Hi it's me again,
we nearly lost our Cairn for the 2nd time today. He just shot off and disappeared. I stayed in the place that I had last seen him and wistled and called him for 10 mins. Eventually he came back but I really thought I had lost him. I am really concerned about letting him off the lead again in case we lose him, as he is hopeless with cars (see above post) and would certainly be killed if he got anywhere near a road. (I never walk him off the lead near a road) Are there any dog behaviourists out there who can give me help with this problem or the eating faeces/scared of cars post above?
Many thanks,
A

It would be safer for you to keep him on a long lead/lunge line until he has learnt to come back to you. Do you take him to training classes? If not it would be a good idea to look on the APDT website (Sorry i don't know the address) to find your nearest trainer.

We have been walking him off the lead for about 3 weeks now and it is only the last few days that he has run off. Before that he was kept on a 20ft retracting lead whenever we walked him and yes we do attend training classes with him. The 'running off' is unusual for him and obviously we won't be letting him off the lead again until we feel more confident about him coming back to us. I just wondered if anyone had any ideas to stop him running off I've heared it can be a Cairn trait.

I think it can be a terrier trait in general, i walk two Jack russells for someone regularly and i have to keep them on lead most of the time because they tend to run off after rabbits. Was there anything that may have made him run off, i.e. rabbits e.t.c

Nothing obvious, I think he just loved being in the woods where there must be millions of lovely scents for him to follow.

Andi,

You need to keep practicing the recall with him whilst he is on a long lead.  When he is *perfect* on the long lead - then and only then should let him free. 

Even so, most Cairns will never be totally trustworthy off lead.  I know several Cairn breeders who require all puppy purchasers to sign a contract which states that they will never let their dog off lead outside a fenced area. 

My Cairn is very clingy and not given to wandering.  The only time I ever let her off lead is when we go to a local common ground and there are lots of other dogs on the green.  She loves other dogs and her strongest drive is to be with them.  I also keep some very smelly treats in an open pack in my pocket, Friskies salmon cat treats.   This has the effect of keeping all the dogs on the green near me - and my Cairn with them.  :-)    I've never actually had to use the recall to get her back on the lead.   However, ever single time I have her out for a walk and she is on her long lead I practice it several times.   She comes back to me like she is jet propelled.  However, I would not trust her to come back if there was a distraction (squirrel, other dog, children, etc.).  And I would never dare let her off lead in the woods.

Stacey

Hi Stacey,
Really interesting to hear what you say both about breeders and not walking your Cairn off the lead in the woods. I'm starting to learn alot more about the terrier mentality now, still think they are fab little dogs. Oodles of character.
I THOUGHT I had him trained really well to come back to me on his lead, he was really obediant and came to me every time. It just shows how instinct can take over especially as they start to grow up and get more confident. Thanks for the tip about the cat treats too, I'll pop down to the shops later.
You mentioned 'recall' do you just mean calling your dog back to you?
Thanks for your time and help.
A

Andi I am afraid NO dog of ANY breed is trained to do ANYTHING at this age.  You have not even started the "kevin" period yet!  Recall training requires daily consistent, relentless training until at least 2; hopefully this will be a bit more realistic for you and the dog :D

I suppose there will be loud music and acne to deal with too......groan
A

Andi,

Yup, by recall I meant to call my dog back to me. 

No loud music and acne - but it often seems like adolescent dogs unlearn everything they learned and even pick up worse behaviour! So, if your dog's recall is not good now - it will get even "less good" in a couple of months.  

Stacey

Training a dog to do anything involves exposing them to many different situations and repeating the excercise many many times, ensuring the dog has no option but to do what *you* want (so he never learns anything you have to undo).  So training him to come back when on lead has not taught him to come back when off lead I'm afraid.  The long line will help with this, as he will learn to make his own decision (eventually!)  Yes, you are dealing with a certain amount of 'instinct' but you've never taught him to make his own decision to come back (and discover the rewards for doing so are far better than what the big wide world can offer).  Unfortunatly, now he's discovered how exciting it is out there your task may be harder :(

Digger,

"Yes, you are dealing with a certain amount of 'instinct' but you've never taught him to make his own decision to come back (and discover the rewards for doing so are far better than what the big wide world can offer)." 

There are breeds where you can never offer a reward that is better than what their instinct tells them is even better.  I can't remember who the poster is - but I know that their is a Sibe owner here who has pointed out several times that Sibes are one breed that can never be trusted off lead.  I would never test my Cairn's recall up against a rabbit or squirrel.  Neither would any of the Cairn owners I know who have done very well with their dogs in competitive obedience and tracking work.  It's a matter of knowing your dog and respecting breed traits.  You do your best to train your dog, but try never to put it in a situation where training is likely to fail.

