an experianced judge tick and make them realise that they are wong and should recheck the standard. JH

Unless, of course, it was a replacement judge. JH

Natasha

I went to the Gundog of Wales Champ show last year & no Cocker was placed first that had any connection with the judge. I think your friend must have been mistaken - so often "gossip" is passed around & is taken as truth when it is nothing near the truth. You may be thinking of another show where the Dog CC was owned by someone who does have a dog in partnership with the judge (but it was NOT the dog owned in partnership that won that day) It would not be possible for a dog owned in partnership with the judge to be shown under that judge - it just didn't happen, sorry. The dog that won has no connection with the judge either in respect of it's breeding or it's ownership. Sure you can argue that the exhibitor has a connection with the judge but the judge concerned is highly respected & why shouldn't he give this dog the top award if he believed it was the best one there? If he had decided not to do this because of fears of what the gossips would say, then that would be making a decision based on factors other than the dog's merits, which is what you have been saying judges shouldn't do, isn't it?

Jane

I just wish there were more judges who were honest. Before entering a show I have been warned numerous times by people who are considered to be a 'face' that the judge may well be facey. I take my chances but have yet to get a good placing under that said judge.

I have spoken to 'faces' who have admitted that there have been occassions where they got a good placing and really didn't deserve it but the judge was being facey. That's coming straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

I've also heard of newcomers getting a good place and a 'face' not so good a place all under the same judge, the 'face' then heard to be saying how the judge is inexperienced even though they have been in the breed for many years and judged at numerous Champ shows I'm not talking about one individual here, I'm talking about a number of well known faces coming out with these comments and not necessarily in my breed either. So if all the well known faces of different breeds would like us newcomers to believe that the majority of judging isn't facey and that it really does all swing in roundabouts then they could start by setting us a good example. Imagine how the newcomer feels who's got the good placing when they hear a 'face' talking about the judge in such a way :-(

Jane, Jackie and Mari you all sound like you would be honest so if I'm on the look out for a judge I'll be sure to track you down and NO I wouldn't be doing this just so you can give me a good placing......LOL......that would be defeating the object wouldn't it :D

Claire B

Thank YOU for your comments !!!

Hi Claire

I'm not too sure what point you are trying to make? Sure some well-known "faces" get a touch of the sour grapes when they get beaten & may make adverse comments about the judging - that's human nature, some people take defeat sportingly & others don't. You aren't going to change human nature - some judges are facey, many are not, just as some exhibitors will make unpleasant comments when beaten but most will just smile graciously (even if they are gritting their teeth at the same time :-) ) That's life - people aren't perfect aren't they?
I do think new exhibitors today expect a lot more than when I first started showing in the mid-80's. We were in awe of the top exhibitors & their dogs, we sat at the ringside studying the dogs, we learnt as much as we could at the show, then went home & studied pedigrees & photos of winning dogs. We never expected to win straight away & were pathetically grateful for any place we got :-) Nowadays, it's common to hear new exhibitors sneering about the top dogs, never taking the time to look at why these dogs are so good but instead gossiping about how that dog won such & such because of some spurious connection with the judge. I'm not having a go at you Claire - it's just something I find very depressing about the current show scene - there doesn't seem to be the same thirst for knowledge that we had to begin with & people now seem to want instant success without having to go through the learning process (not you personally!) Well, that's all I'll say on the subject :-)

Jane

I think Jane is dead right. As Jane knows, I am very new to showing myself we are in the same breed. I have spent ages at shows looking at the other dogs etc trying to be objective. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed Crufts so much - I didn't have the boys to worry about and could spend time just looking and learning. One of the best days I ever had was at Leeds Champ last year. Buddy was just 12 weeks old and I hadn't even shown Jasper yet. It was Leeds that convinced me I could. The state some of the dogs were presented in, I knew I could do better - but then I look back at the photos of the winners and still think, I'll never get my boys to look like that.

