Well, I went on my walk today, usual spot, usual route.  Every dog in sight was off lead.  I took a long rein decided Lana was in an obedient mood and let her off.  She didn't approach every dog but we passed four springers, two lurchers a retriever, so far all off lead.  She sniffed and wagged at them all but came with us as we passed.  We saw a pointer under one year old (off lead), they had a play, owners chatted, went our seperate way's, Lana followed.  So far, so good, - We come to the golf course so I put Lana on her lead for obvious reason's.  Suddenly a choccy lab (no offence to choccie lab owners) came bounding up and lept on Lana, who was on lead, now she wasn't fussed and just wanted to play but it gave me food for thought regards what if my dog was of nervous disposition?  The owners did not flinch and thought that it was in fact funny - i have to stress that my dog does not approach others like this ever, and that is what I think is being mistaken on this post?  The first time my dog merely approached the general direction before a man acted aggressively, the second time the BC was initially off lead - yes I have asked for peoples opinions, but I feel that all those owners out there who have a problem with dog's rushing up to theirs feel it's the time to vent their anger on my situation.  My conclusion is that if a dog is that aggressive it shouldn't be off lead, it is never fully controllable and is a danger, the owner IMHO can in some cases take responsibility for this, maybe they have acquired the wrong dog for their abilities as an owner.  I never once said I allow my dog to approach others that are on a lead, because I dont, and thank you Daisy as I think you are looking at this more realistically.  I could say why should I keep mine on lead because of aggressive dogs - I am the majority.  Owners of nervous dog's could say, why shouldn't they be able to exercise without harrassment from other dog's, we should try to respect everyones situation, which I try to do to the best of my abilities.  I got chatting to a lady with a rescue the other day (both our dogs on lead) and her dog decided to jump on me splatting dirty paw prints all over my top and nearly pushing me over...I could get annoyed about that but hey, their dog's, we aren't always one step ahead!
Sarah :)

Just because a dog is aggressive it does not mean they have a bad owner. I did everything you did, took my dog to training classes, went through loads of socialisation, but one bad experience caused by a thoughtless owner was enough to change her view of other dogs. I am now seeing a behaviourist to try and sort it out, but still have not managed to make her change her opinion. Does that make me a bad owner? What about rescue dogs? Please don't assume that all owners of aggressive dogs are incapable of looking after their dog adequately. Yes your dog may be sociable, but so was mine up until a year and a half, and one bad attack could change your dog too.
Being on lead often makes aggressive dogs worse, some may only be aggressive on lead, and if approached by a persistent dog being on lead will not make any difference as it will still be difficult to separate them if the other dog is off lead. A dog doesn't even have to bound over to trigger an attack with some aggressive dogs. Meg will snap if a dog just sniffs her, she feels uncomfortable and the dog has not read her signals (she stiffens just before, so i know what she is about to do, but somehow other dogs don't seem to take the hint.)
A muzzle may save your dog from injury, but it is not the ultimate answer. If a dog reacts out of fear, it will still react muzzle or not and some dogs may retaliate - even the ones who are not particularly aggressive, and then the aggressive dog cannot even defend itself. Not an ideal situation. Exercising a dog away from others is not the answer either, apart from roads, who has the luxury of an area where the dog can run free, and there are no other dogs, that they do not have to drive miles to get to? And how are you supposed to rehabilitate a dog if they never see another dog? (i am not saying that they need to have contact, just be in the presence of.)
Yes it is nice for your dog to play with others, i admit to thinking the same pre - snappy meg. When she was dog friendly she often approached others (off lead does only) like yours does, and it wasn't much of a problem, but know that i have an possibly aggressive dog (through fear), i can see the other side. Nobody really knows how difficult it is to have a dog like that until you have to cope with it on a day to day basis. It is frightening!
Obviously the mans reaction towards your dog was out of order, he could have been much more polite, but i am sure if there had been a fight you probably would have shouted too, it is a horrible experience and it is simply terrifying.
Please dog think that aggressive dogs are made purely by bad owners, that is simply not the case - if it were then there would not be so many owners with nervous or aggressive dogs posting on this forum, all loving, careful and in some cases, experienced owners.
Something to think about. WHat if you replaced the word dog with child. Would you let your dog approach every child they saw? Would you tell the parents hold on to the child or tell them to walk somewhere else, particularly if the child didn't like dogs? If you didn't have a recall concerning children i think perhaps you might be more concerned, but the fact remains that another dog can do a lot more damage than a child would.

