Hi Claire,please go to www.healthy-paws.ca & then click on " interesting reading "
& then click on picture for "review on vaccines".It says more than I ever could but gives you the facts.I have spoken to these people & can verify that what they are saying on there, they have told me the same.
Christine.

Hi Christine, that addy didn't work for me, it is correct?

It worked OK for me WL!

Yes Claire, tried it just before & it didnt, so tried it again & it did!
Christine

Catherine O'Driscoll has been involved with this for quite a few years now. I can remember reading articles written by her around 10 years ago and whilst most of us can come up with horror stories about vaccines I do feel we need to be careful not the throw the baby out with the bath water. As an example, when Parvo first cropped its head up so many puppies (and older dogs) died it was devastating! Whilst there is no doubt in my mind that some dogs have reacted badly, and some even died, as a result of vaccines rather more have been saved.

Regards, John

John I agree. I am not willing to stop vaccinations protecting mine form parvo or distemper either, though I have worried about one of them spiking a reaction . so far so good . It would break my heart to lose one to vaccine . but it would still break my heart to lose one to the decease . So as I have not lost a dog from the vaccines I will take that avenue untill we are offered a safer way lol Mari

Well John, if most of you can come up with "horror stories" about vaccines then surely that proves the point that vaccines are not as safe as they are made out to be? Catherine O`Driscoll isn`t the only one writing about it. What about Dr Jean Dodds & several universities, the new information coming out now, that it is unnecesary to keep having dogs vac. every year? Also the opinions of the majority of homoeopthic vets, too numerous to mention? The vaccine was the direct cause of the diseases in my pups. After what I saw I would rather take my chances without the vaccine & I repect everybody elses opinion who wants to vaccinate.
What I do object to is having to go & LOOK for informtion on what CAN & DOES go wrong when you vac. This info should be widely & freely available to us all but it is not & we have a right to know ALL aspects of vaccination. Vets & manufacturers have a moral & ethical duty to us, to provide us with all this info
I disagree with you on "some dogs" being affected or dying. I have the personal experience of EIGHT dogs having major reactions & ONE death & that is far too many for me.
As for "rather more being saved by vaccines",maybe, but how many more are being left with seriously damaged immune systems & other debilitating illnesses caused by these vaccines.

I agree with you that EIGHT dogs having major reactions & ONE death is far too many but I'm afraid I'd still go for the vacinnations.

Until safe tested alternatives are available to the general public the injections have to be given. At least that way I've done my best to protect my dogs and anything that happens after that is out of my control.

Fiona

Hi Fiona thats what I THOUGHT I was doing when I vac mine. Doing my best for them & protecting them. How wrong I was.I am sorry that I dont have much personal experience on alternatives but give me time & I will have.There must be a few people out there who are using them tho & who could speak on their ability to protect.I owe it to my dogs to use the safer alternatives & the control is in my hands not the vets or drug manufacturers.
Christine. PS,sorry I forgot to sign my last post.

I thik the main problem with vaccinations is their over use i.e. boostered every year. I have never booster my dogs every year and have, thus far, never had a reaction. I've always worked ont he basis that I dont get vaccinated every year so why should my dogs?

Hi Bec, coudnt agree more. Who is responsible for us believing that it was necessary to have our dogs vaccinated to death in the first place tho?
Christine.

Who else but the manufacturers of these products!
I'm not satisfied that homeopathic remedies actually proved the same (if any) protection as vaccines. Until research is done on generations of dogs that have never been vaccinated and their entibody levels are proven to be equal to those of vaccinated dogs then I'm sorry I will stick to vaccinations. My personal belief is that dogs being vaccinated homeopathically are protected because the majority of dogs are vaccinated conventionally.

Yes, aided & abetted by vets .But Bec they are not even doing research on generations of vaccinated dogs so what chance of them doing research on unscientific methods? At least the homoaopathic vets are doing research into nosodes.It is a fact that the first puppy vaccine can & does cancel out antibodies passed on to pups from their dam leaving them unprotected till the next one,usually 4wks later.
Christine.

