Hi, I lost one of my twelve week old puppies on the 29th of December 03. She received her final vaccination on the 24th of December along with her litter brother. Her name was Vera, brother is called Ozzie. She was one of a litter of four Cocker Spaniel puppies that i bred. All appeared normal with both puppies although Vera seemed a little bit lethargic which was unusual as she was usually a real live wire. I put this down to vaccination but wasn,t worried as she seemed very healthy in every other way. She was eating very well and her tail was still buzzing she was such a happy puppy. On the 28th of December Vera ate all of her meals but at bedtime she seemed a little unhappy and very tired. I put her to bed with her brother Ozzie and went to bed myself. Next morning i got up early 6.30 to let them both out and found that Vera was dead, still curled up in her basket, still warm to touch. She looked as if she was just asleep. I was hysterical
and immediately ran to phone the vet. We brought Vera,s body to the vets that morning, the vet tried to persuade me not to have a post mortem as she said it was highly unlikely that it was the vaccination. I had to know what caused Vera,s death as i had also to rule out any hereditary cause. The post mortem result is four pages long and it seems that the cause was cardiac failure, due to gross cardiac lesion . causes could be viruses, bacteria and protozoa due to the nature of the inflammation the cause is most likely to be Pyogenic bacteria, however special stains failed to demonstrate bacteria within the tissue and it is dissapointing that bacterial culture is also negative. To cut an even longer story short we know what killed Vera but not if it was the vaccine that caused the damage. We have never received a bill for Vera,s post mortem and i continue to use the same vets for my other dogs. I can,t blame anyone for Vera,s death and will continue to have all of my dogs vaccinated. I needed to post this as i wonder how many other unrecorded deaths due to possible vaccination there is out there. I will never forget that morning when i found Vera dead in her basket or the shock i was in for days afterward. Her brother Ozzie and the other puppies in this litter are fine. Ozzie remains with us and is my shadow.

No advice, but much sympathy for you...how horrendous for you... enjoy Ozzie, and at least she went lying next to her brother, all warm and comfortable and loved...xx

Don't know which vaccine you use but I use the dead vaccine.  Lost a few Pom's many years ago after having their vaccinations.

What a sad story. sending you sincere sympathy for your loss.

Some years ago I had two pups  Merlin and Katie vaccinated at the same time they were fine but when merlin was 10 months old he started to limp so we took him to the vets for an Xray we picked him up later and he was fine then he started being very ill I knew straight away by the smell that it was parvo we rushed him back to the Vets but he died in the night,I was so upset I couldnt understand why a vaccinated dog would get parvo I was advised to get katie blood tested to see if she had immunity and she had the test came back immune dog so now I wanted to know why Merlin wasnt immune even though they were done with vaccine from the same batch at the same time.
The vaccine company would not admit that its  vaccines are not foolproof and said that it was something to do with how long young puppies carry natural immunity from their mums.
Now I never vaccinated my pups till they are twelve weeks old and never take them out till they are 5 months also do a test which will tell me if they are immune it can be done two weeks after the last vaccination and if not immune andother vaccine given.
Its a worry when we do all we can to ensure our puppies are healthy but vaccination is not foolproof.
Id like to ask anyone do they always have boosters done? if so how long do you keep them up for life or till a certian age,how many use natural boosters etc. and who doesnt belive or have faith in the vaccines.

Louie, I'm so sorry about your little pup. I hope Ozzie has a long and healthy life and brings you much joy. :)

Mattie, I only gave Bess puppy vaccs no boosters(and the same with my last Springer). I think they are the cause of a lot of illness and deaths in dogs and I don't believe anyone really understands the effects that they have. I certainly don't believe anything the manufacturers say, their interest obviously being financial, and vets just follow the manufacturers guidelines (and sometimes not even that...giving vaccs to poorly dogs). They've been convinced for years that those guidelines are right and yet now are beginning to question them. 

Kath.

Why not read Catherine O'Driscoll's book called The darling Buds of May - Vaccination, what Vets do not tell you, then make your mind up. It makes very good convincing reading.  I believe she researched this subject and published the book some 8 years ago, how very true her fears have become.