Stacey

I guess I'll have to take my pet rabbit walking with us.
A

Andi just dont give up. We made the mistake Digger is talking about through not understanding dog development but Morse is now reliable on recall ( as much as possible with youth ) because we were ruthless and vigilant and learned to spot situations before he does which means I can NEVER relax and toddle along the way people with older dogs do, but at least we stay out of trouble. Keep at it with a long line or whatever works,- Im thinking squeaky toy or toy rabbit on rope to be whirled as an attraction - be joyful calling back and it will work out for you eventually. :)

Hi Lorelei,
We won't be giving up that's for sure,
Thanks for the advice,
A

Andi, do you think you could be trying to run before you can walk? Or is it leap?  I always get my sayings mixed up!

I just say this because your pup is 4 months, and as well as all these walks off the lead, you also mention about taking him/her into town on the other thread.

Millie is 5 1/2 months old and she hasn't been to town yet and has only been off the lead in exceptional circumstances, and I'm not in any hurry.  I know you have to get them used to things (like town) when they're young, and taking Millie through the town would be so beneficial to me - most of my visitors come through the town from the train station and I like to go and meet them, plus Pets at Home is the other side of the high street, but I know Millie wouldn't cope with this yet so we're building up to it gradually.  Whilst she has now managed to take cars in her stride, she still freaks out near the main road with the fast/noisy cars, so I often just take her up there to stand nearby and then go home again for a treat.  I have also taken her the back way towards town, and stopped near the town to wait for my OH to get off the train where he parks his car - noisy cars but hardly any people - I know the high street is just going to flip her out, all those hundreds of legs to sniff out, she's going to think its her birthday, so I daren't take her there yet, I want to do it in stages, with the amount of people she meets at once building up. And if it takes another couple of months, then so be it!

I also refused point blank to let her off the lead until she was MUCH older and was shocked when reading the age that some people let their puppies off the lead, and decided I didn't care if I was being too overprotective, I just felt she was far too young.  I was planning to wait anything up to a year old before I let her off!

Anyway, two weeks ago we went to the seafront path with my sister, sister's OH and their dog Max who Millie is obsessed with, and when it was clear, nobody else around and there was nowhere to run off to, I decided (against my OH's wishes!) to let her off the lead - the only reason being is that Max comes back on demand in an instant, and Millie only goes wherever he goes, she is so in love!  Even so, every few minutes I would call her back, just to make sure.

The following week we went to the woods (well, a country park so it has defined pathways and fenced off areas) and we let her off again, on her own, and she behaved beautifully, coming back every time we called her because a dog was approaching, sticking with us the whole time, turning round every few seconds to make sure we were there.  We got lost in there and ended up walking for about an hour but she behaved the whole time.  OH was dead chuffed "I always wanted a dog I could walk off the lead, never could with my others!".  However I warned him that this wouldn't last, that I had read it on here in fact that once they get a bit more confident things change, plus with her age she was about to 'turn naughty'!.  Sure enough, yesterday in the woods, she caught sight of a Collie and whoosh she was off and didn't stop!  The path we had taken was empty but as we rounded a bend there were about 3 other dogs/owners which is how come she had seen him before we had a chance to take 'evasive action'.  As I went running down the paths trying to catch up, I had to suffer the embarrassment of one dog owner saying "didn't finish the obedience classes then, eh?"

Thankfully the collie hadn't gone too far and when he stopped, she stopped and got bored and came running back to find us, but needless to say she went straight on the lead for the rest of the walk and will remain back on the lead in the future.  From now on, it will only be on walks with Max that she ever gets off the lead, and only for the purpose of recall practice while he is there as 'back-up' to bring her back.

Don't be in too much of a hurry to walk him/her off the lead, my philosophy is I've got many years ahead of me for that, so right now I'm concentrating more on the training to make sure I've still got a dog to walk in the years ahead, if you get what I mean.

Oooh a thought which Lorelei reminded me of by mentioning a toy.  I read on here once that someone had bought a small toy (small enough to fit in their pocket) which she would let the dog play with for a few minutes, then take away and put out of its reach, but in a place where the dog could clearly see it, so it could become obsessed about playing with it, the 'holy grail' so to speak, the one toy they couldn't get their paws on, but desperately wanted.

That way, the owner has something to carry in her pocket when out on a walk to pull out in emergencies that is sure to get her dog's attention every time.  I bought an 'emergency toy' in the week and am now in the process of building up the interest in it, so maybe this is something you might want to try?  Might work, might not, worth a shot!

Hi Jess,
I normally take a big bag of doggy treats in my pocket and leave the top of the bag hanging out of my pocket I normally just need to rustle the bag a bit and he is at my feet in an instant. It didn't work yesterday tho.
I will give the toy idea a go tho, thanks
Andrea

It can take a long time to get reliable recall.....

