Here are some points made by our local GSD Rescue rep - Comments anyone - we have met the rep and she has met Max with her dog so has a good idea of what he's like.

Q:You're going to hate me but we did put Max on a residential training course for obediance.

A:I'm not going to hate you ~ I just think you probably wasted your money.
Training a dog is half the pleasure of owning a dog although, judging by the sucess I am having with our surrent pup (now 14 months old) I may be asking for the address of your residential classes before long!

Q: I get the feeling that she understands dogs but not GSDs. A police GS handler once told us that we should shout at Max when repremanding him "until his ears go back" but so far have only been able to do this a few times.

A: Some pet dog trainers think that squirting dogs with water sprays is the answer to all your problems. If I did that with my young male dog he would laugh at me. I am not advocating that you beat the **** out of him, but you certainly need him to know that when he's not behaving you are not going to be pleased. Repremanding him until his ears go back is one way but in order to get him to do that he needs to know you are not kidding.
You can't afford to take your eye off the ball with dogs like Max and it would probably have helped gain his respect if you had done the obedience side of things yourself even though it'd probably have taken a bit longer to get there.


Q:Also he's begun challenging my dad, just my dad, is fine with my mum and me but is also possessive with toys/bed/bones.

A:No disrespect intended, but I can imagine he doesn't need to challenge your mum. I can imagine she doesn't challenge him and so there's no need for him to answer back.
If he is starting to become 'naughty' with your dad, then you need to nip this problem in the bud before it escallates to something else.

HI Banger

Well it's difficult to pass comment really - but I felt like weeping when I read about how we are supposed to shout at a dog to make their ears go back. For God's sake!!! Sorry Banger, that's not aimed at you, but all that achieves is that the dog is showing submission and that the person shouting is a good yeller :( I know a brilliant police dog handler but then there are bad ones too - remember the Essex case? Don't believe it just because he is police.

My dog and all my dogs have only been shouted at in an emergency. They work with their ears pricked and excited and happy shining eyes. Very occasionally will their ears go back but that's due to how they are feeling, not me shouting at them!

i am going to recommend that you read "Dogwise" which is the brilliant account of a GSd rescue dog who was trained to police standard very quickly, and passed the test I think with 96 or 98%, for police dog, and was never shouted at. It is actually an experiment by John Fisher to see just how high a standard dogs could be trained to with non-shouting methods :) :D

I would very occasionally shout if i was reading the riot act, but if you have to shout lots when training then you are on a sticky wicket IMHO.

RE the challenging thingy, I think he is challenging your dad because your dad has challenged him. Could that be right? Going back to the wrestling, nose slapping, all the other stuff, is it any wonder he growls at your dad who he may see as a big threat? I think it was Mattjie who said he needs firmness and kindness, and I agree. /But I wouldn't call that a need to challenge each other. It's not a war zone - yet! :D

HOwever, if you feel she doesn;t understand your breed then it may b ea waste of time. But then she is in GSD rescue.....

Here's a number: 01686 688920. Gail Gwesyn-Price, a GSD fanatic and does loads of training and other stuff. I doubt if she will be able to help over the phone but she is very kind and may know of something...it mayhelp just to talk to her. I spoke to her last year and she gave up lots of time, a nice lady :)

Ah well, I wish you luck.

LIndsay

Well its very difficult to make your mind up when Max is running rings round you every day despite advice from a lot of sources.

On the challenging, my dad is the softest member of the household and I can't recollect any challenging on his behalf. In fact its very difficult to get my dad to toughen up. Having changed my demenour over the last week or so and not letting him get away with anything I am really beginning to wonder about this. He doesn't seem to challenge me as much now - all I can say is the proof is in the pudding - he's starting to back off where all other methods have failed.

While a year ago I would have agreed with you whole heartedley Lindsay I am now beginning to think that the really firm method is begginning to pay dividends and the person who wrote the email is not only a GSD Rescue rep but breeder too.

I'll see if I can get the Dogwise book from the library think I may have seen it there.

I think the lady was right banger, the problem with your dad needs to be nipped in the bud.
I am going to recomend that you build a kennel, put it in the garden and put dad out at night.
If he starts complaining and shouting, ignore him.

