I am wondering if I should maybe take the "wait till asked approach" in a situation like this.  But I want to see how you all would have responded to it.  I am on this other forum and a man posted this:

"LOOKING FOR A BLACK AND SABLE PUREBRED FEMALE TO BREED WITH MY PUREBRED MALE "

Someone responded by telling him to look in the local paper.  Which kind of bothered me.  So I decided to respond.  THis is what I posted:

"Has your male been shown? Had his hips and elbows check? Had all the relavent blood and other tests done? Has he been proven in any trial? If you say no to these questions then fix him and don't breed him. Breeding is not just something to be taken lightly."

Well I thought I responded nicely enough but then 2 others posted after me telling me off.

"Im curious if you have a female that Bruce might be interested in? Because he didnt ask if he should breed, he simply mentioned that he was seeking a female.  Your post kind of reads to me like unsolicited advice."

"I agree with him. He did not ask if he should breed him just if there were anyone who had a female. You shouldn't jump all over people's case like that. Just answer the question and dont give uneeded advice."

I was under the impression that if you posted something to a forum everyone had the right to post their opinion but I might be wrong so I answered back to clarify my point.

"I don't see it as unsolicted advice. If someone post something for everyone to see and answer to then they are also opening up the question to all sorts of advice. As soon as I read his intention to breed then I had to ask some questions that he has the right to answer or not. I have worked in the shelter and rescue system as a foster home and a volunteer for over 12 years. So I have seen the results of careless breeding so when I see an opportunity to help someone learn or give advice that might help decrease the amount of dogs and cats put down every year I will do it. If people don't like it too bad. I didn't insult anyone I am doing what I see needs to be done to save our four legged friends lives."

Well needless to say they didn't agree with that either and a few days later this was added.

"The problem with it is that you attempt to impose your standards to what a responsible breeding is. While i agree with you, he has the right to hold himself to his own standard. If he had asked "what constitues a good breeding" Or "what steps should I consider before breeding" than I'd be in line with you 100%.  Also, since youve opened the box. to what level should he have shown his dog? Should he be a finsihed Champion? Through AKC? Should he have specialed him? Regarding his hip tests, should he have them ofa'd or use penn hip? Or will his local specialists opinion be enough? Along with your list of acceptable breeding tools you failed to mention pedigree research, or tempermant. Bruce's dog could have excellent hips, but all of his littermates be dysplastic.. The point is that there isnt a finite answer to it, there isnt a pat formula to apply to what qualifies as a responsible breeding. Its the owners responsibilty to make informed decisions, and the buyer should hold him accountable by using their own standard. If you had a female that you were considering contacting him about than id say you were within your rights to ask those questions.. aside from that it just kind of assumes that he has no idea what he's doing."

Agian I was shocked.  But here is my reply to this.

" If I kept my mouth shut when people even mentioned breeding I wouldn't have been able to convince so many people over the years to not breed their animals and to fix them. Like I said before I am going to keep telling people my opinion because I work in the system and see the results of a lot of people who are ill informed making bad decisions. I am not forcing them to read my words or to hear them or do them. THey still make their own decision. I just give them an opinion and that is something I am going to keep on doing. I have helped in a lot of ways by doing this and I find it sad that you seem to have the opinion that if not asked then don't tell. That won't chage the fact that thousands of dogs and cats are put down so often. At least I am trying to make a difference. But the same thing to you. You can either read this and learn or not. I am not responding to this anymore. I have stated my opinion which was my right and I have tried to help and I will continue to do so on any post I see like this."

Now here is the question I have for you fine people.  Was I in the right to give my opinion in this or should I have just kept my mouth shut?  After being in the shelter system for so long I find that hard to do.  I don't see breeding as just something someone should do on the spur of the moment with out the learning process and research and so on first.  Anyway, how would you have responded?

Stick to your high principles :)

If some people dont want to reach your high standards it doesnt mean you have to lower yourself to their low standards .

If you feel strongly about something done let others put you off because they couldnt care less :)

They sound like a right load of stuck up tossers to me, probably didn't like it cos you knew more than them. Which forum is it?

Youre right to bring this up -an informed breeder wouldnt be soliciting bitches, s/he would have done their homework on checks/lines and ensured the dog was proved in showing/working etc. Unfortunately the irresponsible/ignorant are often least likely to accept advice/help/hints and most likely to abuse you. Hold to what is right and grow a thickj skin, dear. Hows wee Sheena?