I have a rescue cocker (aged 7) who I've had for a nearly a year.  He can not be let off the lead because he chases anything, gets a scent and follows it, and can really run.  Luckily, I have access to a large field and are able to do off-lead training.  However, for months, once he was on a scent, recall was useless - he would run past me and wave!.  Finally, I can get him to stop in mid-scent and come back - he gets a treat everytime. 

I still can't walk him off-lead in parks, woods, etc. - the new scents are too inviting.

Unfortunately, he's clearly developing arthritis, so before long I will be able to let him off lead :(

Hi jessthe pest, I'm curious as to why you are reluctant to socialise Millie in town. Usually the sooner you introduce them to new places and situations, the better. Guide Dog puppies, who need to be as bombproof as possible, are carried around busy town centres from 6 weeks old, and on the pavement as soon as their injections allow. The longer you leave it the harder it will be.

I absolutely agree with Jeangenie; the window of socialisation closes at 16 weeks and that is why it is SO important to take your puppy everywhere possible in order that it grows into a competent and confident adult.  The longer you wait the less "bomb proof" they are; having had a dog that came to me at 10 months and had hardly seen anything it was extremely difficult taking him anywhere, whereas my own dog was taken to the town, country fairs you name it she saw it from Da1 1 (never waited for the vaccinations) is totally bombproof and has a brilliant temperament with everyone and everything.

Well to get there, we have to go along the main road which she point quite often blank refuses to do, so I am working on that to start with.

The second reason is that she is obsessed with people - every person in the street is a potential cuddle, and she will often sit down if she sees a person in the distance and refuse point blank to move until they get near (then walk straight past ignoring her obviously :-D)

Therefore, its not a fear of the town that I am worried about but the fact she will enjoy it so much.  Its a pedestrianised high street so there are people everywhere walking in every direction and she will just be a nightmare flapping and jumping and going nuts.  I thought it would be wise to get her used to behaving around people first (although this is not as easy as it seems!) before inflicting her on the poor shoppers.

On a plus note, we actually live 5-10 mins walk from the high street, so where we live is very built up and busy so she's not just used to quite countryside areas, its just the high street I am worrying about.

If she were mine I would take her there as soon as possible (maybe drive and park in town?) and see what happens. You may find that she is so astonished to see so many people that she behaves beautifully!

Trust me, people are the best thing in her world, even better than 'Puppy Tubos' or chicken!!

Oh, she's also been to places like Pets at Home from as soon as she could go out, which as is probably the case of most branches (she's been to two), are on big industrial parks of big stores, big car parks and people, and we don't park right outside so she has to walk right across the car park etc, so she has seen 'busy places' so hopefully experiences like that have set her up well for the future, but the 'people' are more scattered and spread out than her high street.

I really want to get her into the high street, but I don't drive and its quite industrial round here.  One way to go is via the main road at the top of my road with big heavy lorries and a railway line and you can guarantee everytime I take her up there, two lorries, a bus and two trains will all come along at the same time and she starts panicking and squealing and pulling for home.  There is another route, past the park which is much quieter, unfortunately, there's a large regeneration project now taking place and since the bulldozers moved in, she won't go in that direction either.  I've had to get past it before to get her to the 'salon' for an appointment and had to pick her up to get past it, and she just freaked trying to jump out of my arms (which would not have been the safest option!) so I don't know if that has had the same effect as 'comforting', hopefully not.

Either way, there's lots of obstacles to overcome before we even get near to town, hmmmm.!

My dog is fine with people on pavements and loves the hustle and bustle AND all the attention he gets it's just the cars he has a problem with.
A

I know, I realise that, sorry I went off on a tangent.

A,

A pet rabbit does not act, behave or even smell the same as a wild rabbit.  You should watch your Cairn very closely with the rabbit, however, they will not necessarily be the best of friends.

Stacey

Sorry Stacey, there are some INDIVIDUALS who will never find what they are looking for with their humans (but is that the humans fault??).  I know somebody who has 5 Huskies, all of whom have off lead excercise with no recall problems - you can not make blanket declarations about different breeds like that.  However, a new owner does need to know the breeds inclinations and work with them.  If they aren't prepared to over come this problem, then they can label it as 'instinct' and live with it.

I will continue to work on this problem despite the 'walkabout' Cairn breed trait. Many thanks to you all for all your advice and interest. They were all good value points.
Andi

Digger,

I did not claim to be an expert on Sibes - as I said I was talking about another poster.  I don't know what you mean by "there are some INDIVIDUALS who will never find what they are looking for with their humans (but is that the humans fault??)", because I am talking about Cairns and not people.   

However, I know a little bit about Cairns, thanks to being active in the breed for a good number of years.  And learning from breeders and owners who have been "in Cairns" for twenty, thirty and more years.   I have not met anyone in Cairns, including those who do competitive obedience with their dogs, who would say that their dogs have perfect recall in all situations. 