I have been very lucky with my boys. Not won an real top honours yet, but we are doing steadily well and I'm keeping fingers crossed - lol. I was lucky to get my first boy from good breeding and to have a chance. I had all my friends at Cockers-UK giving me help and encouragement and then have also been lucky to be under some really nice judges who handled the dogs really nicely. I've never come across a brusque jidges as far as the dogs were concerned. I had a lovely chat to the Judge after Keighley show the other weekend and we had a lovely vhat about allsorts not specifically about my boys. We "judged" the best in Breed together so to speak and I learned a lot from her.

I am biased towards my boys - but I can tell when they were beaten fair and square but am still learning so much about what makes a good dog. I have seen others placed above them and wondered why, but that's what showing is about some you win some you lose. If you are consistently not being placed then I think you need to look closely at either your handling abilities and/or the quality of your dog. If you are being consistently placed then you clearly have something worth continuing with. At the end of the day if you can't take losing - don't do it.

I think the thing that does make it hard though are the minority of experienced exhibitors who won't pass the time of day with you. I now know who they are and don't give them the time of day - lol. Mainly I have found people in our breed to be very friendly and approachable. It has amazed me the number of people who have come to look me up and say hello at shows. I have made lots of friends and I guess if you can't do that then it must all seem very paroquial.

Personally, I am glad I got into showing. Some days I wonder why - but others I know why. I'll certainly be sticking at it a bit longer and am already looking forward to getting number three in a couple of years. I'm gonna have a much better idea of what to look for and who to ask to help me:D

best wishes

Pam n the boys
PS Jane, are you at Scotland on Saturday?

Hi Pam

Some things don't change - there were people who wouldn't speak to us when we started too but mostly the natives were friendly :-) I think you're doing great with your boys by the way! When we started, I seem to remember the best we won was a 2nd place in a variety class plus a few VHCs in breed classes at open shows - I've still got the card we got given for that first 2nd place in our "memory box". Qualifying for Crufts was a distant dream in those days & we didn't achieve this for several years but the thrill when we did was immense! We often used to go to Champ shows without our dogs - you're right, you get much more time to watch & learn than you do when you have to look after your own dogs. You're also right about the presentation aspect - in a numerically popular breed like Cockers, you have got to show your dog looking it's best haven't you? I have judged dogs badly in need of a bath & with mats in their coats - the owners of these dogs no doubt blame "facey" judging when they don't win :-)

Good luck in Scotland! (we won't be there unfortunately)

Jane

I realise human nature comes into play a lot here, I guess what I'm saying is that when us newcomers do get a good placing and you hear a 'face' being pretty negative about the judge just because they weren't happy with their placing it makes you feel like either way you can't win eg. you get a good place, you are chuft to bits, there's a good chance 'faces' will take notice of your dog because of it's placing and then a well known breeder/exhibitor knocks the wind out of your sails with their negativity :-( So the week you get a good placing you win with the judge but not the experienced people and the week the experienced people get a good place and you don't they are full of positive feedback on how well you handled your dog anyway

You could be right that new exhibitors expect a lot more, as a new exhibitor I wouldn't know, I'm just happy when my dog behaves :rolleyes: a placing is just an added bonus, however I do know that certainly in my breed back in the 80's it was a lot easier to get good placings, it wasn't unusual to have a young dog be made up to Sh Ch or gain a couple of CC's whilst still a pup. Chances of that now are very slim.

I would imagine some new exhibitors do sneer at the top dogs, that's not nice however I'd bet money on it that us new folk get talked about just as much by the experienced lot. Like Pammy says there are some experienced exhibitors who won't pass the time of day with you, of course new folk should use this as a learning curve but it does make things hard. Some new folk I imagine think they can waltz into the ring and win but not everyone thinks like that, me included, I work damn hard training my dog, listening to folks advice and practice like hell both at home, ringcraft and prior to going into the ring. Sometimes my hard work is rewarded, sometimes not but I accept that with no problems.

