Hello

Our male Dobe, Tag, is now 17 weeks old today and he is getting quite strong and is a quick mover, and also getting cheekier by the day.  We love him to bits and he gives us loads of laughs and some of his ways are quite endearing - however - when he has a mad half hour run around (which he does at least once a day) he can get very boistrous and seems to lose a bit of sense in his play nipping as gets a bit rougher and barks a bit harder.  The thing is he is not like that so much with my partner ie when my partner shows his dominance over Tag, by standing over him and saying a firm NO, Tag seems to jump backwards and barks back at him but calms down a bit, whereas with me in that situation he is more inclined to jump forwards and nip me trying to incite play, and seems to have more of a challenging bark towards me.  His actions are not what I would call aggressive in any way at all but he definitely treats me differently than my partner.

(I should also explain that my partner takes Tag to work with him each day, and so spends more time with Tag than I can, but we do share his walking, playing, feeding, grooming, training etc equally as far as possible but as my partner spends so much time with Tag he will obviously be the No.1 in the pack, and I think Tag is having trouble finding where I am in the pack - as my voice is not so authoratative as my partners either, even though I use the same actions and words - like I make sure I walk through doors first, win tug of war games virtually every time, eat first and initiate play times.  I have quite a few books at home on Dobes and puppies and have tried several things.

My questions are - has anyone else experienced this with a male Dobe and could let me know the best way to deal with showing my dominance over him?  Should I leave the room when Tag starts his mad half hour type behaviour (belting up and down the room/garden at full speed but play nips if you happen to be standing nearby)?  Or should I try to take authority in these situations?  Tag has plenty of toys and games to stimulate his mind and we even leave treats for him in toys so he has to work out how to get them and he has enough exercise for a pup of his age.  Is this normal and am I worrying over nothing?  It does upset me when I feel I can't connect properly with him as I do love him and feel I am doing something wrong, but at the same time would like to feel I can handle him better in these situations.  Any advice is greatly appreciated.   (Finally I should mention he has just started teething...!)

Thanks very much!

Mandy

PS.  We don't mind him playing at all by the way - even when he goes a bit mad :D, we just don't want his play nipping towards me to get any worse!

Forget dominance.  Trying to 'exert your authority' over him will cause you more problems than it will solve.  It is a good idea to teach him that you go through doors first.  It is good manners and from a safety point of view something that I always insist on with my dogs, although I don't always go through in front of them they do have to wait for my say so to go through.  However if a dog pushes past you or goes through a door first it has absolutely nothing to do with dominance, he just want to get to whatever is on the other side of the door.  Eating first - in the wild the adolescents would be allowed to eat first and if food is plentiful then everyone eats together, it is only in times of hardship would the weaker members of the pack have to wait for the scraps.

When your partner shows his dominance over Tag by standing over him and saying a firm NO he is teaching him by example how to be pushy to get what you want and there is every liklehood that Tag will start doing this to you.  I have come across several instances in my work of large powerful dogs that throw their weight around to get their own way and in every case they are very meek and mild in the presence of the male owner but unable to be controlled by the female. 
Sally

Hi Sally

Thanks very much for your reply and also for pointing out that exerting my authority is more important than dominanc of which I understand the difference in this case.  We always say to Tag to "wait" before we go through doors and he does about 8 times out 10 which is not bad for a growing puppy and he is improving all the time. 

It interests me when you mention that he is learning by example which is actually quite an obvious thing but something we had equally obviously overlooked.  Do you know any other good examples I can use to exert more authority on my part from your experience - and also how my partner could better react rather than to keep teaching Tag perhaps incorrectly things which are not helping the situation?  Thanks again!

Mandy 

Mandy, You don't need to exert your authority.  You should be looking to form a relationship with your dog that is based on mutual cooperation not competition.  You and your partner provide the food, toys, games, walks, attention etc and teach him what you require of him by using these things as rewards or payment for a job well done.  If he does something that you don't want him to then don't reward it and look at how you would be able to prevent him from doing it next time.  I will PM you a link to an article that my daughter wrote called 'Learn to earn'
Sally

Thanks.  Seems I've lost my way a bit in this situation - but I agree that prevention is better than cure in this case - I will try to avoid that situation occuring in future and try to anticipate a bit more beforehand.  I guess with having a large male dog I may have panicked a bit by trying too hard, when all I really want to do is enjoy having him .... the article would be very appreciated if you could send it to me.  Your comments have really made me think about it from a different angle!
Mandy

