I have read it, and have given banger advice in the past!! also what makes you think that the met get there dogs from shutz breeders, because they breed there own a lot of the time, and they are from good english stock, steve may bring in some german blood lines, but all puppies are bred at the dog school, and the reason i dont like the idea of max doing this kind of training is the man work aspect of it, if it is just obedience, then thats fine, but when you have a dog that is of unsound temp, being introduced to protection work, there is a fine line, as someone else put, about them being able to switch on and off, to be a pet and then to go out and do some protection work, just like the working police dogs have to do, so they need to have a balanced temp.

Metpol,

I asked you to read back on the Sch thing, clearly by your reply you haven't.

Yes I know that the met are getting some of their dogs from Sch breeders with dogs from stock origianly imported from Europe, although they are now English thats true.

We do not have the dogs here to do Sch except those from originaly imported stock.

Now can you please point me to ANY input on this thread which says banger is going to do Sch.
Avaunt

In your previous postings you have mentioned shutz quite a lot, yet you say where have you posted it? obviously i am getting the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds to me and i am not the only one, dizzy also thought the same, maybe you are not making yourself clear enough with your veiws, ok it doesnt say that banger is doing shutz, i get that, but it does seem that you are pushing for him to go down that road.

<<<but most Brit GSD's have a low nerve threshold >>>

Most??
How many is that then and how did you come by this info? Can you provide statistics or a link to where I read the information for myself? Or is it just a 'blanket statement' because 'most' Brit GSD's do not compete in Schutzhund thereby you only have the breeder/owners 'say so' of a dogs drives/ thresholds and temperament?

Scratches head :rolleyes:

Well, a brief training history for those who aren't clear :-

1. Local Council Run 'Good Dog' Puppy Training Classes - trainer indicated that she didn't have the expertise to deal with Max. Our previous dog Tara excelled in these classes and became a very obediant dog and still is today without top up training! There was no reason at 14 weeks to suspect Max wouldn't be as trainable as Tara. We were advised by the vet to keep Max away from other dogs until 14 weeks (2 weeks after his jabs) and the Trainer from the club told us to pick Max up so as he didn't sniff anything and catch anything when we went to book in at the Training club at 12 weeks. We left the club because other dogs were coming along with the training and Max was falling behind - not even getting to grips with the basic sit, stay and down.

2. Contacted ex-police trainer - home office approved. Sent us a questionaire to fill in and then said he wanted to see Max on a one to one basis at £25 per hour. After the consultation he said Max wouldn't do well in his classes and he felt Max would have to mature before he could begin any training as he was too immature and wouldn't do well in a class situation. He gave us basic advice such as send him to his bed if he was being naughty etc.

3. Went to local (30 miles away) APBC behaviourist who gave us a program to follow which we did for 2 months (religiously) - a little improvement but still major probs. We have contacted this behaviourist again last week and are still awaiting a reply from her backup service.

4. In October 2001 Max went to a residential training kennel specialising in GSDs - good success here. Took the trainer a week to get near him but after that he had high hopes for Max. This trainer also runs a Schutzhund Club. His opinion of Max was he was basically OK, but he was amazed at 'how near the surface....his wild wolf instincts were". Also he did say that on occaisional days Max would behave as if a 'spook' dog. He was there for 4 weeks where he received socialising and basic obediance and was kenneled with another dog. Max has been well behaved since he returned (End of October) till a few weeks ago (about the beggining of March). The reason for his sudden decline is not apparent to us. Ok it took us half a day to get Max to work for us - but after that he was fine and was relaxed about being around dogs. The trainer did say we had to keep up his training which I have tried to do but admittedly haven't kept up his socialisation.

We are currently looking for a club that is either GSD specific OR isn't looking for dogs that are easy to train. A couple of club trainers have said they won't take Max on because he would be too disruptive. That's why today I have purchased Cytacon in an effort to relax Max and maybe we can take him to a training club. But this may take 3 months (see Serene-um thread) and may not work so we may then have to try St Johns Wart.