Its like walking on egg shells on this forum, it really is!  I dont know if I can be bothered, but here goes...I do not state that all aggressive dog's have bad owners.  I have not mentioned muzzles - Once!  I dont have a problem with staffs - honest!  I sympathise with certain situations.  The whole of the dog owning population are not members of this forum and I know for a fact that some people are badly matched to their breed - and there are people out there to blame for certain aggressions!
Sarah

Hi Rozzer, I'm the smug person with the 100% recall dog, and you are right it is not always down to the owners, I have three bitches and one dog, another bitch on the way, couple of weeks, I am so laid back I fall over, and my dogs 'tend' to be the same, but because I have more than two, I have a pack, three labs and an ESP. All are very well trained, more for my sake than theirs, but the ESP a nine year old, which is 99% recall, will not recall if she feels she has to defend as pack leader. She has never attacked but was attacked because she was defending one of my labs, who was attacked by a Collie for no reason at all. The dogs were off leash because they were on my land, collie came up my drive to attack lab. I was given such a bollicking from collie owner for my springer defending her pack, and she did explain to me after she had calmed down that her dog was not used to other dogs, fair enough I told her to put her bloody dog on a leash, but I was more angry about her attitude towards me, so yes I can understand how you feel. I am also lucky enough to live out in the country and my dogs were usually the only dogs around so I could unleash them, except at lambing time, until owner of collie moved into cottage nearby. It would be idyllic if every dog owner was perfect but unfortunately we are not, I work on the rule that I put my dog on a leash first throwing off a body lanquage that the other dog owner should too. This works down country lanes, but not, I would imagine, in a public play/park area. ~Sometimes thinks owner should be muzzled, but thats another bitchin session,~

Kay

Don't wish to comment on others behaviour or feeling. Wish to point out that there are those dogs that have social skills and those who don't. A dog with good body language does not rush up to another dog, they go through a routine and wait for a response from the other dog, then if both dogs are happy with the other they move closer and have a good sniff they then either play or go on their way. Trouble is far to many dogs do not seem to have the communication skills they should, I don't know why, but they seem to have no idea how to approach a strange dog.
If a well-mannered dog is approached by a strange dog with none, then it is not at all unusual for the mannered dog to tell the other off in no uncertain manner and who can blame them. So watch the way your dog approaches others and if he is a devil may care, in your face sort of dog he is going to get up the nose of all but the most tolerant dogs.

Think early removal from the nest or the removing of the dam from the pups to soon may not help a puppy learn it's needed social skills and of course a pup that is not allowed to mix with others when young may have problems too.

My dog doesn't...Rush up, bound up, bounce up, chase up...She carefully approaches, reading body language.  If she gets the play signal she will take it.  I dare say that if she got close enough to the staffie she would have turned around anyway as he was giving off some very dominant signs.  The BC she was merely curious as the owner suddenly took his dog and ran away (his dog was origionally off lead), she followed, she ignored me, I went to get her, we met half way.  My dog is not a nuisance, she is not aggressive, she is not 'in your face' she is a normal dog who has very good social skills but she is very young, she is always learning and improving and is a credit to us and our hard work.  My origonal question refers to owner behaviour of such agressive dog's and peoples thoughts which I gratefully received.  But now this post reads that I have an out of control pup which just isn't true!! 
Lucyandmeg, 'what if's' are a waste of time.  If my dog had a problem with children I would do something about it but she doesn't, so I dont need to.  You also mention on another post about an old man getting knocked over by your dog that you wouldn't condemn your dog to a life on lead, and that you weren't quick enough to put her on lead during this incident you speak of and that these things sometimes happen.  Well these things do happen.  I haven't tarred the owners of aggressive dog's with the same brush that you assume I have so please dont assume that I have a disregard for my dog's behaviour on walks because I dont.
Sarah

Rozzer was not replying or even thinking of you when I wrote that, in fact, you added your post to the thread whilst I was writing it. The only reason I did is because it is not fair for one person to comment on the behaviour of another's dog suggesting that they have not train them correctly, sometimes it is just not that easy. It was not a comment on the thread in particular but on the social state of dogs in general.

