Hi Dawn, an interesting point - me thinks we could go on for ages discussing what we see as cruel ;) - I must admit I can honestly say I haven't seen a piaffe in the field as yet :D  A word I love is anthropomorphism!!!  Using/forcing human emotions on animals! I know for a fact we are all guilty of that, I know I am!  My dog is my substitute child!  But I feel that horses in particular suffer at the hands of 'over-caring' owners without their even realising.  I haven't been on a yard where ALL the horses (mostly livery) are free of vices (weaving especially so) and this is IMHO due to excessive periods of time in a stable, deprived of the opportunity to behave in a natural manner, or interact with their own kind.  Last year I saw rugged horses in the first week of September (and last Sep was the hottest we had for ages) - Those animals were not exposed to the elements long enough to give them any natural protection whatsoever, never mind those rug's that are ill fitting!  And then there is the horse that run's away from pain or ill fitting tack, so it gets a stronger bit, noseband or strange gadget   Horses really put up with us that is for sure and to have another species on their back is the most unnatural thing for them, yet they carry on.  I think a domestic horse galloping as a herd is one of the most natural things we can allow it to do and I sure as hell dont think a mini-man on its back can successfully steer let alone force it to run and jump...But as I have mentioned I would like to see the whip gone...But hey thats just me!
Sarah :)
ps. Most dressage riders wear spurs

theres another sport  that involve horses , which is! crewl  . grand national is once a year not every sunday! .
Look horse's love jumping and racing . ok there flight animals but they dont carry on in the race till the end unless they love it , plenty ran away from the racing horses ,
dont tell me there treated crewl , look at the good condition they are , some may be stabled but they get more then enough galloping time ,
We could say crateing a dogs the same . if it comes down to puting them in a stable

"another sport that involve horses, which is! crewl . grand national is once a year not every sunday!" What sport every Sunday are you talking about?

Horses don't LOVE anything - they are not capable of such an emotion. They don't know any different :rolleyes: If you were kept stabled for 24 x 7 or even overnight you would enjoy a good gallop.

Honestly LL, you need to present a structured argument for me to respond :)

chloeh you know what sport im on about ;)the one we talked about before recently on the news . oh and your argument about the horses being kept in the stable all the time . sorry but they get more then enough time galloping threw those lovely feilds , once a day half the flippin day ! look how well conditioned they are. ok dogs and crated is the same thing whats your thoughts there . same as stables?

If you are talking about hunting - the point to point racers have to hunt to qualify? and most National runners probably do aswell

probably < you dont know just carry on making things up i like facts

Hi Sarah :) Hmmm. I own 4 horses and I spend a lot of time watching them. Be it the breed - ID, ID X, Arab, Connie x Welshie they do NOT gallop for any other reason than one of their herd members calling them (like tonight - 3 had gone into anothr field and left one behind - she called them and they shot off to her), or something spooking one of them and they have an instinctive reaction. Mine do not gallop to stretch their legs, or buck (unless there is a disagreement) because they live out 24 x 7 on 14 acres and they do not feel the need to. They are also very aware that they do not want to cause themselves any injuries.

My point is this - who are we to say racehorses "love" to jump and run? All my horses ask for is food, natural shelter, to reproduce (3 mares :rolleyes: and a gelding) and a quiet life. They don't care if they go out on a hack or jump or whatever...I know they don't love me - they associate me with food and a head rub and thats it! :) What I do agree with is that NO horse should be stabled 24 x 7. I also have to say that I am not "anti racing" per se - but I do not like the National and thats that!

Totally fair comment :) - your horses must be very content equines...Certainly very beautiful - I saw them on your site :D
Sarah

Race horses get the very best of care, they want for NOTHING.  The best food, vetereinary attention, experienced people caring for them etc...  The race course is what these animals are all about, their purpose, and doing what they do best earns them the very best care.  Now every year there are thousands of horses and ponies found cut to bits, have broken legs, have gone down and can't get up, in fields, where for the most part they are unnattended. 