I wan't to thank everyone for their advice and some of it has been very useful - particularly the Herbal calming advice. I think my dad hit the nail on the head the other day saying "The trouble with Max is you never know how he's going to be". Having read a lot of info suggested by this forum (thanks again to all those who suggested sites and books) I am starting to think that Max's problems stem from his nerves/temperament. A dog you is up on the ceiling isn't going to learn how to sit successfully at a training club now is he - he's going to be too busy assessing possible threats, not concentrating on the job in hand. The APBC behaviourist did say something similar to this when we first took Max to her - she said that it could be from his mothers genes and he would "...never be the most trustworthy of dogs...". Having said that he's been calm today and hasn't got into a bit of trouble so who knows!

banger---ive asked this about 3 times now- who bred max??????who is his dam, -did you get to meet her, handle her etc, was she friendly or not, --did you contact john rogerson ever, or not, ???/would you answer these few questions please, --i wish you well with the calmer stuff, fingers crossed

I've emailed Max's pedigree to you dizzy - hope you don't mind. We didn't handle Max's parents as they were in a separate pen - which could be a bad sign but the mother seemed a very quiet dog - the father was going nuts at us (barking). We did go to the pen and she came over to investigate us - didn't bark but the father was barking at us with a rugby ball in his mouth :rolleyes: We did contact John Rogerson ages ago but haven't recently - my family are now a little wary of behaviourists and am still trying to get them on side about this.

Hi eoghania (think I'll call you toodles too its a lot easier to spell :D)

Max and I have attended a dog club (see the post about his training in this thread)

Good training schools who will take Max on are hard to find.

I will NEVER use any kind of Choke or even Half Choke collar let alone "Hanging".

Good idea about the lead and the down stay :D

I think my english is perfectly adequate.
SO MET where in this thread do I even HINT let alone indicate that banger has been refered to do Sch.

I did say, in a context, that he might, if he he picks up training go in for a BH.

That is not exactly a Sch triathlon and I personaly would encourage anyone to do obedience to any reasonable level in order to keep the average mongrel within the 1991 DDA, which it is not if goes running and barking to someone who simply doesnt like dogs, it could be considered 'behaving in a threatening manner' if the non-dog lover claimed he/she and kids 'felt' threatened, I did not read it myself but I was told that Our Dogs published a number of such incidents last year.

I do have personal knowledge of the most harmless 10 YO, hardly any teeth left, mongrel being put down for exactly that near where I live, it was friendly but they felt threatened.

Now you have COMMITED yourself on TWO occasions that I said or implied or encouraged banger to do Sch.

With those TWO COMMITED statements of yours in mind please point me to it!

Do i need to point you to it or can you not remember what you have previously written, you can of course move the mouse onto the bar to take you back quicker to your previous postings to see what you said, and why are you getting so stroppy!! this board is for people to share there experiances and knowledge or do you believe you are the only one who can do this?

Below is copied from the other side, it's what I wrote, now please point out to me and everyone else where that says or implies banger shoud do Sch training!

avaunt

>The sooner you go and see if that Schutzhund trainer will take you the better Banger, all this only leads to endless confusion and as the time goes on the more Max (a) consolidates his unwanted 'learned' habits (b) 'learns' new unwanted habits. <

I think the confusion is arising as you mentioned that a SCH trainer may be willing to take BBanger and Max on to do OBEDIENCE training!

And as i said previously, if it is for obedience training then fine, but when you say take him to a shutz trainer, is that what you mean he is going to be trained in?

THANK YOU BRAINLESS...I don't know why you call yourself that but thats exactly what I said...

It does seem that Met doesn't know that Sch sports people do obedience classes on occasions as well.

I don't know how they get into Hendon these days but I don't like being misquoted unless the person makes a mistake and then comes and says >the obvious< "Oh yes I misread"

Max's residential trainer is a Sch trainer and club organiser AND took max on for 4 weeks basic obediance.

Thats really good banger, I take it you mean you and banger, thats a question..

Max was taken on his own and trained - I got half a days handler training with him after that - if that's what your asking ?

Yes, I was just unsure when you said he 'took him for 4 weeks'

So after all banger they havent got you getting him to rip throats out yet as implied.

He just had the basic obediance course - he didn't have the tracking or protection course that they run. The place he had his training at can be found here http://www.servicedogs.co.uk

You obviously have nothing constructive to say!! and as for presuming i was a copper how wrong you got that, you seem to jump in feet first, insulting everybody along the way, we really dont need people like you on this site, and it is also funny how someone else said to me today about max doing shutz training, so i was not the only one to think this, i certainly wont be interacting on line with you again, it is a waste of my time.