I love showing and have no intention of stopping, I accept that some judges will be facey, they may be in the minority but I just wish they were ALL honest. I realise that is probably highly unlikely. Compared to some new exhibitors I consider myself very lucky with the placing's I have had having qualified for Crufts twice now, can't ask much more than that :-)

Jane I realise you are not getting at me personally but just giving your very valued opinion. Pammy I am assuming you are doing the same. :-) I think what we are seeing here is the 2 different views that are available from the experienced person and the newcomer. I for one have found it very informative, food for thought as they say :-)

>>however I do know that certainly in my breed back in the 80's it was a lot easier to get good placings, it wasn't unusual to have a young dog be made up to Sh Ch or gain a couple of CC's whilst still a pup. Chances of that now are very slim.

Claire, think of how many weimar's there were in the 80's compared to today ;-)

That's what I mean't Leigh, there weren't so many weims about therefore the placings may have been slightly easier to get?? The general mood around the ring was probably not quite as tense as it is today and so no need to worry about facey judges, and inexperienced people bad mouthing the experienced people and vice versa.

My opinion of the 80's is that the inexperienced people probably didn't expect quite so much because there wasn't the huge amount of competition that there is today. We see a lot of the same people getting placed, of course a lot of the time this is down to their experience and excellent exhibit. :-)

Of course I could be totally wrong cos in the 80's I was still in junior school..........BRAG BRAG ;-)

That takes me back. when I got my Belgian, I bought books and stuck flags on all the pages that had pictures of her ancestors. when I got my oldest elkhound I did the same getting back issues of our breed club yearbooks back for 15 years. I now have most of them from the mid 50s onward!!! :D I have also spent time looking at a friends complete set from 1923 when the first National British Club was formed!

Hi Jane & Pam

I do agree with you (to a certain extent!!) I think everyone in the showing "world" feels strongly about this, one way or another. Please don't think that I have just come into showing and expect to win!!

I was on the sidelines for a good few years before I actually started showing and have got books and videos and spoken with many a different people to try and learn as much as I could about my breed and trimming etc, and I finally feel that I am coming on in the show ring...as I didn't want to come into it knowing nothing at all.

Like Claire, I work really hard going to ringcraft once a week and training in the evenings etc. My older dog doesn't get anywhere in any shows, the best she did was qualifying for crufts in 2000 as a puppy, but then again she wasn't bought as a show dog, so she has her faults. My new puppy has won her classes both times I have shown her, so I do accept defeat when it happens. I am chuffed to bits that I now have a puppy good enough to win, and that I came out with a trophy too as it happens so rarely for me!!

I was just trying to voice an opinion, Im sorry if it upset a few people on the way!!

Natasha

Natasha I'm sure you haven't upset anyone :-)

We're just seeing both sides of the coin here. I can imagine that if I were a judge and had been on the show scene for some time and were honest then I would most certainly feel the need to "battle my corner" so to speak but at the same time everyone who has contributed to this thread has infact admitted that although in the minority there are some judges that are facey. I guess it just depends on your breed, the shows you attend and you could have a run of 2 or 3 shows in a row that have facey judges but then have honest judges for the next 20 shows.

I also understand that of course the people who have been showing for yonks are more experienced and can make to a certain extent a bad dog look good whereas the likes of me probably does a very good job of making a good dog look bad :rolleyes:

I'm sure no one has taken any offence to anything in this thread. Maybe in years to come when we're more experienced we will be able to look back and see why we thought the way we did because it is ded easy for experienced people to say they were once novices but we didn't know them 20 odd years ago so only have their word for it. :-) One thing I will make sure of is that when I do become more experienced and recognised I certainly won't be ignoring the new folk and if I ever decide to judge I will be making a point of looking at the dog and not the person handling it. And anyone can hold me to that ;-)

You haven't upset anyone Natasha - we've all been having a pretty good discussion I thought :-)

Jane

Thank you Jane !!!

N