Sarah/Rozzer
<<<some people are badly matched to their breed - and there are people out there to blame for certain aggressions!>>>

Most definitely :)

some people think they are good owners but are clearly not - they misread situations and sometimes over react or under react.

Thankyou lel...Back to reality!
:)

Rozzer

I would just like to say that I have a weimaraner bitch who was the most friendliest dog on the planet :-)  She never bounded up to strange dogs but like yours she would wander on up to say Hi.  She was our first weimaraner and we were delighted with her temperament.  However, she was attacked and told off by soooo many off lead dogs that she started to become aggressive and would basically go straight in to attack, simply assuming that every dog she met was going to be nasty to her in one way or another, therefore she would get in there first and defend herself.  Due to our lack of experience at the time we started to blame other people, suggesting if their dogs were aggressive in anyway then they shouldn't be off lead etc. etc.  Now, years down the line and more experience behind us, we are happy to admit that WE were the ones at fault.

From where I see it, no matter whether you meet other dogs on or off the lead, unless you know them you shouldn't trust them.  Now when we meet other dogs out walking we instantly but ours on the lead.  If we had done this from day one we would have saved our bitches temperament, as it happens we spent months trying to convince her that not all dogs she met were going to attack.  With lots of training and the fact that she had an excellent temperament to start with we have got through it, although she will simply not tolerate border collies, black labs or border terriers and that is simply because it was those breeds that she met a number of times and just by coincidence they all attacked her.

I just wanted to share this with you because I would hate for your lovely dog's temperament to be ruined :-)  Just because a dog is off lead doesn't mean to say it is friendly, as we all know, not everyone takes responsibility for their dogs behaviour. :-(

Quite so.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

This is a perplexing subject.  My dog does not have 100% recall - infact at the moment he's acting a bit like a teenager and we've had to go back to the lead for further training.  What annoys me is when I see a dog in the distance off lead and as soon as you go near the owner puts the lead on.  This happened a while back when I was half watching my dog and trying to pick up his no. 2's.  I noticed the lead had suddenly been put on the BC but my dog was already by the dog just a couple of feet away.  The owner did not try to keep his dog away from mine or stand between his dog and mine and I heard (and saw) jaws snap really loud after the BC lunged forward, I don't know how my dog managed to get his head out of the way.  I then heard the owner say "nearly got him that time" and he then praised the dog.  I was absolutely livid and gave him a lot of abuse about not muzzling such an aggressive dog and had he ever thought of training the dog not to be aggressive.  Yes, I am sure that I was at fault for not getting my dog back quick enough but the owner was equally responsible for ensuring that his dog doesn't attack other dogs regardless of whether they are on lead or not and then not correcting the animal when it viciously attacked.  Incidently, as I walked away after giving him a real mouthful, he let his dog off the lead and threw a ball in my direction for him right near my dog - talk about provocation.  I have seen him since when other dogs have ran near when his is on the lead and he loudly shouts go away go away to warn people off.  I still think the dog needs a muzzle.  Now I have the opposite problem, peer pressure from other dog owners who think I should be letting my dog off the lead all the time when I am trying to practice recalls.
It's a difficult area particularly when we all love our dogs to bits.

Nobody is accusing you of anything. This is a forum for talking about dogs. You asked about a particular subject and other people replied. It is very difficult to pick up on tone over the internet, so perhaps i picked up a tone of contempt for aggressive dogs and their owners that wasn't there, because it is a matter that is particularly dodgy for me. Being the owner of an aggressive dog is very lonely sometimes, and i end up feeling like the parent of a playground bully, despite having done everything that you describe makes you a good owner. If a dog approaches mine and she snaps because she is scared then the owner of the dog gives you an awful look, because they can only see an aggressive dog, not one that is intensely scared, something i have to worry about on a daily basis, because there is no where i can go that there wouldn't be dogs off lead, other than walking the streets, which just isn't an option for me.
I only mentioned what if it was a child because, once again from the tone of your posts (which may not be your intention) it seemed like you didn't realise how serious the situation could be. It sounded slightly blaise (i do apologise if that was not the case, this is the problem with the internet,) suggesting that it is the other dog and owner with the problem. Please do not jump on me, i am not trying to say that you are a bad owner, which of course you are not, just that it is important that your dog does not approach another dog without your say so, something that you have said you will work on. I can see where you are coming from, it is nice for your dog to be able to socialise so nicely, but i hope you can see my point of view too. :-)