I must admit I often see horses running, bucking and kicking in the fields, enjoying themselves, their very construction means they are bulit for athletisism and speed.
Dawn.

Yes well, Dawn B you have proved in the past you have very opinionated views. You should try taking those rosy coloured spectacles off once in a while. For example, I was offered an ex racer who was so thin she could barely stand, had been left out 24 x 7 with no rugs and no hard feed - with her field mate (another ex racer). The owner had taken them to rescue as he was about to get done by the RSPCA. Unfortunately I couldn't take her as mine live out 24 x 7 and she would have needed to be in at night to try to get some weight back on her.

Just because they get decent treatment when they are racing, does not mean they spend their twilight years in happy retirement with the same treatment.

There you go Chloe again, "EX" racers.  Are we not referring to horses that are racing?  It is up to the owners of ANY animal to ensure its welfare, when they are sold on, be it a horse or any other animal, what happens thereafter is neither here nor there. If that owner believes they have re-homed the horse in the best situation then his part is done.  Just because your horses live out in all weathers doesn't mean its the right thing to do, I wouldn't of wanted mine out in snow and other extremes, I preferred them to be in a warmer, drier environment at those times, but then thats me.  As for opinionated, wake up Chloe, I think you hold the record on this site for getting threads locked!
Dawn.

She was an ex racer - who still lived WITH HER RACING OWNER/TRAINER - up until he was about to get done for cruelty.

As for the thread locking - substantiate that comment please. Evidence, times and proof required before you go throwing wild accusations around.

There will always be horrible people who illtreat their animals, whatever the species. People like that shouldn't have responsibility for a dead stick insect. But luckily they are a minority, who are rightly despised by everyone.

Anyone who supports a race notorious for its fatalities is either cynically using and abusing the horse for their own purposes, whether for money or a vicarious thrill, or is ignorant about the reality of it. Nuff said :)

Being given the best food and medical attention doesn't always mean a contented horse - how many of them have anti weaving devices fitted to either their stable or them?  Most flat race horses will hardly see a piece of grass (except for maybe half an hours restricted grazing a day).  Steeplechasers and hurdlers do tend to fair better as they are often turned out during the day, even during the season, and between seasons will be turned away.  Their training often consists of hunting to hounds as well as laps and laps of the gallops.  A flat race horse will race on all weather tracks during the winter, and grass courses during the season (March to late October). 

Yes, most horses will continue with the 'herd' - is this because they enjoy it?  Or because of the flight/fight response?  Or simply because they are driven by addrenaline?

If we want to talk about 'cuelty' - the most abnormal behaviour in domesticated horse populations (weaving, cribbing, wind sucking etc.) was witnesses in riding school horses, second was flat race horses........  Horses in travelling Zoos and steeplechase horses were way down the line in the research by Marthe Kiley Worthington........

Chloe,i agree with everything you have said :)I dont understand how people can enjoy watching animals suffer   What did you mean when you said you couldnt take in the ex-racehorse because she had to be stabled to put on weight,what difference would it make if she were in or out? Just curious is all ;)

christine

Hi

The horse I was offered was painfully thin. She had been left out unrugged and unfed over winter with her fieldmate, before being handed into rescue. It was coming up to winter here, and although my horses live out - they are Irish Draughts, an arab (who is more capable of living out in the cold than any of them!) and a welshie so they are much better at coping than pure TB's. Personally, I wouldn't want a TB to live out 24 x 7 in all weathers, and I would have needed to bring her in at night to ensure she didn't shiver and lose more weight as I was trying to put it on...plus, she would have been miserable stabled alone as the others all stay out whatever the weather (they are rugged with natural shelter and a field shelter they never use).

Does that clarify it a bit for you? :)

Yes it does Chloe,thnanks for explaining :D

hold your head up high,stick to your beliefs!

best wishes,
christine

how rude is that comment i cant belive that  , im sorry dawn b ,mabe chloeh will realise that not everyones a sheep and people have other views . glad you "rose "above the comment
( pardon the pun :D )

If thats not a contradictory post within itself I do not know what is.