We phoned the vet and he told us to relax and wait since she is acting completely normal.  He thinks it is most likely from the shot she had two weeks ago.  Thank you for asking.  It has gotten smaller though so I am not so worried.

This guy should be politician, he is obviously very clever, but not very wise
- and just as scurrilous.
I'm guessing that this particular forum is one of those which is orientated to breeders and their beliefs.
Therefore, like most politicians he is hiding his true intentions.
What he is really saying is that because he holds opposite beliefs to you,
he does not wish you to actively and openly promote your beliefs in competition to his, in case this influences public opinion to support curbs on breeding - whereas it seems, from what this man has said, he is connected with this indusatry somehow.
So, instead of being honest, he is trying to hide behind notions of semantics.
People have the right to receive free flowing information, AND to make informed decisions after hearing ALL the information.
And people from both sides of an arguement have FULL right to express all information to each other AND the undecided, *whenever* the issue at hand arises, *however* is broached.
People cannot prevent other people from passive expression, all they can do is ignore their expression - this too is *their* right.
When one side of an arguement wishes to *define* and *structure* the boundaries of expression of the other side, in addition to their own,
this is called *spin*, AND IS A BLACK ART.
People who have to resort to this must have a deep seated worry that their arguement is weaker or their actions are not truly justified.
It sounds like this man is trying to do a "Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell" vis a viz the BBC and Hutton Report!
cheers, kiwi

Good for you! Stick to your six shooters cowboy! Those people are sods. (love that expression) You can post articles on reputable breeders and why they health test for genetic diseases and what happens to the different breeds when back yard breeders breed dogs. We call them greeders, not breeders.

Those morons....reputable breeders don't go on a message board looking for a mate for their dog. I have a very strong feeling about breeding indiscriminately and like you hate the thought of all these dogs euthanized all over the world. Breeding purebred dogs should be left up to the expert breeders, not idiots like that guy. We go round and round with this as well as the neutering thing on other boards. Show them this and just maybe something might sink in....doubtful, but maybe. This is what happens to so many puppies. Tell this jacka** to wake up and smell the coffee. Can you tell I'm mad? Next time I'll tell you how I really feel. (sorry if I come on here gangbusters as a new member)

Carrie

DO I GO HOME TODAY?

My family brought me home cradled in their arms.
They cuddled me and smiled at me and said I was full of charm.
They played with me and laughed with me and showered
me with toys.
I sure do love my family, especially the girls and boys.
The children loved to feed me, they gave me special treats.
They even let me sleep with them - all snuggled in the sheets.
I used to go for walks, often several times a day.
They even fought to hold the leash, I'm very proud to say.
These are the things I'll not forget - cherished memory,
because I now live in the shelter - without my family.
They used to laugh and praise me when I played with that old shoe.
But I didn't know the difference between the old ones and the new.
The kids and I would grab a rag, for hours we would tug.
So I thought I did the right thing when I chewed the bedroom rug.
They said that I was out of control, and would have to live outside.
This I did not understand, although I tried and tried.
The walks stopped, one by one; they said they hadn't time.
I wish that I could change things, I wish I knew my crime.
My life became so lonely, in the back yard, on a chain.
I barked and barked, all day long, just to keep from going insane.
So they brought me to the shelter,
but were embarrassed to say why.
They said I caused an allergy, then they each kissed me goodbye.
If I'd only had some classes, when I was just a little pup,
then I would have been a better dog when I was all grown up.
"You only have one day left." I heard the worker say.
Does that mean I have a second chance?
DO I GO HOME TODAY?
 

I'm afraid its the same old thing.  I happen to agree 100% with you, but once again its not what you say but how you say it.

You cant bark orders at people 'get him fixed' without getting peoples backs up.

Perhaps a more diplomatic answer would have been in order.

You don't have to bark orders at all. You can just show them the medical facts, the statistics, examples of the outcome of poor breeding practices and case histories.

You're absolutely right in that diplomacy is always best. And educating people is the goal.

Carrie

I personally see no problem with the reply you gave. That is the sort of reply you would get if the question was asked on this forum., infact if someone asks about a cross breed, such as a cockapoo, many will give the poster short thrift. It is simply because they all care and are passionate about these things. It is good advice. Isn't this what forums are all about?