Hi Lucy :)  I do see your point of view, you are right about tone but I will admit to getting a bit defensive of my little girl, who I have seen come on so much since a young pup, I don't know what everyones situation is when on walks but we pass dog's all of the time and it is so unrealistic to think I can clarify with every owner I see that their dog is friendly.  It is taken that a dog out on a walk is sufficiently well mannered to be out on a busy walk in the first place...It should be remembered that dog's are dog's and I will not lead up every time I see another dog as I don't want to make her nervous or unsociable.  If she was to be attacked I would want for her to be off lead, to give her some sort of chance for escape?  I just feel that some replies refer to an ideal world and not harsh reality.  I have been jumped on twice by muddy paws this past week, it happened, I cant moan about insufficient training, if I go walking dog's I expect to get dirty....Anyway I'm drifting from the point :rolleyes: - I thank you for your point of view :)
Sarah...Now off on a group puppy walk in the sunshine, to teach commands with distractions :D

Scattergood >>>>What annoys me is when I see a dog in the distance off lead and as soon as you go near the owner puts the lead on. <<<<<< Why does that annoy you? I would have thought you'd be more annoyed  if the owners didn't bother to put the leads on and just left their dogs to savage yours.
This is exactly what I do when I see another dog approaching because I now have a dog aggressive dog (caused by someone who didn't put the lead on his dog when he saw us walking nearby and subsequently took a chunk out of my then sweet natured dog. And my dogs WERE on their leads!) Think it's just common sense really, if you see an owner put a lead in their dog it's for a reason. It could be that the dog is aggressive, it could be that his dog is a little playful begger that runs off with other dogs and won't come back. Whatever the reason, to me it's a signal that they don't wish to be approached.

Many years ago we had a dog who was dog-aggressive on the lead. Off-lead he didn't bother to even look at them. I have often noticed that being on-lead causes aggression. Not always, of course, but in a high percentage of cases.

Just a thought.
:)

It's the opposite with my Harry JD, he's as good as gold on the lead which is strange because he was on his lead when he was attacked. He even appears friendly if another dog comes for a sniff while he's on his lead but he's a nightmare if allowed to run free with other dogs. He always ends up trying to bite them. Alfie his brother is the only dog he can interact with. It's such a shame because he used to play lovely with every dog he came across. I would hate for him to cause psychological damage to another dog the way he has been damaged himself.
I used to like my dogs to be sociable when out on walks and loved to see them run and play with others, and even though the incident where he was badly bitten didn't happen during the course of social play, I will think twice about letting any dogs I have in the future to interact with dogs we don't know and trust.

From reading this it seems a lot of issues are caused by many different types of people and dogs using a limited amount of space for a variety of activities. We are very lucky in having a safe area for free running nearby and I notice a certain dog who can be very territorial and dominant in other situations will just ignore others in the safe place, although he is exercised there daily. Other dogs coming over to us dosent worry us at all but I dont allow a lot of free running about now as I want him focused on me as the source of fun. I notice the police dog handler up the road and my working trials associates have a similar approach. What really does annoy me is owners who see us training and still allow their dogs to run over. People Im always happy to meet dont do this, but its just one of these things associated with living in town and limited space.

The other thing which strikes me is that even when dogs are playing with those you trust, you still need to keep an eye on them and call time when it looks like getting out of hand. Morse and a little working cocker are great buddies but if another dog arrives or a toy is involved they can get snappy and need split up.

"What really does annoy me is owners who see us training and still allow their dogs to run over."

Have to agree with that.  It's not just aggressive dogs that can be a nuisance.  For the last week I have been concentrating on training my boy to ignore others while sitting and staying (due to him playing up in class last weekend).  I started the week with him doing well.  Since then I have had three bad experiences - so not very helpful for training.  The first time a staffy x came running up.  I called to the owner to say that my dog was on a lead -could he call his back.  Result was his dog dancing around mine, grabbing his neck and trying to hump him.  He had no collar so I could not pull him off.  The second was a very similar situation with a collie although the owner was able to call him off sooner.  The third time was similar minus the humping - while she was trying to catch her dog the owner told me I should let mine go and let them get on with it.  I explained that I'd had listened to this very advice when my pup was younger and it had resulted in a boisterous bully!  None of these dogs were aggressive.   As a first time owner I make mistakes, but would love some advice on how to deal with these situations.