LL - let me explain in very simple terms. I am not the one who is the "sheep" in this debate. YOU ARE. You are following the majority in supporting a race that is notorious for fatalities. You do NOTHING for your cause.

Oh, and I believe (to coin a phrase) YOU hold the record for locked posts.

Have a nice day now :)

actully these race horses arent kept in 24/7  like i said before mabe some race owners do but the ones i know , do let there horses out in the day in by night , and there are bad and good owners , im sure there are terrible dane owners who keep there danes in a room and dont let em out for a walk , but i wouldent tar chloeh with the same brush . if these were facts all race horses are kept in then i wouldent mind but its not!
unless you have been in a raceing stables you cant say . the one ive been in they had there horses out in the feilds , so stop trying to tar everyone with the same dirty brush shame on you 
Ok i may be a sheep now , first time  for everything .;) course you know what  sport i brought up in the last grandnational post , you think everyone should agree with you , yet your willing to watch animals be ripted apart . who has the morals now
haha locked posts because of me i dont think so , normaly a debate is a debate , thats what the forums for :D ! in fact i probably have a few people watching right now , our last little debate i had 8 people email me . shame they dont feel like they can voice what they feel. isent it , any of you watching now please write what you feel dont be scared
ps i dont give a dam how many threads are locked by me , i say what i feel , there shouldent be a forum if people dont like other peoples opinions
im off the the gym c ya later tc ;)

You must not support certain elements of racing then - seeing as they have to hunt a minimum of 3 times a year to qualify?

your saying to be a racehorse you have to hunt ( i dont think so!) get some facts then ill talk with you about it 3 times a year rolflmao

LL - why do you think they are called NATIONAL HUNT races? You get YOUR facts right - I'll be waiting here for you to apologise.

that will never happen :P  they do not all hunt , im off now but ill find out for sure dont you worry ;) byee

Pay special attention to this:

Point-to-Pointing: Facts and Figures

4. Point-to-Pointing is an amateur form of steeplechasing, regulated by the Jockey Club. To qualify to race in a Point-to-Point a horse must have been hunted a minimum of seven times in the current season. Certification to this effect is issued by the relevant Hunt and lodged with the Jockey Club. A total of 4,106 horses qualified with 190 Hunts in 1999.

5. Each Point-to-Point rider is required to be a member of or subscriber to a recognised Hunt. In 1999 the Jockey Club issued 1,084 riders' qualification certificates.

6. At the present time Point-to-Pointing is a vibrant and popular sport attracting crowds totalling around 700,000 every year. Point-to-Points are designed in part to raise funds for the organising hunt, but also to provide a competitive arena for the participants and a fun day out in the countryside for the spectators. The audience takes in a wide cross section of the population of all ages, attracting both rural and urban based families. In 2000 there are 209 meetings programmed, held at around 120 different venues around the country. Every meeting is well attended by bookmakers, refreshment vendors, stall holders selling clothing and equestrian items, and sideshows.

Taken from here

LL, ChloeH is absolutley right. To be entered in a National Hunt race the horse has to have been hunted!

Lovelylady.
Chloe is ALWAYS right!  She is notorious for it!  If she doesn't agree with it, then it is wrong.  Nobody is allowed to have an opinion if it differs to hers, shame isn't it.

Most national hunt horses have the summer "off" many spending the time at their owners premises, before coming back into training at the end of the season.  There are a lot of flat horses, particularly the older ones that do this too.  This however is nothing to do with the original post was that no horses were hurt, they were not.

One thing Chloe, you mention about the appalling condition of the horse you had and the other one you could not take.  Did you report the owner, and what charges were made against them?
Dawn.

That's not fair, Dawn. There's no need to snipe like that. Chloe has her views just like everybody else. The facts she quotes about NH horses being required to hunt is completely accurate, so lovelylady's remarks were completely out of order. This was a sensible discussion before then.

No JJ it is the truth.

My original comments were about the Grand National, the atmosphere etc.... I did NOT say one negative comment at all!  Chloe had already started digging, at other peoples comments.
Dawn.