To quote from Cairns in Particular, Hints & Advice, published by the The Cairn Terrier Relief Fund, U.K., "Another important matter is that you must never, never, however well trained the dog, let if off the leash on any sort of road: because it only needs a new exciting smell or a cat on the opposite side of the road for its life to end suddenly under an approaching car."   The "must never, never, however well trained the dog, let if off leash on any sort of a road" is in bold print.   Why?  Because Cairns are not a breed of dog that will stick to your side like glue or can be expected to respond instantly to a recall command when its hunting instinct is aroused -- no matter how well trained.

This is from the American Cairn Terrier Club, "Meet the Cairn" page of their web site, "If there is no fenced yard, the Cairn MUST be exercised on a leash, as it is impossible to train a Cairn to resist the urge to chase squirrels, cats, rabbits, other dogs, etc. (remember, Cairns were bred to hunt!)."

Sorry, but I can make blanket declarations about breeds that I know - and I know Cairns very well.  I never make blanket declarations about a specific dog of any breed, because within the same breed there can be wide variations in behaviour.   It is irresponsible to suggest that an owner/trainer -- if only they tried hard enough or knew enough about training -- can overcome instinctive behaviour in every situation.  A Cairn should only be allowed off lead when if it fails to respond to a recall it is not going to put its own life or anyone else's in danger.  And if the owner chooses to let their Cairn off lead in an area where there is a lot of prey - then the owner better be prepared for a long wait before their dog decides it's time to go home.

Stacey

And many Sibe breed clubs/web sites will also repeat the same advice about Sibes - but it IS possible to have a Sibe (or any breed of dog you care to mention) that does have a reliable recall.  I believe it's a shame to label ALL individual dogs of a certain breed as unreliable off lead, as with many dindiviual dogs it is possible to have a sufficiently good relationship that recall can be relied on - my first dog was part fox hound - when I first had him his recall was non existant, and it took several years to build up our relationship to such a degree that he could be relied on - but we got there in the end, because I didn't give up......

Digger,

I think it comes down to respecting a breed for what it is and then applying common sense.  I practice the recall with my Cairn *every* time she is out on a walk with me.  I make it a pleasure for home to get back to me - always praise and always a treat and always a wagging tail.  She thinks the recall is a fun experience.  If I followed the breed advice and even my own experience to the letter I would never let her off the lead, but I do.  The point is I do so only in situation where I have everything working for me.  No cars.  Open green full of dogs where a rabbit or squirrel would have to be suicidal to enter. I only let her off when their are other suitable dogs for her to mix with (not every dog appreciates energetic terrier play.)

In terms of her individual temperament, she has the typical Cairn confidence, but also has the tendency to want to stay close to me all the time, which is less typical.   I know the breed and I also know my dog - so I adjust accordingly, but I never forget her genetic heritage and instinct.  She will never have a recall that is reliable enough - in the face of a distraction (squirrel, etc.) - for me to risk having her off lead near a road or in the woods.  I bow to hundreds of years of collective experience from people who have spent the better part of their adult lives living with and learning about the breed.

Stacey

Jessthepest - my retriever was a bit like your dog as well, wanting to jump all over people and getting so excited, but i found that when i took her to town she calmed down incredibly quickly, because she soon learn that actually, not everyone is going to approach her and cuddle. Yes, many will do because puppies are cute, but a lot are not interested or too busy to stop and just smile at you. But at least the puppy realises that people aren't a precious comodity, there are plenty around, but they aren't all interested in dogs and so calm down.

Ok I am going to make it my mission to get her to town!

I did try yesterday but she would NOT go up to the main road.  Its 20 seconds from where I live and it took 20 minutes to get up to it and to get her to walk a tiny away along (about 20 seconds further).  She walked all the way down this road almost as far as the high street about 4 weeks ago, and used to walk along part of it for local walks but has now decided the main road is not for her.  We only got as far as we did as she had her halter on so she couldn't pull away, normally in her collar we only get to the corner of my street because she pulls and squeals so loudly in her desperation to get away that I have to give in and take her home.

It would really help if OH didn't work all the hours god sends so that he could drive us to the high street but so far he hasn't been around during 'shopping hours', and I don't know a single other person in this whole borough!  As well as doing the high street, I want to be able to take her on trains but I can't get her anywhere near the station yet, and now she has started freaking out at the trains at the end of our road which she didn't do before.  That may have been part of the problem yesterday, as a train went past as we left the front gate. 

Jessthepest,

Just take it very slowly with her, if you are have the patience she will get accustomed to the noise of traffic.  Don't make a big deal about it.  Look at her and figure out how she changes right before she reacts, you might see her tense or she might slow down.   Right at that point, stand still and give her a little treat, a fuss or some play.   Next day see if you can take her just a little bit farther. Don't push her.  It might take a couple of weeks, or longer, but eventually you will get there with her.

Stacey