Just print off the "he only wants to say hi" article and stuff it into their hands!

Dogs that bark on the lead are not necessarily any more aggressive than those dogs who barge up to them!  It is a natural reaction to having their personal space invaded; we, as humans, feel similarly; anyone been in an enclose area with someone of another culture who has a different personal space? it is not comfortable is it? As has been correctly identified, it is not necessarily aggression per se that is annoying, it is sheer thoughtlessness and bad manners which is unnecessary and is totally avoidable.

Have to agree with you Salukidill,our off leash park is a 10 kilometer walk along the river :)
One thing i have noticed is that anxious and stressed dogs always have an anxious and stressed owner on the other end of the leash,dogs are so very good at picking up on our moods,when we tense up,ofcourse so will they,no doubt they think there is something to be stressed out about,so will be on the defence! Maybe if the owners relaxed a little so will their dogs,just a thought??

christine

Absolutely!

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/casehis.html

Jen, as I said its just part of sharing space where I live :) Have you tried sitting by a footpath while dogs pass? I found it worked better for this purpose than a recreation ground of low flying dogs! The other thing you can do is focus his attention on you - I say " Look!" and hold a bit cheese between thumb and index finger arm raised so he holds his head up and then flick it at his tail so he catches it. Now it wont help your stays but it will transfer attention when you need it.  As for when the dogs annoy your dog, Ive walked briskly in the owners direction, stood between the invader and mine or walked away just try not to give the other dog any atttention. Im always glad to help people who are at an awkward stage with their dogs/pups because I know what its like and try to see everything as a training opportunity. Not as crabbit as that sounded! :)

JG, a few weeks ago I saw a girl with a GSD on a lead - mine was on a lead at the time and she looked worried at passing me.  She was tense and pulling her dog past, who was just looking at Lana and whimpering, I said to her that Lana wasn't aggressive and she was fine to walk past me, she replied that "I'm not worried about your's its mine, he's aggressive"  Last night I saw her again in the distance and put Lana on the lead, as I got closer I was amazed to see her dog off lead playing with two other dog's - I know it was her and the same dog as I think he is more of a GSD-X...Yes, just a thought ;)
Sarah

Harriet, do you wait until the other dog is really close or do you do it as soon as you see the dog?  I would hope that it is the latter so that you give other dog owners as much time as possible to react.  On this occasion, the owner had plenty of time to put his dog on the lead as I was walking towards him but seemed to wait until I was a few feet away to do it.  That is the annoying bit.

Yes, we walk in places where we are unlikely to meet other walkers but are scanning the horizon on the look out all the time, I have whippets so have to be quick with the lead as he can be across a field in seconds. This man you met should be a bit quicker if he doesn't want a lawsuit or a large vets bill on his hands.

I am the owner of an agressive dog (dog-agression only) because he was attacked by boxers when about 7 months. Consequence of this: He thinks attack is the best defense! I work veryhard with him, to improve the situation.  Unfortunately for so many people this it is ''funny'' to let thier dogs ''take on'' a big rottweiler that on most occassions my dog's selfcontrol goes out of the window.
Thanks to these people I have to keep him on the lead, his recall is very good, except !! where dogs challenge him. No matter what size, we have had a Yorkshire Terrier running up to him snarling and growling and trying to bite him!!!  He pinned it down, no bite, just pinned him down, and of course the poepl who first told me: aww he only wants to play! When I asked him to keep theirs under control, now ofcourse gave me a mouthful. The Yorkie was only very soggy.  I refuse point blank to muzzle my dog, I have him under control, but if another dog runs at him, intending to bite, I want him to be able to defend himself. Most will run a mile if he so much as growls a warning, and before anybody gets upset or shoots me down, these are the exeptions, not regular occurences!!

I used to avoid other dogs, which is very difficult,  but he is getting so much better, if other dogs ignore him, he will ignore them as well.  But untill I can trust him 100% he will stay on the lead. :(