Hello all.  Having owned several breeds of dogs including border collies, golden retrievers, shetland sheepdogs, terriers and Heinz 57's, myself and my husband are very attracted to getting a Doberman in the future.  It may be some months yet but I would like some advice.  The dog we would prefer would be a bitch with a good nature and intelligence.  Preferably black and tan and we are definately against docking of tails and so would love to hear from any breeders who would be prepared to offer us such a puppy.

Any advice would be most welcome to Beth.s@btopenworld.com.  Thank you for your attention and advice in advance.

Best regards Beth.   

Providing you pay for a puppy before or at it's birth most people will leave a pup undocked for you, you would however have to be prepared that the undocked puppy may become sick or die before it reaches 8 weeks, in which case you would have to have an agreement with the breeder what would happen in a case like that.

There are a number of health tests that should be done not only on the parents of your prospective puppy but there parents before them. So you need to find out what they are (guess a Doberman owning member will let you know) but not forget to ask about that before you negotiate about the tail. As tails are docked within the first 48 hours of the pups life to avoid pain and shock to the pup, you need to do all this before the pup is born.

There may be breeders who do all the necessary things to make sure they produce a health litter from quality stock and do not dock any pups but you will have to do that research for yourself as taking recommendation from a 3rd party is a starting point it will be up to you to do the checking.

Hi Beth

The tests Jackie is talking about for Dobermanns include Hips - our breed average is 10, Eyes for PHPV, DNA test for vWD (von Willebrands Disease) a bleeding disorder where at least one parent should be Clear and the mother should not be Affected).

There are many breeders in Dobermanns who don't test for anything and breed a lot so you need to look into your breeder

Why not register so you can ask your questions?

I hope you do register and stay here. I've just joined myself. I have a Doberman pup, a male blk and rust whom I got here in the US where I live. He is cropped and docked, done by the breeder's vet before I bought him. I prefer the cropped look but like the floppy ears too. My experience with the cropping was that for 2 or 3 days, they were sore, like getting your ears pierced all the way along one side, then when the breeder would clean them, the pups would lean into the cotton ball, as they started to just itch. Within a week, stiches were out and scabs were gone, all healed. Then it's just been a matter of bracing them up for months to train the cartiledge to stand upright. We're almost done. Yippee skippee. It is a bit of a hassle for both of us.

I've heard that undocked tails run a risk of fracture because they're quite long and whip like. I've heard of more than a few instances of this. They are docked prior to the completion of their nervous systems, so I understand. But, it's personal preference I guess. I love Lyric's little stubby tail, especially when it's going full throttle. And he never clears my coffee table as my Lab and GSD have. LOL. There's also nothing to grab onto if he happens to be in a confrontational situation for which he was bred. (which I very much doubt he will be...but who knows?)

So, I don't know how it is over there with breeders. But do check for reputable breeders that health test, have a good history with longevity in their lines, what the dogs died of and when. Hip dysplasia can occur and should be tested for. However, it is not terribly prevelent in this breed. Cancer, dilated cardiomyopathy and cervical vertebral instability (wobblers) are the worst and most common. Von Willebrands is something to watch for, however with Dobes clinical bleeding is much less severe and common than with other breeds, although its more prevelent overall in Dobes.

Here's a site that might help you to know what to watch for in a breeder. Of course, there are differences between continents. Even the German standard is different than the American. I like the dogs with a little of both breeding. The Germans tend to want them more sharp, the Americans, more mellowed out. The Germans say we ruined the breed for working. We say we didn't, just don't need any lawsuits. LOL.  So, here's something:

http://www.hope4dobe.org/beforeyoubuythatpuppy.htm   Hope it helps.

Carrie

Hi Carrie

Welcome to Champdogs (even if you do prefer the cropped look ) :D

Cropping is not permitted over here (UK) so we don't have that problem :)

We don't have any definitive tests yet for DCM but are working on it - there is a scheme in the process of being set up where every Dobe owner in the UK has the opportunity to register for it and we hope to get it up and running shortly.

We are sort of ahead of you (US) with vWD as we frown on any breeding that does not have at least one Clear parent and as of last year, after a LOT of work, we now have an official vWD scheme like our hip and eye schemes where every dog tested though the scheme has its results published.

CVI is a difficult one as an absolute diagnosis involves a myleogram which can cause problems in itself.