Gawd Denis lol

banger--tell me that avaunt isnt dennis off sierras board--now that you've drawn my attention to it a posting off each board one by avaunt and one by dennis are practically identical--suprise me :D

I think he is one in the same dizzy :rolleyes:

must keep his happy head for this board then!!!!!:D

for Dizzy :D :D :D

I don't know if this is relevant, and so far i have keep sctum about the max/banger issue, but do we know how old banger is? I know that this doesn't necessarily mean anything (i was a mere baby when i got my first dog!), but sometimes the younger someone is the harder it is to realise that they are not being consistent - please don't shoot me, i'm young myself :). I have a friend who adored his dog, did everything he should do, except for realising that his very nature of being with the dog made it aggressive: play fighting, teasing, getting it excited as he thought it fun to have a bouncy dog - this back fired as the dog thought it acceptable behaviour and now CANNOT be let off the lead, ever.
I also knew this boy (about 16ish) who had a rot x GSD and was at a military (RAF) school in london. Dog was lovely, kept outside, given fairly large amount of exercise though not very much obedience training. When she reached about 8 months he started training her with the RAF dog division in Sch. A lovely dog rapidly turned into a terror, she became dominant and aggressive and tried to start on cleo on a number of occassions, i was lucky in that cleo came to me rather than turned on the dog. The boy did nothing, though i doubt he was able, he thought the dog was just playing, though a bit rough. It is this kind of attitude that begets aggressive - or even just bad mannered dogs - and i fear that is what max was bought up with though obviously i don't know. Dizzy, i have to agree with your post lower down in this thread about things having gone too far now, but lets hope we're wrong, eh :(

<< Having changed my demenour over the last week or so and not letting him get away with anything I am really beginning to wonder about this. He doesn't seem to challenge me as much now >>

That's great Tim, PROGRESS.

Fiona

Tim, I was given permission to cross post this from one of my e-lists. Hope there might be something in it you'll find usefull. :)

>>> Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC

Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a
dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:

a.. Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
b.. Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
c.. When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to
follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
d.. Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically,
that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license
than males are.
e.. The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of
age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy
hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate
appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social
hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
f.. There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished
through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
g.. A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by
bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a
dictator.
h.. The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are
confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their
point. To do so would lower their status because...
i.. Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their
positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals.
j.. Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose.
They know their position, and they accept it.
k.. "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control
of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail
to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued
resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers
important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he
simply couldn't care less.
So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?

a.. Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only
middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
b.. To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff
like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean
making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great
-- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog
want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or
whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want,
*you* are alpha by definition.
c.. Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the
"revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women,
elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog.
Very few people are capable of physical domination.
d.. Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have
two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention,
the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated.
Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I
say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy.
Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is
a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs...
food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide
what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own.

In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT)
newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College,
co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books
including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior,
and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training
community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)...

"I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning
dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be
thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time
trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."

Very well put.

But my problem is how do I control Max if not by physical methods. Before we got Max I would have totally agreed with this article, our previous dog Tara - you just had to say No to her in a normal tone of voice and she would stop what she was doing. But we are talking cross-species communication. I cannot sit Max down and explain to him what his limits are. How do I effectively communicate this with Max? I agree with the sentiment of the arguement BUT the dogs in the study may not have been as pushy as Max.

For example last night Max decided he wanted to have a little fun with my mum by mouthing on her feet which she cannot stand. No amount of me telling Max to stop or NO or anything like that would prevent him from doing what he was doing. So it escalated to the next stage of chasing him away from my mums feet, only for him to return to do it again. This wasn't defensive behaviour on Max's part but he was still tireless in his efforts. The only way to stop Max was to physically restrain him away from my mum for 30 minutes. THIS WAS THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THE BEHAVIOUR!

Quinn, how would you deal with this situation and stop Max from being the pest he was being ? Max is never allowed to eat unless he downs and we do get Max to sit before he goes through a door - yet despite these efforts still does the above feet grabbing. Whenever I throw a ball for Max he does a down or he doesn't get the ball thrown. When there is something that Max wants we have a reasonable amount of control over him - but take the insentive away and he ignores you !

Tim, I don't have enough experience with dog training to give you any personal advice. I tend to pass on things that I have heard or read that sound sensible. Sorry.

With regard to the Oprah post, dogs are very intuitive. I guess the point I was trying to make is that maybe Max can sense that "Here we go again" feeling from you or whoever when he starts to get pushy. There maybe an element of fear in some of the household members now that he has "drawn first blood" and he may be feeding off that. It just sounds like everyone in the house has issues with Max and he's somehow getting a payoff for his behavior. I don't know if any of this rings true for you or not.