I believe dogs are vaccinated too much, it has become too routine. I am particualry concerned with puppies that are sold through retail outlets, some are vaccinated (particulary ones from Ireland and Wales) with a vaccine that has been brought over the counter in Ireland or over the Internet. If the vaccine is not stored correctly, as what frequently happens the puppy is vaccinted by the breeder and when the purchaser, after buying a puppy from a retail outlet takes the puppy to their own vet he does not trust the vaccination card/certificate because it is not signed by a vet and re vaccinates the puppy. This is sometimes doubling up on the vaccine.

The same applies to the stray dogs in Wales they are routinely vaccinated before the English rescues will accept them, this is sometimes with a 7 in 1 vaccine.  Not all of the dogs are healthy at the time of vaccine, some again will be re vaccinated. This is detrimental to the welfare of the puppy/dog as each individual animal health status is not taken into account at the time. Although I realise in this situation it is difficult to get the right balance, to not vaccinate could be harmful but to over vaccinate is in my opinion very dangerous.     

I've never understood why vets vaccinate sickly animals. Surely they whoudl know better?

Jesse

My only comment on Catherine O'Driscoll is that she seems to cherry pick the information she quotes. If it does not back up her theories then it seems to be ignored.

Most of you will not remember the days before the vaccines although rather more of you will remember the advent of parvo. Before a vaccine was developed an outbreak of parvo was almost invariably a 100% loss of puppies! Make no mistake, vaccines have saved hundreds of times, if not thousands of times more dogs lives than they have been responsible for taking.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the way forward.

Best wishes, John

I absolutely agree!  Whilst I do feel we over vaccinate - I really don't feel that annual boosters are necessary for the dog's entire life - I do think that puppy injections and first booster are essential.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

I agree, John. The only dog my family has lost to one of the 'vaccinable' diseases was in the pre-vaccine days. None of them since have ever suffered any side-effects from boostering, and I haven't stopped annually boostering before the age of 14 years. I'm not prepared to take the risk.

This reminds me - it's nearly 10 years since my last tetanus booster. I must make myself an appointment at the doctor.

I went to see my nurse a couple of weeks ago for a tetanus booster and was told that after 5 you will have a lifetimes immunity and any more could start to affect the immune system. She would not let me have another! Did you know the latest tetanus vaccine now includes diphtheria vaccine? We never know what we are putting in our bodies these days!!!

Best wishes, John

I haven't had 5 yet John! ;)

I'm considering having another polio vaccine because I hope to be visiting the latest family babies soon, and adults have been known to catch polio from their recently immunised babies. The pre-school 'sugar-lump' drops (boosters from when we were small babies) we all receive does not provide life-long immunity.
:)

I've had my 5. Started falling off motor cycles at an early age. The revaccination used to be ever 5 years so I've actually had more than 5 so no more for me.

Best wishes, John

I too was refused a tetanus vaccine a few yrs back like John because I'd had more than enough was what they said. 

Seems, I found out a couple of days ago, that some of my autoimmune problems are now being linked to over vaccination during my service career, back then you rolled your sleeves up and walked thru 4 people who stuck you in each arm and even your ear for blood typing never had a clue what they vacinated us for.  I did have a sever reaction to the TABT jab put me in hospital for a few days with an arm the size of the michelin man's arm and lots of passing out for no reason and with no warning - something similar to what I am going thru again now but without a vaccine to set it off or a localised reaction.

I vaccinate the dogs as puppies then again at 15 - 18 mths then nothing until they are between 3 - 4 yrs old, if my vet advises me of an local problem then I reconsider but as yet haven't opted for an extra dose.

No vaccine is foolproof for humans, dogs, or cats; some do not take, some may trigger auto immune responses from predisposed animals, and some animals are allergic/intolerant of the vaccine "carrier"; we all have to make a decision after carrying out a risk analysis and balance these against benefits/drawbacks.  All animals, even from the same litters, have differing immune responses.

Some dogs/humans will never become "immune" to certain diseases no matter how many times they are jabbed!

Some of us have to have our dogs vaccinated even if we would prefer they were not as many societies entry forms require it and if we use kennels (which in some cases is unavoidable) then they too require proof of vaccination.

Unfortunately, as my homoeopathic vet said, there is no documented PROOF that nosodes actually work, and so there are not always easy answers.

As for never taking pups out until they are 5 months old, I think that is potentially more damaging than the vaccination question!