Hi Mandy,

I have an eight month old Dobe, male, blk/rust. Is this your first Doberman? I've read a lot and everything I read about a Doberman explains how very different they are from other breeds. I am finding that they are indeed different and need a firm, but fair kind of handling. They're so very sensative and yet have a mind of their own too. They need a lot of exercise to keep from getting bored. Don't let this biting continue. I say, "NO BITE!" And stop playing if he doesn't stop. I don't play roughly with my Dobe. It's just too easy for it to get out of hand. That is just not one of our games. Give him something else to play with. If he's getting that wild so easily, he probably needs more exercise. Are you working on obedience? If you take him for a walk and give him some commands he'll look up to you too, as his superior. Have him sit/wait for things you give him. And I would just cut out all rough housing. It just isn't a good idea with a Doberman. They get excited way too easily. I play tug with mine and let him win because it builds confidence. Some people think it promotes opposition. But in every day life here, there is no mistaking that I'm his "Mom." And there are rules he MUST go by. When Lyric was your pups age, he too was a holy terror and I found myself hollering at him a lot. That wasn't working, so I started really capitolizing on catching his good behavior and praising and rewarding with treats. Also, clicker training is excellent. The positive really made a difference. I think with a Doberman though, purely positive doesn't work. I think a combination is more effective. My use of negative is limited to my voice. And anytime I tell him no about something and he stops, right away, I reward and praise for his stopping an undesireable behavior to show him the difference. That has worked well. "NO BITE!" He stops, "GOOOOD NO BITE." That sort of thing. You do need to be in charge I think. Firmness, setting rules and insisting on them, consistancy, fairness, kindness, companionship and lots of training and socializing is the best thing I can tell you. Most Dobes are very treat motivated and that helps get things going.

On the exercise, you have to be careful not to over do it with these dog's bones. Long lasting, repititious forced gaiting is no good. But romping and some running where he can stop and sniff and change his pace is good. You can do shorter periods 2 or 3 times a day at his age.

Carrie

Hi Carrie

Thanks so much for your reply.  I read so much before having Tag - and yes, he's our first Dobermann (although both my OTH and I have experience of other dog breeds) and so we were very careful to have read as much as we could and went to visit several breeders for advice before we got him home, as we were aware of how Dobes are different.  Tag is black and rust too and he is indeed a sensitive fellow!  His play biting has really improved lots and occurs much less since he first came home and when he does nip he is quite gentle and we also say "no biting" if he starts and he then stops, but its just when he goes a little mad he gets carried away a bit more than normal.   I realise also from what you say that perhaps we do play a bit of rough and tumble more that we should perhaps with a Dobe and I will take this into consideration.  He does attend puppy classes and is well socialised with other dogs and people.  He is also fantastic with obedience like sit, down, stay etc which is great.  We sometimes do some obedience training with him if he has a lot of energy.  He has several short walks a day and we are conscious not to over-exercise him due to his bones developing etc and I often worry we walk him too much (even though we don't!) although I should perhaps take him on walks by myself a bit more rather than me and my partner taking him out which might help.  We try not to use any kind of negative things with Tag and divert him to other situations if we realise he is doing something we would prefer him not to and then reward him for being good if he responds well.  I agree a combination would be more effective and we have not tried clicker training yet, which is something we could do.  Its also comforting to know that other Dobes were like that at Tag's age so at least we know its not down to a situation we have created.  We will definitely try more gentle play games from now on I think too. 
Mandy

It sounds like you're doing everything right. I think the classes are wonderful. We've done obedience and are now doing agility which is a blast. Of course, the jumps are very low. But the socialization that comes with the group classes is invaluable.

I'm all for positive reinforcement primarily. And lots of experienced trainers go for that method 100%. I personally have seen that that doesn't work with a Dobe. They are about the most dominant creatures on earth. LOL. You cannot let them have their own way or you'll get into trouble down the road, but at the same time, we must be fair and kind, but firm.

I think it sounds like you know what you're doing. I sure hope I do. This is also my first Dobe. They usually recommend a female for first time Dobe owners. So, what do I do? Get a male. There are pluses to each.

I've had GSDs, Labs, mixes, and now 2 Chi's,  a Lab and the Dobe. Male Dobes are a handful aren't they. LOL.

Carrie

Hi mandy  I agree with not playing rough with dobes ,I would try and distract his mouthing on to a tugger rope and I can also recomend clicker training but only if hes a food loving dog .

Carrie
I think Ive had it easy with my male , he has been totally focused on me from day 1 and i think Ive done a really good job in training him as i havent had a problem with him at all .Its my bitch thats the hard work she is very easyly distracted and nosey . I do know she chooses to ignore me when she feels like it because she is very clever .I wanted a bitch first but it didnt happen that way , who knows what it would have been like that way round.