Bec, I think you may have a point. When I was a Veterinary Nurse some 30mmmm cough, cough .. years ago, I was told even in those days that puppy vaccinations were necessary but boosters were "Vet's pocket money!" so I used to do the same as you.
Like you, I groom for a living. In 1996 I lost 12 dogs in the parlour directly after vaccination or boosters. That year I also went to a seminar with a Vet from one of the big vaccine manufacturers (the one I used to use!) and Chris Day, the homeopathic Vet. Having listened to them both talk to each other for a couple of hours, with respect but coming from different directions, I've not had any of my dogs or puppies vaccinated since. I use nosodes. I agree that there isn't any scientific backup for the nosodes, but the conventional Vet told us that 2 out of 5 vaccines didn't work because of the dogs previous/maternal/natural immunity. He also said that there are so many strains of the various diseases and vaccines only cover the most common. A bit like the 'flu jab! I'm sure that our Vets advise with the best of intentions, but where do they get their information from - yes, of course, the drug manufacturers. The only real option is to have the titre levels tested but I choose not to go down that path because I don't do to Vets unnecessarily. I feel it's a bit like going to the Doctor's waiting room - you go with an ingrowing toenail and come out with 'flu!
My understanding is that nosodes work in a similar way to conventional vaccinations, giving a little of the disease to build up an immunity, but it gives a much smaller quantity and is given over a longer period, to build up the immunity in a more natural way.
Already this year I've lost a Cavalier in the parlour at 14 months old. Started OK. Well bred puppy from quality stock. She was poorly 24 hours after her first vaccination, and very ill 5 days later. Although she wasn't well, her Vet have her 2nd jab in two weeks. She was sickly for all of her short life. She had every infection imaginable and recurring demodectic mange, as has been mentioned in another post today, due to her inefficient immune system. She was sent to the RVC who referred her to Chris Day.
It was one of the most difficult decisions that I've made. It's true that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, but I'm comfortable with my decision now.

Hi Val nice to hear from someone with experience of nosodes. How long have you been using them? I have small boarding kennels & its the norm rather than the exception to get a healthy dog, & it seems most of the problems started just after these dogs were vaccinated.One thing that does seem to help tho is if they go on a natural diet.
Christine

I have been using them since 1996 Christine and the more the subject is discussed, the more people I find are using them. In my breed, Rough Collies, I would think that about half of my exhibitor acquaintences are choosing nosodes.
I would never suggest that others follow my lead. In fact my puppy information booklet tells new puppy owners to be guided by their Vet, but for those who ask, then I tell them what I do and suggest that they research and learn for themselves.
I consider it irresponsible to do nothing and not to protect your dogs, but it's a matter of choice, after hopefully spending time learning from a growing number of Veterinary Surgeons who appear to be changing sides, to decide to follow a different path.

Thats a few years then isnt it Val.The thing is I took the vets word as gospel, you know, vac at such an age, booster at such a month etc. I just cant believe how naive I was. Ive learnt so much since, but I am so angry that I was led to believe vac are foolproof & give 100% protection, when in fact they do not.It was only when things went wrong that the manufacturers said read the small print!! Also like you say there are more changing sides every day & I know instinctively I`m going the right way for my dogs.I dont know anyone yet(except on line),but probably if I talk more about it I will.I certainly am not going any further down the other path.
Christine.

The manufacturers are well covered Christine. I've also worked for a pharmaceutical company in my (too) many years! :rolleyes: They are quite right when they say "read the small print". All the possible side effects and contra indications are clearly stated. But how many owners, even those who think that they have a good relationship with their Vet, have actually read the leaflet in any of the vaccines or drugs that have been given to their animals?
The work that I do means that I come into contact with 25-30 dogs each week, as opposed to just keeping a few dogs myself. So it's quite a big picture that I've based my decision on, as well as listening to and questioning Vets on different sides of the fence, which is why, after much soul searching, I am now comfortable with my conclusion. But we all have to find our own way and do what we think is best.
If Vets were to stop vaccinating, and I'm not advocating that you understand because I'm quite happy for others to have a choice too, or they were paid for their results rather than whatever the outcome, then there wouldn't be many left in business!! Medical/veterinary science is changing all the time and opinions are always given "in the light of current knowledge"! Tomorrow it may be different.
What an interesting topic this is. How nice to read other differing opinions. ;)

Val I didnt even know there was small print,trusted them completely.Till this happened,now I know better.But lots of other people are still not aware & I feel the drug companies are taking us for a ride.It is interesting tho & maybe someone might just ask the vet for the small print next time!Wouldnt that be a laugh..
Christine

Most people do Christine. And I'm sure that most Vets treat the animals in their care with the very best of intentions. A few years ago, you couldn't get a solicitor to take a case against a Vet or boarding kennel who was negligent. But with the new "let's all claim compensation attitude" that's prevalent these days, I'm sure that things will change.