>>>>>>>>>As for never taking pups out until they are 5 months old, I think that is potentially more damaging than the vaccination question! <<<<<<<<<,

I meant not take out in public parks etc..  they have their trips to the vets etc.. we  have been lucky enough to have a  lots of space  I assure you my dogs are well socialised and I have owned dogs over 25 years its works for me what works for you is your business >>potentially more damaging than the vaccine <<< is a strange remark
Also consider in my breed labrador over excersising when a young puppy causes no end of problems they grow at a massive rate very  quickly  people tend to treat them as mature dogs when in fact they are not mature till at least 18 months IMHO Also I believe the many hip problems in Labs are due not always to bad breeding but the allowing jumping down from heights,running riot ,rough play etc..
people cant wait to get their puppy out to show off their new baby and its not always the right thing,I knew a top breeder in Labs and old fashioned breeder who sadly is no longer around he didnt even put a lead on apup till 5 months.

Each to their own way of doing thing 

I did not actually say "exercising" but taking them out; in order that they are adequately socialised.  I absolutely agree that most puppies are over exercised and most adults under exercised.  However many dogs are severely under socialised and hence present with a number of behaviour problems having not been exposed to the ordinary mayhem of life to produce bomb proof dogs, eg people, traffic, dogs, animals of all descriptions of all kinds etc.

More dogs are euthanased due to behaviour problems than anything else, that is what I meant by not taking dogs out and about before they are 5 months being more dangerous :D  The window of socialisation closes at 20 weeks and therefore it is imperative that a heavy duty campaign of socialisation occurs within this period if dogs are to optimise their behaviour patterns.

My dogs are not "exercised" as such under 6 months old, no need to :D

However this is JMHO :D

I agree with you entirely on this, tohme. To optimise a dog's chances of being confident in strange situations it needs to be exposed to as many as possible while it is a young pup. Leaving it till later can cause very many deep-seated problems, as appears to be the case with the dog on another thread.

>>> The window of socialisation closes at 20 weeks and therefore it is imperative that a heavy duty campaign of socialisation occurs within this period if dogs are to optimise their behaviour patterns. <<<

I cant understand this statement sorry are you saying they will not learn to socialise after 20 weeks?

http://www.parkvets.com/clientinformation-socialisepup.html

perhaps the above will link will help.  Jean Donaldson explains this period in much more and better detail in her EXCELLENT book called the Culture Clash where she explains that all animals have a maximum socialisation period; this is essential for their survival as otherwise, for example, deer would be nuzzling up to wolves when they appeared :D 

There are several "critical" periods in puppies development and this is one of them.

HTH

Yes, they can learn to socialise after this time, but it takes longer and is harder to achieve. Much more effort is required on the part of the owner than would have been earlier in the pup's life.
:)

The vaccine that was used on this occasion was Duramune. She was microchipped and health checked, eyes, ears, teeth, skin, heart, lungs, abdomen, nails, as well everything was fine apparently. I have to say that i never had problems with vaccine before this happened. A Lady who bought a puppy from me 6 Years ago ( we have become good friends over the years ) brought her ( sophie ) for a hair cut 3 weeks ago. Last week there was a ring on my door bell and when i answered it there was Jean with two bags in her hands and tears running down her face. When i brought her inside she told me Sophie was dead it was a week after her booster. The symtoms were very similiar to those of Vera,s only Sophie started with a cough the day before she died but Jean said she had seemed fine apart from that the night before. Sophie was bearly alive when Jean found her  in her basket the next morning, and they had rushed her straight to the vets. Sophie died in Jeans arms on the way to the vet. They didn,t have a post mortem done as Jeans husband didn,t want that.

Oh No thats awful we really need to find out if we are doing right with boosters mattie my older bitch hasnt had a booster sinec she was 4 she is now ten but the young ones do im worried now

For years now I have stopped vaccinating at around 5 or 6 years old. The only part of the vacc which I was told really the only part which needed renewing was the Lepto which they did not do separately. Later I had reason to phone a friend in GWP's and she told me that her vet will give just the Lepto part. Because of what I do my dogs are always around where rats are likely to be found so I do believe that part is important to me.

Best wishes, John

I'm glad to hear you and Mattie say that.

I used to have my boys done every year, but then read a book on it and suddenly put the nasty skin problems suffered by my old chocolate, together with the exact time of his boosters, and stopped.

Any pups I have are done, once possibly twice, then no more.