What I said was quite clear. The fact that 2 people read something different than what is written is a problem for those people, it is a problem for me when they carry on insisting I said what they want me to have said when I said nothing of the sort.

as i was the other person, can you tell me where i carried on insisting you said it------or are you guilty of your own supposed problem--as its been pointed out on this board you have a really concieted attitude, you tend to talk down to people-which ive already mentioned to you in a previous mail -REMEMBER- !!!and if its right that you're dennis off sierras board ??????[is it right? or perhaps you'd rather not say!!!!] IF im right, then youve been guilty of the same bad attitude on that board too--we all have had diagreements on this board along the way-BUT!!!. we respect the others right to their belief.
i dont know why you feel the need to be so rude,!!!and before i go-where did it say that max had ripped someones throat out-or was about too,??

Banger, am I right in thinking that you have got another dog? you may have said you have before today so apologies if I missed that posting but I see you say that Tara is still an obedient dog now in a posting above this one. Does Max get on with her okay?

You also say that the trainer, as I call him, said how near the surface his wild wolf instincts were and the fact that he went for your dad, are you sure he can be treated as a pet in your home? I only say this because I would be more worried for my dad than for Max if the two of them lived together. My dad would come first. Do you think it is fair that you try to "make" him into a pet when he quite obviously (it seems to me) doesnt want to be?

Gina

PS Avaunt I also think you are getting a bit out order at the moment (IMO of course!)

Tara was the dog we had before Max but she lives with someone else now because of personal circumstances and I do occaisinally see her from time to time. Max has also met her and showed her his teeth (dominant type of grin) lol. But they had a good run around in the field with Tara teasing Max and him doing all the chasing :D I am worried about Max's temper but he seems to be learning this is not acceptable. We tried ignoring the behaviour but I don't think this is the correct way to go about it in this case and he now gets a good scolding. Ignoring his aggressive behaviour may have given him a licence to do it more. But just reading the book "Dogs are from Neptune" which I got today I am beginning to wonder if Max is scared of my dad. No idea why but no idea why he is scared of little puppies either - just a thought.

Hi Banger,
I don't mind what anyone calls me, as long as its not insulting :D Wow, has this thread really brought out some wierd debates.

Just to be clear, I said to check out the discipline measures of the training programs, just so you'd know in advance...not that you would ever do that to Max. :D

Not being famililar with dog clubs, I'm not sure of what type of obedience training you went through. I'm experienced with 8-10 week courses that meet once a week and then has nightly 15-30 minute homework assignments. Then there is a type of graduation and a second level can be attended. Nothing fancy, just basic groundings of behavior and expectations.

The reason I am stating this again, is that even you have said that Max is unpredictable. Well...to you, he is. To Max, well, he is just being Max. He has his own logic somewhere inside of him. There is consistency in his behavior. I've seen it from your numerous postings describing his actions.

When someone attends a lengthy class and works daily with a dog, eventually the owner/handler begins to see how the dog views the world and his surroundings. Each animal is different. One of my dogs will have her ears up when she figures something out. The other licks her chops when she realizes that she's doing what I want. I can see the gears in their minds work.

If you can anticipate a reaction, you can work on it before the situation gets worse. Stop it before it happens. That's your responsibility as a human because dogs just can't do this. Co-training lets both of you know what the other intends to do.

You live with Max...not all of these experts that you've seen and paid. You have to be the one to figure out what he is thinking and how he sees his world. Being told by experts after only a brief time, is only learning what they experienced, especially when he is completely removed from the household ...not how he interacts with you and your family.

I have noticed that you are extremely reactive and not proactive when it comes to Max's behavior. Because Max is not easy, you have to be the one to see where his actions are leading. For at least the next year, you cannot just relax and let things happen. It sounds as if he is your dog, so this is your responsibility...not your parents.

Have it set up that you can easily get ahold of him. NO more chasing through the room. I've had situations where the owner basically tied the leash to his belt and the dog went where he did. Sure, it was an inconvenience, but the dog didn't get into any more trouble with chewing and asserting itself with people. Within a month, he could be trusted off of the leash (within reason). Just as if you had a toddler, you always have to be the one to step in and take control of the situation.

For instance, your mother's feet. The first time he bothered her and she did not want him to, he should have been removed from the situtaion (down/stay, ejected from the room, ---something)...not let it happen for a half hour, that's for certain.

If he growls at something, don't react uselessly. Do something to change the situation and let him realize that he is not in charge .... such as dominant/down, lying down, ejection, or if you're on a path, turn him around and run him through basic obedience commands. Hitting, yelling, snapping newspapers, panicking, bellowing ignored commands will not end this problem. (oh, and don't use extend-leashes with him for a very long time--the handle just does not allow good control)

Seriously, if Max continues to be unpredictable in your mind, eventually he will become another tragic statistic. You have to figure what works for you and Max out on your own. {German Grandaddy's favorite saying : You have to be smarter than the dog to train it} We can only offer suggestions.