Longevity is a difficult one as not many people are willing to openly say what their dogs died of although this is getting better - you will find two of mine so far on the DPCA list.

I don't dock my Dobes and have never yet had a tail fracture, torn ears, broken legs, stomachs ripped open - yes but never tail damage.  More items are knocked surreptitiously onto the floor by those shiny black noses than are ever knocked there by the tails :D

Karioak,

Yes, I agree...more breeders here should be working on the vWB. Most strive for it, but it is difficult I guess to get everything going for them when cardio, cancer and CVI are so dreadfully more serious. They have here a study...I forget the name of the guy...begins with a G. Some people on a dobe board I go on borrow a Holter monitor and are involved in the study. I don't know much about it, but there's something going on where many can enroll their dogs in this study through a major university...also forget which. I think back East.  We have through the AKC records and lists of hip and elbow status, vWB and some other things.

But yes, much more needs to be done on improving their health through responsible breeding. I think things are getting better here. Apparently, in the 70's Dobes were very popular and were bred left and right, producing some awful ones. Lately their registered numbers aren't all that high. Here, it's Labs being #1 and I forget what came next. Their numbers soar above the rest in registrations.

Well, it will be fun to hear how you get on with your pursuit of a Doberman. I wish you the best. No matter what their ears and tails look like, they're still Dobes and a wonderful, beautiful breed.

Carrie

Thank you all so much for your information.  I have registered and look forward to picking your experienced brains nearer the time we are in a position to get our Doberman.  I can't wait.  I have done lots of obedience training with other breeds so it will be interesting to try it out on a Doberman!  We believe in doing our homework regarding breeders and will be grateful in the future for any info you experienced Doberman owners can give us.

Still going for the floppy eared, long tailed look!  I think it looks stunning.  Hope we will make great owners.  It certainly wont be for lack of trying.  Anyway thanks for now and look forward to your good advice in the future.

Best wishes Beth x x 

Hi Carrie

I think you probably mean Guelph University?  They are doing the studies on DCM and hire out the Holter monitors.

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Hi Beth

Feel free to pick our brains - they may be empty half the time but that comes from owning Dobermann(s) :D  You will probably find that training a Dobe is different from other breeds - my instructor certainly thinks so.  With the Collies she makes them do it over and over again and get it right before she lets them go, with Maverick and I she makes sure I am getting it right and will only do it a couple of times with Maverick - then we have to go away and practice as she (and my others) frequently "switch off" or get creative once they have done something a few times.

Good luck in finding an undocked pup - there aren't that many of us around who really appreciate them.

Hi Beth,
Welcome :)
I too have a Dobe of 11 months. I searched everywhere for an undocked one. I didn't find a breeder who would be prepared to leave a tail on even when I offered to pay in advance. Christine didn't have any pups at that time :)

Yes, that's the university I was trying to think of.

Indeed, our brains are 1/2 empty and it is from owning a Dobe for sure. All the brain space is used up trying to keep up with these intelligent and sneaky dogs.

I know what you mean by repitition. Too many times with one thing and they're incredibly bored, so we skip around a lot when training and do all kinds of things intermittently. And lots of positive reinforcement all the time. If I catch Lyric doing something right, like not stepping into my vegetable garden, I'll just holler out to him, "Good out" which is the word I've been using to try and teach him to stay out. It's been covered with snow all winter and now this is all new to him. G-r-r-r-r it's going to be fun trying to teach him not to eat my flowers and things.

I don't know how it is over there, but breeders here would be hard pressed to not dock tails because if they have to rehome a dog, which happens, they have a harder time because most people like the traditional look. That's even the way with cropped ears.

Carrie

Nope, definately sold on the floppy earred, long tailed look.  I find it hard to understand why everyone would not love this look but I suppose tradition has its place.  I will find my puppy and she will be spoilt rotten, but obedience trained, which is the bit I am looking forward to!?!  Luckily I am a very patient person and so is my husband!   Interestingly in the UK the Police force are currently looking to changing from using German Shepherds to Rotweilers as apparently "Alsatians" in the UK have been bred to be too gentle to sufficiently perform Police duties!  I never have really understood cropping and docking.  It has always seemed like a practice from a Dickens novel and I wonder why it is necessary.  Sorry if this is a bit contraversial but its a point of view and personally I do not want a "mutilated puppy" just to satisfy some Judge in a show ring.  I really believe Dobermans look magnificent with their beautiful soft brown ears and elegant tails and appreciate that many of you with a lot more experience with the breed disagree.  Sorry I do not mean to offend.  Its just my personal point of view and I hope that a breeder out there will agree and help me in the future when I am looking for my pup.