On discussing it with a vetinary friend over dinner, he was also of the opinion that no enough research is done into the actual need to vaccinate yearly.  I find it hard to believe that it is really, truly necessary.

I am very sorry to hear that the puppy died.

Hi Mattie, i,m really sorry if i have worried you. I will continue with my dogs vaccinations mainly because i take them to shows and also because if i discontinued with vaccination and anything happened due to this , i would never be able to forgive myself. As you know from your own unfortunate and very sad experience parvo is a horrible disease. I just think that maybe we are kept in the dark a little when it comes to the ammount of fatalities there really are as a result of vaccination. If the same happened with human babies or children there would be ahuge out cry and investigation. People would stop having their children vaccinated.
Maybe this is why we are not given the full facts.

No problem im glad you posted it we all try to do our best for our dogs

Hello, we haven't been introduced before but I have just read your tragic tale. Please pass my heartfelt sympathy to your friend on the death of her dog. My dog, Purdie,(weimaraner) has only been with us a week but we would be devastated if anything happenened to her. Your poor friend.
Regards
Lindsey

How awful for you. I know many of us hope that when their time is due our oldies will go in their sleep but a puppy that young is a terrible loss. I personally feel that many deaths that may have been triggered by vaccine go unrecorded because many people can't bear the thought of putting their pet through a pm and as it wont bring them back.
Thinking of you.

Jesse

Dear LouieHello, we haven't been introduced before but I have just read your tragic tale. Please pass my heartfelt sympathy on the death of Vera. My dog, Purdie,(weimaraner) has only been with us a week but we would be devastated if anything happenened to her. I am so pleased to hear that ozzie is doing well however. Vaccinations can be quite daunting, as it is with MMR versus seperate jabs etc for children, in my opinion. We really are at the "mercy" of our Vet's expertise but it does sound rather odd that your vet wouldn't do a post mortem. I think that said more than if one had been done.
Regards
Lindsey

I have never had any problems with dog jabs, but Treacle , my cat who is now 8, was very very poorly after her 1st vaccination. I was convinced the vet would reject the connection, but they informed the relevant authorities ( apparently there's a protocol for it) and never charged me for all the expensive treatment we had to get her better. I've never had a cat vaccinated since, although I do have my dog done, as I'm less experienced with dogs and tend to concede with the majority.
As far as original poster is concerned I'm really sorry about your puppy and you must console yourself with the fact that you did everyuthing for the best for her
Love
Jane

I was told by someone that you can vaccinate a dog for parvo until it's a yr old, but i have a pitbull and they're supseptible (sp) to the disease so im wondering if anyone knows about this?

Adverse reactions are (or should be) reported to the Veterinary Medicines Directorate under the Suspected Adverse Reaction Surveillance Scheme (SARSS).

Go to "adverse reactions" on the lefthand side of this page...

http://www.vmd.gov.uk/

For anyone interested this is the form that is used (first page is for human reactions to a vet. medicine, second page is animal reactions).

http://www.vmd.gov.uk/sarss/forms/mal252.pdf

Apart from adverse reactions, cats are very susceptible to injection site sarcoma, a cancerous lump where they've been needled.

Kath.

You can also discuss with your vet the type of protocols you would like to follow; it is possible to vaccinate singly however this is very expensive and vets buy in boxes of vaccines.  But you can request a different frequency for initial jabs for those breeds which appear to have problems with vaccines such as my breed the Weimaraner.

Hi Pushyposh, Vera did have a post mortem. What happened was that we brought Vera,s body to the vets Sunday morning. The vet told us that they wouldnt perform the post mortem but would be sending her body to Axiom Veterinary Laboratories, i believe they are based in Cornwall, on Monday morning. At 11.00 Monday morning i received a telephone call from our vets asking us to reconsider having the post mortem done as in the vets opinion there was a 98% chance that the vaccine hadn,t caused Vera,s death. I said that we needed to know what caused Vera,s death since it was important to us to rule out any other possible causes.  The vet then said, " you do realise that your bill will be over a hundred pounds and that will be just for the post mortem". I said that i didn,t care about the cost we needed to know for our own peace of mind. It was nearly 2 weeks after that when we finally received the post mortem results. To date nearly four months later we haven,t received a bill. We have visited the vets with our other dogs since then and i did ask for the bill. I was told that there wasn,t one.