Using his lineage as a possible reason for his behavior is basically a waste of time. There is nothing you can do about that, even if you determine his Dam had a screw loose. There has always been the argument of Nature vs. Nurture. I view them as a blend, just like you cannot describe an acre using only width and leaving out length.
It sounds as if Max has had enough incidents happening to him while he was young to enhance his sensitivity. Purebred or mutt, dogs are dogs. The highest champion would still throw and rub himself happily upon carrion. Ick :(

Of course, this is all just my humble opinion :rolleyes:
Happy Easter
toodles

Banger,
Yesterday it finally became clear what the problem is.
When you said you took him to GSD academy I thought you meant something to do with GSD club, it now turns out you took him to Terry Hornsby.

Terry Hornsby probably has more achievements in dog handling than anyone in UK.

He was in LAPD dog section in the 50's, he did some training in Germany and he has even told me about the German Dobes of the 50's. He is the only outside German that I have spoken to who remembers them.

He currently runs his own, successful, Schutzhund club in Norfolk, which is the East Anglia Division of BSA.

The only Dobermann handler ever to achieve Shutz 3 in UK used that club as his training base and when I when I finally get my Dobe import from Germany I will use Terry’s facilities.

You told us that after Max had been toTerry Hornsby (a) Max had no problems he was trained and behaving as a problem free dog (b) Terry Hornsby gave you a half day training with Max and told you to train a little like that every day. (c) You did as he said and whilst you kept up the reinforcement training Max was fine. (d) Gradually you started to let the reinforcement-training slide until you stopped it. (e) The more you let it slip each day the more Max started getting out of control, until you end up as he is now.

Banger the reason Max is like he is today is because you stopped his daily training, there is NO OTHER REASON ( in the absence of any vetinary condition) and there is nothing you have described shows anything wrong with him at all except you don't put daily training into him.

Terry Hornsby is a very high achiever, he was gaining Schutz 3 titles before Sch came to UK and there is no way he would tell you do daily training with Max if it were not important.

So out of all these thousands of words in all these chapters it amounts to one thing, you either pick up the training and continue it (you might need a refresher course for yourself by now) or accept that Max will always be the way you describe him.

There are no quick fixes such as an afternoon at a behaviourists or counselling because if you yourself do not do short training sessions each day with that dog and he will get worse and worse.

I give my Dobe a couple of commands such as down or recall to heel when he's in high prey drive after a Kong or doing his own thing just to reinforce his obedience, I do not stop the walk or go through any formal procedure. That is what has to be done with some dogs because they dominate otherwise and end up like Max, dangerously out of control.

So in a nutshell banger, Max is trained by a highly experienced and respected dog trainer, he told you what to do, during the period you carried out his instructions you had no problems, you stopped those instructions and the problems you have are the result of that.

Some people on here have suggested that Max is not the sort of dog suitable for your needs, which seem to be for a much easier going dog that does not need daily reinforcement training, I think you should think about what they say seriously before he barks at a member of the public, the police are called and he falls foul of the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act which states ‘If the dog ‘appears’ threatening’, in practice that means he can be put down, many harmless dogs have been.

You will only get out of a dog what you put into it.

Hi Avaunt,
Based on what you just stated about Terry Hornsby, I would definitely be listening to him instead of bothering to read a book called "Dogs are from Neptune." I think you really hit the mark there. It really sounds as if Banger failed the course intentions, not Max.
Happy Easter
toodles

Wow, I've stayed out of this one because I realised long ago that it was not Max's problem it was an owner problem. Every solution offered has been or had been tried, Max is still a young dog these things should have been used long term, not a couple of months and give up and go onto the next thing. As has been said many times, Max needs consistency and ongoing training otherwise he is going to end up as another statistic & headline in the papers,. What I can't understand is the 'I took him to see a behaviourist', most of the ones I know acutally visit the dog in the home environment so they can be accurately assesed with all the family.

It has been assesed in the home Ingrid.

Dads being put out in a kennel at nights to save him from Max.

Mums ordered a Zimmer frame for when Max chews her feet off,
and Banger....well bangers getting an arm amputated to stop the sleeve chewing.

And don't tell me, visitors are being supplied with padded armour suits so they can get out in one piece !!!!!!! Ingrid

Well I don't know about the visitors but the neighbours have emigrated to Israel for a bit of peace.

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