Thank you all for your replies.  I feel much better now.  I am not going to stop at all when it comes to the promoting of fixing pets and leaving breeding to the ones that have done the work and are dedicated to bettering the breeds.

What you said was absolutely correct,you should give us the site addy and we will all echo your thoughts,well i will anyway ;)

christine

I don't know much about dogs yet and when I post I hope for those with such experience with you to throw me a few pearls of wisdom! Surely that is what it's all about? People sharing the best info they have?

I would have done the same, and have done the same in the past.  Reputable breeders, (and even those I am not too keen on because of all the dogs in rescue but that is something different)

A reputable breeder does NOT ask on a website about finding a female to breed with, they usually have the contacts.

So You go get them Girl !!!

You did right, I breed labs and I have the most beautiful black lab, looks perfect in every way, and have been asked for her pups many times specifically from her, I tell people she is the only one I keep just as a pet and will never breed from her, she has a high hip score, I have tried time and again to make people understand just what breeding is all about, not just the cute puppy, Stick to your principles thats what principles are for.

Kay

Well the debate still continues at the other forum.  Here is the latest.

I agree with Isabeau that her opinion is a good one about breeding and that anyone looking for a potential breeding partner should list fully what attributes their dogs possess which would make them a suitable genetic donar. ESPECIALLY a male whose contribution is minimal and whose takes no risk. Because let's face it there is a risk to the female that males simply don't have.

I believe that the original poster should have elaborated more. Perhaps then we would be able to judge on whether the person knows what they're doing or if they're just along for the ride.

I think the people who most take advantage of the breeds are the so-called breeders themselves.I think it is horrible to breed a female over and over and over to reap a profit. A great majority of the Sires and Dams that produce for breeders are only kennel dogs who are nothing but puppy making machines. They don't even have the affection of a family. To me that is more digusting than a person breeding for a hobby.I have jack russels and the best dog i have ever had is a dog who was bred from pets.He is pure bred. I have also paid $650.00 for a so-called top quality dog and have delt with alot of faults.I think it is irresponsible to breed dogs with health issues and faults, but more important than anything is the motive. We should try to preserve the breed, but to make sure we realize we are dealing with an animal who enjoys personal contact. They are a pack animal who want to be part of our pack (family)

I think the question on a forum speaks for itself, if you are dead set at wanting to show and breed you would be in the right circles to find a female and would not need to advertise, the forum is for general chat and advise, not a classified advertising paper.

Well said. If you have a top quality stud b!tch owners would be contacting the stud owners, not vice versa

And last but not least the one who just doesn't get it.  At least I don't think he does.  I don't know whether to reply or not.  And if I do I don't know what i should say that would make him understand.  But I really don't want him to have the last word or for anyone to think I agree with him.

ok here we go again.. you have arrived at an assumption. Not saying your not probably correct, but it is still just an assumption. If someone had a female they were interested in breeding with his male.. they share responsibilty in asking the questions that satisfy there own requirements of a suitable male.. not Isabeau's requirements or yours. I dont know what you mean by especially a male whose qualifications are minimal... you dont know that about his dog. your right and wrong.. there are responsible breeders and there are irresponsible breeders. The best a buyer can do is inform themselves.. Remember if it werent for the efforts of responsible breeders, there would not be a purebred dog. There is no doubt that some people exploit this, you can eliminate the "market" for their product by not purchasing a dog from someone you feel is not respponsible. If buyers were more informed, and chose not to buy from bad breeders, puppymills, etc etc.. the practice would cease as there would be no profit in it. Isabeau, I dont know where you get a dont ask dont tell opinion from me.. I feel strongly that anyone considering contacting him about a breeding should ask a ton of questions. They should ask questions to satisfy there own requirements for a Stud-not your requirements. You dont have a female that you are considering mating with his dog, so your requirements for breeding are irrelevant. Your aide in shelters is admireable. BUT remember if noone bought those dogs, they wouldnt exist.. I am a particpant in the fancy of Purebred dogs.. I have little personal tolerance for Bad Breedings, but i dont rail my standards against others, unless im directly asked to. And believe me my standards are WAY tougher than the minimal levels you posed. Basically I agree with the minimal standards you presented, but just dont think your justified in posing them. And your crusade against breeding is time ill spent especially if there is a profit motivation to them.. if you educate buyers -you'll find the majority will make good decisions.

So what do you all think?  Should I respond to this or just let it lie.  And if you think I should respond what would you say?  I don't want people learning from his bad example.