On a lighter note my husband is a firefighter and involved with "sniffer dogs".  The Fire Brigade unfortunately trained their dogs (Labs) in the same way as Customs, to sit when they find something.  The result was a lot of Labs with burnt bottoms!  The training programme has been changed!!

  

Good luck Beth in your search for your puppy when the time comes.  One other thing that you need to bear in mind if you have an undocked puppy is that you wont get a choice of puppy in the litter if only one is left with its tail on.......that will be your puppy.  You will be amazed at the number of people who cant understand this when it is explained to them.  Having left tails on Min Schnauzers in the past for prospective owners, when they come to view their puppies they seem to find it hard to realise that the one with the tail is theirs and they dont have a choice.

Hi Molly

It depends who she goes to - some of us who are anti-docking leave the tails on ALL our pups unless there is a very good reason for docking

Well Done Kerrioak.
The sooner this barbaric mutilation stops in this country the better.
I am in complete agreement and very anti docking

I am so glad to hear that I am not the only anti docking person.  Its great to know that there are breeders as well as dog lovers out there who agree that this is "barbaric".  Hopefully if more people like myself and my husband demand non docked dogs then the message will eventually get through.  For goodness sake, look at a Doberman with a tail and one without.  Are we really so arrogant as to think we can improve on nature?!  If there was a medical reason then fine, but so far I have heard nothing to support this.  To be honest the rest of the medical stuff is something I will have to get into and read up on as it looks a bit complicated and as my Mum in Law has just been dumb enough to buy a puppy from a pet shop (yes, I know!) I have a lot of reading to do about Dobermans.  My wish list is to get a black bitch pup, healthy, floppy ears and long tailed that I can obedience train (!) (I can hear experienced Doberman owners laughing from here!!) and maybe even breed a litter.  Who knows.  Anyway just to say thank you all for your good advice and help and nearer the time when we have that big garden, park nearby and ear defenders for the neighbours we will be in touch again.   Thank you all. x x  

Hi Beth

There are at least two undocked Dobes competing in Obedience, two more that do agility and one that does both and all originated from the same source :D

I compete in obedience with my Maverick and would like to take this opportunity to introduce her daughter, Toxic who will, I hope be joining her in the ring next year (fingers crossed)

Beth, you are entitled to have the sort of pup that you want, just as you are entitled to your opinions, just as others are entitled to theirs. How do I feel about docking, well of all the things we put our dogs through I think that docking if very low on the scale of pain and mutilation, having seen horrible tail injuries I think that some tails would be better removed at birth or that we should try to breed tails more suited to the environment we keep or put our dogs in. Do not think any operation should be carried out on a dog because it is fashionable or the thing to do, we need to think for ourselves and come to our own decisions, you have done that and I accept your decision without comment.

may I ask why do they dock the tail is it for medical reasons I have never had a dog with a docked tail and am just being nosey really and why do they only dock certain types/breeds?
Thanks
Maggie Laura

Think it was done originally to working dogs that either worked in thick cover or underground, also to some pointers because I guess their tails are not well furnished and would think liable to damage. So in these cases yes it would be for medical reasons. Whether dogs in the domestic environment could be classified like that I could not say, all the cases of tail damage I have seen has be done in the domestic environment, but only a small proportion of the dogs are from customarily docked breeds so if it is to be done for reasons of health (the chance of future damage) then perhaps all breed apart from those that hold their tail well over the back should for reasons of their future health be docked.

Just a thought for discussion I am not putting forward a case for or against docking but think it would be nice if it could be talked about without all the excessive passion that normally accompanies any attempted to get at the truth of the matter and not just peoples passionately held feelings.

<<we should try to breed tails more suited to the environment we keep or put our dogs in.>>

This brought up visions of little tails wriggling around unattached to any dogs so that just the tails could be bred :D

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Maggie Laura

Could you ask that question on a new thread as it is likely to get heated and locked? :D