Ella.x.

I re-read part of my reply and it looks like I meant that positive doesn't work with Dobes. That's not what I meant. I meant that mostly positive I've discovered does work better, but 100% positive with no correction at all.......no. LOL.

It is good how your boy is well focused on you. Mine is much better now that he's gotten older. He was so fascinated with my other three dogs for quite a while, quite a pest. And I never had a puppy so into things....very, very busy. But he is doing well. I took him with me this a.m. for my errands, taking him out at the feed store to socialize and to the grocery store right outside the door. We practiced his long down/stay while people were going in and out with noisy baskets and those electric doors opening and closing. He didn't move, such a good boy. And then we stopped at the vets for some anti imflamatory stuff for my old Lab and a little social visit. Then came home for our run on the golf course. You should see those Chihuahuas. They keep right up with the big ones. LOL. So cute. They have a ball. Pretty soon, the golf course will be open and we will have to go to the beach or other hiking trails which are all around here. But every day we do about an hour of off leash rip roaring around. Oh my goodness....I'm rambling. Enough! LOL.

Carrie

I do envy you ,It sounds like your not too far away from the beach,for us it means a couple of hours drive to get to one.They will both paddle but neither will go and swim, does yours like water?

Zak is 2 and has always let Ebony walk all over him until last Saturday when he snapped at her for trying to take a ball off him I was glad he had told her off at last as i did feel for sorry for him being pestered by her.Hopefully she has learnt a lesson.

Ella.x.

All your dobies sound great and they are so much fun!  My male, Tag, is a delight to be around.  I too know we should have had a female first but did we listen?? NO!  Anyway Tag was good as gold last night and he is funny as he just loves watching me potter around in my kitchen.  He sits on the floor for ages while I bustling around while having such a knowing and interested look on his face.  He now weighs about 21 kilos and is still all legs, but growing by the day.  We call him a gazelle because he prances everywhere and jumps a lot. LOL!  I know I am biased but he is such a handsome dog too, so many people comment on his face and his markings and he is very striking (I know - must be a mothers love!!!)  Are your dobies very vocal??? Tag makes the funniest noises I've ever heard a dog make!  When I am upstairs in the house I do have to laugh at what I hear downstairs.  Whines, squeaks etc - its like he really is trying to talk to us!

Anyway its great hearing about other people who own dobes too as its nice to compare things.  Everyone's comments have been such a help too, as just when you think you have got it covered someone comes up with another angle or approach.  I think this Forum is great too so thanks again everyone!

Mandy

I don't understand why people think they should have a bitch first.  I find the males I have bred are much more laid back and calm as opposed to the bitches.  They are heavier, stronger and there is the risk of dog to dog aggression but you don't get the general madness that the bitches seem to exhibit.

Thats very interesting to hear you say that Keriok, as I could not really understand either why some people say its best to have a female first - but it was just something I had heard along the way, and by the sounds of it a lot of others have heard this too.  Not sure where that really comes from as I know all Dobermanns are bred for their temprement and all the ones I came in contact with before getting Tag were great - both male and female.  The main reason we chose to have a male is that they don't have a "season" - and thats it really.  Although both my partner and I have both had other females of different breeds before anyway.  I feel it should be a personal preference to the owner, thats why I wasn't worried about that at all when we got Tag.  I have to say though, I have seen dobermann websites that say they don't recommend having a male if you have not owned a dobermann before but it seems a little unfair to me (can't think of the websites off the top of my head, sorry).  I would recommend to anyone though to own a male dobermann as they are fabulous!!

I think there is one website that says they won't home to people that have not had one before but this is a bit of a catch 22 situation - how can you have one if you have not had one before ? :)

They were my thoughts about that too!!

I love talking about Dobermans. Tee hee hee. Love your stories too. Mine isn't very vocal. He only barks when there's something to bark about. (as opposed to my Chihuahuas. LOL)

The beach I mentioned that we play on is not the ocean, being in Idaho. It's a big lake way, way up north called Priest Lake....very pristine. (2nd cleanest lake in the U.S.) Anyhow, this is a resort area so it's really doggie heaven...lots of places to take the dogs.

I think the reason they say first time Dobe owners should have a female is that the males can be very, very dominant and if you're not a bossy kind of person, you may have trouble. LOL. But they say that like people, the females can be more moody, where as the males are more steady in their mood. But one breeder said she preferred the males as they were soooooooo affectionate and in your face, where the females were too, but when they wanted to be....on their terms.