I hopr they change for the better Val. I wouldnt like to see lots of litigation cases tho as I dont think that would benefit anyone(only the lawyers)The majority of my boarders owners dont have a clue regards vacs & medications tho, honestly! You are right in that the majority of vets treat the animals with the very best of intentions. Mind you,my mum has a saying, something along the lines of " the road to hell is paved with good intentions" & if I could do those smileys I would put them on now......winking & grinning the lot.
Christine

I know someone who uses homeopathic vaccines. She lost her 7 month old puppy Rottie to it, and the sister was staying at a friends at the time (in season), then the mother went down with it and recovered. The sister came back home after a few weeks and was kept away from the ground Mum used, and from Mum. After a months they were put back topgether and using the same ground (garden) the sister then go Parvo and died at 10 months, but amazingly the owner still beleives the nosodes protected Mum. she won't accept that Mum probably survived because she was older!

this all happened at the tail end of last year and start of this!

The advice from Glasgow uni, is that parvo virus can remain in the enviroment for up to a year & its best not to any dogs under 1yr of age in the area.
Christine

At the risk of boring everybody by repeating myself, I have antibody titres done, and the level of immunity has been excellent with no re-vaccinations after the puppy ones. Lepto is a different ball-game, though, because with a vaccination even, the immunity may not last longer than 3 months. A difficult one that I'm not sure of the answer to. I've used nosodes in the past to help, but I don't know really if even those are effective.

They don't do an antibody titre for Lepto at Glasgow (where the others are sent to)

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo, Glasgow is where my pups were done & I will always have my dogs titred in the future. What happens when the results come back & the pups have no antibodies to anything after having their first puppy vac & also having parvo after that first vac.Parvo is the only thing they had immunity to.And no you arent boring me.
Christine

I know someone who lost her pup not because 1st vaccine had wiped out mothers antibodies but because mum had only ever had nosdoses so she passed no immunity onto pups.So its a case of da**** if you do and same if you don't a very hard decision either way.Gillian

Hi Satincollie, talk about a rock & a hard place! But dont you all agree that the drug manufacturers & vets have a duty to us who PAY vast amounts of money to them & keep them in business,to do more research & give out ALL information so we can make informed choices.

that is so true Bec re vaccinations I only do the course , and i wont consider it again untill a bitch is going to be mated and that is not for the bitch it is for the the puppies that may come . I wish I could find the literature I had re that same subject when everyon was saying get the dogs done every year. Like you I said we dont have to get the children done every year why would this suddenly be necessary for the dogs, unless there is another move for more money spinners. I have never lost a dog through vaccinations , I accept there are some cases when dogs react badly to them.I feel the risk of not getting them done outweighs the risks of doing them Mari

Hi Mari I had a bitch vac on the vets advice day before she was mated. At 3mths age 1 pup in pain & limping,before 1yr old had Ephyseal in 3 limbs. According to the experts its quite a rare disease & even rarer to have it in 3 limbs. After loads of questions found out it could be caused by the bitch having an infection in the uterus while in whelp that would have gone unnoticed OR the vaccine given so soon to being mated.
In my case I have to say the risk of vaccinating them far outweighs the risk of not.
Christine.

So sorry christine for your troubles truly. I am afraid though I can only go on my own instincts re the vaccinations, and I wish I knew if I am doing the right thing. I suppose we would all get degrees in hindsight , for now though I will have to do my own thing and hope I dont live to regret it. best wishes Mari

It's gonna be my New Years Resolution to get some hindsight. Wouldn't it be useful!! :D

When you have personally lost a young dog through a booster vaccination it can't help but change the way you think!!
I now only have the puppy vacs done and concentrate on a natural diet to keep my dogs healthy.
In the future I even doubt whether I would have the puppy vacs done... the alternative nosodes sound a much safer bet.

Hi Liz what happened toyour young dog? The way youre thinking is the way I`m going now. I dont have any other option.
Christine

The problem is that as things stand with most dogs vaccinated it is possibly safe for those who don't want to not to bother but what would happen if every one decided not to vaccinated?

I rest my case!

Regards, John

Well John,I hardly think its a case of not bothering do you ?I had 15 dogs vac in total on the day before the reaction started,but I do wish now that I hadnt BOTHERED. As for the opinion of the people vac making it safer for the ones who (as you put it) dont bother,it is a fact that vaccines shed into the enviroment. There for it could be said that unvaccinated dogs are put at risk that way. So just who is putting who at risk.
Christine

I think I've read enough of the horrors of parvo and distemper pre vaccine available to satisfy myself that not vaccinating is far riskier then vaccinating. If the dogs you lost all had the jab on the same day the chances were it was from the same batch was this not checked out with the manufacturers?

Bec they went down with parvo 4wks AFTER they were vac. They were due the 2nd puppy vac but were already incubating parvo. Thats my point! MERIAL, the manufacturers,have themselves covered, I bought the vac from the vet & as far as they are concerned,it left there depot in perfect condition.Vaccines have to be transported, kept & stored at a specific temp.& there responsability ended when it left them. Then if you dont like that & say they cant deny it was the vac. you get " it depends on every pups individual immune system,how they respond to the vac". Or "you could have brought it in" or "somebody else may have brought it in".Get the picture Bec... Anything except there vac was at fault.And that happened after one of the pups went down with Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis, 24hrs after the vac! Another RARE disease.He was the only one who died,couldn`t fight off 2 diseases.
Christine.

Your reply implies that you purchased the vaccine and vaccinated yourself. Is that correct? If so can you guarantee 100% that you stored the vaccines correctly? As John has said if we all stopped vaccinating then a lot more dogs will die. People who dont vaccinate should be grateful for the ones that do otherwise disease and death would be rife.

Bec ABSOLUTELY NOT. Where do I imply I gave them myself? The vet did them all.The vet who gave them actually stopped using MERIALS products as soon as the results came back.As I said earlier, I respect others opinion not to vac,& by the same token I expect my own opinions to be respected also.Ihave also NOT said everyone should stop vaccinating. Tell me why I should be grateful? All my dogs at the moment are vaccinated.
Christine

You stated you purchased the vaccines from your vet. I would have said my vet vaccinated all my dogs. If the problems are a severe as you have stated then this should have lead to a big investigation after all you said 8 of your dogs had problems. If it was only the one then yes I can see the manufacturers point of view but 8 needs to be well looked into a publicised.

Sorry Bec if I didnt explain it properly.Iwas speaking technically as I have been learning to do since dealing with the vet & manufacturers.They were even more severe than I have said. I have a detailed report of what happened & I asked admin could I send it as an attachment but its not allowed I was posting on here last year when things started to go wrong but then I lost my connection & have only got back on line a few wks ago.May I say a very big thanks to all who tried to help then.
I wish you could read it.There will not be an investigation as both Merial & the vet have walked away & that is what I am trying to do now, letting as many people know as poss.When things go wrong, tough!I did have a letter published in DW & OD last dec & this jan tho. What I am saying is fact,& thats why there is no reason not to publish it, they cant deny it.I could send it to you personally if you would like to read ittho.
Christine

I do know of one vet who used to offer both the nosodes and the ordinary vaccines, and used the nosodes on his own dogs, who has stopped offering the nosodes and has vaccinated his own dogs having lost several patients who had had the nosodes to one of the diseases (I think parvo but not sure), but hasn't lost any patients who had been vaccinated. This is all in the last year.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Is there a chance at all that the pups picked up the pavaro at the vets? What is the incubation period for Pavaro? Maybe your vet is just covering his A** by claiming it was the vacs. Just an alternate theory. I think it was the prior mentioned or a bad batch of vaccine. Vets offices are great places to pick up the diseases you are trying to avoid!

Hi BumbleB the vet came to my house & they were all done here.It would appear there could have been something wrong with the vac, but they will not even contemplate that idea.All I know is I had healthy pups & the day after they were vac one became ill,a few weeks later the others went down with parvo.
Christine

Christine, Maybe "Not Bothering" was not the word to use in your case but I still maintain that if everyone follows the example you appear in your post to be advocating then you will be in just as much trouble with Parvo and the like as the rest of us! Nothing in this world is perfect but this is the best we have. Sometimes it fails and in your case more than once but in most cases it saves lives whether you agree with that or not!

John

John, the only thing I am trying to do is make the manufacturers to put out ALL relative information, both FOR & AGAINST which I have mentioned several times.I would never presume to tell others what they should or shouldn`t do but I believe we all have the right to make informed & educated choices which we are unable to do without having access to such information
Christine.

Liz - I think that I will always get the puppy jabs done until someone convinces me otherwise, although I did have a nasty puppy reaction once. Reckon the benefits outweigh the risk.

BUT thereonafter - no, just titres to check on antibody levels as and when I feel fit. Definitely pre-mating, and plenty of time before that, so if you do still need a booster (not happened yet) you have plenty of time for the bitch to get over it.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Does anyone have info on whether viruses/bacilli may be shed into the environment after the use of nosodes - I really should like to know if possible, as I was considering using lepto nosodes, but don't want to take any risk with a potentially in whelp bitch at home .

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo I have been led to believe that they dont but think it best to check up.You could ask Ainsworth or any homoaopath vet.I have recently read an article but cant remember by who that adult dogs vac shed & its not a good idea to have them around a dam & pups.
Christine

Christine thanks for the link to the website. I've had a quick look but need to read it in more detail, however it does look very interesting. I'll come back and post later.

Sorry I've not come back here sooner but I've been off line for a week looking after my gran who has suffered a heart attack. Thankfully she is now recovering :-) Fingers crossed still.