I had horses a good deal of my life and before I moved here to Idaho had Arabian mares. I tell you....this Dobe reminds me of my Arabians....very spirited and playful, super affectionate and he even moves like those horses. When he's frolicking, he tosses his head all around and leaps, twisting his body. It's really funny how he makes me think of them. Then one time, somewhere I read that people with horses often have Doberman Pinschers....some kind of comparrison there....interesting.

Well, thanks for all your stories and descriptions. They are really unusual and wonderful dogs.

I'm going to have to start talking about my Chihuahuas and my Lab or they may get jealous. LOL.

Carrie

Yes, know what you mean - I could talk about Dobermanns all day - they are addictive!  The other evening we brought Tag's plastic dog bed indoors and he had trashed it as usual, bedding all over the floor etc... and somehow one of his toy teddies (yes - he loves his teddies, bless him - he likes to suck them when he is dropping off to sleep!!!!) anyway the teddy had been pushed under the plastic bed and Tag jumped on top of it... well of course it rocked about so much his legs were vibrating so much where he was trying to keep his balance - looked like he was surfing LOL! Then he stepped too far onto one side and whole lot tipped upside down with him on it - and about two seconds later his head just pops straight up from the carnage with an expression as if to say "yes - and what are you lot looking at??!" :D :D It was just so hilarious - it should have been a camcorder moment....!    Your chihauhuas sound very sweet too by the way! :D

Hi Carrie
I had a 3/4 bred arab mare as a teenager and yes dobermann s are the arabs of the dog world.I would love another horse but not yet as the dogs get most of my time spent on them.

Ella.x.

I had a bitch given to me after she had finished being bred from,i thought i was doing the right thing in giving her a good retirement as it were but she didnt live for very long after i got herbut thats another story , anyway that was the reason i wanted a bitch but they had been sold and went to look at the 3 boys they had left and Zak picked me as i could not choose from them.

I do agree that boys are more laid back now after seeing both sexes together.

Now on to colour,my 2 are black, Kerioak's are black,Tag is black and Carries dog is black ,Do we all prefer the black?
I was in Chesterfield last weekend and spotted a dobe with its owner, i was in a car and as we approached it I thought it looked different, it was blue , this is the first one ive seen and thought it was lovely.Browns are nice as well but have yet to see a fawn (in the flesh that is )

Ella.x.

What a shame about losing your bitch, I am sure she enjoyed her last years with you.We wanted a black/tan dobe and I think as its more of the classic look of the dobermann - their coats are so striking and shiny and the black coat also shows that up a lot more too.  Tag chose us too as there were 8 of them running around but he came to both me and my OTH.  Having said that though if I could have had two I'd have loved to have a brown as well as they are very cute.  I've yet to see a blue or a fawn in the flesh too but am hoping to get to one of the South East England dobermann shows in August this year, so might be able to spot one if I am lucky.

Hi

I have a brown Dobe. Originally I wanted another black as my first was a beautiful black n'tan girl. During my Dobe search, I couldn't find a black. When I went to a show on Monday, all the Dobes were browns. It seems they are gaining in popularity. Eventually we will get another Dobe and I will go for a black. Much as we love Lola to bits, I think I still prefer the blacks. She is a very easy going Dobe but she's only 11 months old. I keep my fingers crossed she doesn't go loopy!! :D

Hi

Your brown dobe sounds lovely, Tag's father was a brown dobe and he was gorgeous, and I have also noticed that the browns seem a little larger than the blacks - have you found this too?  Is this a general fact or is it just coincidence with the ones I have seen?

Hi
I have to say I thought the browns were a bit smaller than the blacks. My prvious Dobe Sophie was huge. She would have been too big to show - we didn't try. Lola is breed standard but she looks quite small to me.

Hello Mandy:

Now i does not undersntand one thing. the thing with the season. You mean the bleeding? Some dog's have the cicle only one time a year and some dogs 2 times a year( female)
Males are anytime all year around in season unless you neuter them. Not every Female is in heat at the same time. Some are in February and some in march or April.

I do have a bitch. She got only one time a year in heat. This was Autumn. Now she is spayed. Breed: Border collie. Oh joy she is a bitch. It is in the breed. Some borders do like other dogs and some don't. I have a friend who raised 2 dobes. This is a wonderful breed. But not for firstowner. This breed can be or actually is very stubborn loud book. The dog's turned out to be wonderful.

Hi Mandy,
Try not to worry too much, things will slowly come togehter,I've got 2 Dobes, the older is a male (2 yrs next month) and he is just now starting to show signs or settling down. Enjoy him being a puppy, Best of luck.
She