You've certainly looked at a lot of different ways to work on Max's behavior. I gotta give you credit for that! I had a dog once that needed more structured and consistant training than I could give her. Everything turned into a battle with her, from opening the front door (she'd bolt, run around the village, wouldn't recall), walking her on a lead (RARELY stopped pulling), mouthing (holes in clothes, broken skin, lots of bruising), tackling the kids (my 3 young children became frightened of the dog), barking when she was let out in the garden(wouldn't recall so couldn't correct her), and regularly chasing her around the garden for 15 min because she wouldn't come in when called. She often would sit and give me that look that says "You haven't a clue, have you?" In the end we returned her to her breeder (Brainless. No really, that's her name!) who has turned her into a lovely dog and a show champion to boot! I personally believe that Jozi (the dog) is far happier with B than she could ever have been in our home. Our family wasn't able to give her what she needed. Love wasn't enough! We missed her terribly and I still feel guilty, but you can't imagine the lightness I felt in our house after we returned her. I hadn't realized just how much stress we had all been under. It was the best decision for all of us really. She grew to interact with us one way and it would have taken more training then I could have mustered to change that.

I wish I could help you more, Tim.

Sometimes it is almost impossible to change the dynamics in a household to change the behaviour habits that have developed, and the dog is better with a completely new start with someone else. there is no history so everything starts from scratch. This is why residential training where a dog is sent away is these days no longer a realistic option. the dog is fine at the trainers but soon reverts (as Banger found) on return home.

A residential course away from home for both of them could work?

Thank you Quinn for the comments, with some dogs experience is a godsend, lol! But with all the dog studying you have done (my first dog taught me a lot, and I made loads of mistakes, she was a nightmare escapist hot wired BSD Groenendael, so all dogs since seem a piece of cake) I am sure you will start as you mean to go on with your next dog, sometimes it isn't just the dog but other factors that contribute to lack of success.

A man who lives near me got an Elkhound pup from another breeder, and I have taken them under my wing (he now shows and has done very well). They had to give up their first dog a Samoyed in similar situation to you, after he had knocked his pregnant wife over.

Now Mitzie is a typical adolescent Elkhound, but at this time in their lives they can cope with her fine! He admits having plenty of back up when things were tough helped! He met Jozi, (he takes us to shows)and can see that where his bitch is now is where she was six months ago, and that they do progress and grow up.

He fostered a little bitch going back to her breeder for two weeks, and realised just how good his girl was by comparison to this younger untrained one, he is pleased that he is getting there LOL :D

Hi me again,
First off, Quinn, what a wonderful and logical posting. It stated so much of what I've gleaned through the years from observation and experience into a single comprehensive account. Thank you for doing that. (I did love the point of differences and how the gender heirarchies were set --- rather similar to the human world, I think lol)

Banger, your troubles with Max. (Sigh) I'm starting to realize something that I didn't before. The "residential program" is where you sent your dog to be trained by someone else? You actually didn't go through the course by working & training your dog at the same time? Am I correct in this assumption?

Have you ever signed up for a basic obedience course that you attended with Max?
This is so important in a relationship. Just because Max was trained by someone else, does not mean that you and he are on the same wavelength. Training & working together builds a bond and trust. Sometimes owners & dogs have to go through a second time, just because things didn't work out quite right. No shame in that.

You might want to look around and evaluate some type of training schools in your area. Even if you and Max have gone through some training together, obviously it didn't work for you. But you two need to build up your confidence in one another. He doesn't trust you and you can't really trust him. When trust happens, those around Max (your mom & dad) will become incidental in his doggy brain.

Important -- Find out how the discipline is meted out. Someone who advocates over-treating or hanging the dog on a choke/training collar into submission is not who you want. Max has enough physical problems & phobias without adding to them.

Oh, and with your mum's feet, put Max on a lead & make him do a down/stay next to you. Tell him quietly "Down" and then "Stay" and just put your foot on the lead. Then go back to what you were doing. If you've actually worked on the "dominance/down" that I told you about a while ago, he should eventually comply with your firmness.

I hope this helps you out a bit.
toodles

The sooner you go and see if that Schutzhund trainer will take you the better Banger, all this only leads to endless confusion and as the time goes on the more Max (a) consolidates his unwanted 'learned' habits (b) 'learns' new unwanted habits.

Avaunt,

I've been looking around at definitions and applications concerning Schutzhund training. It appears that the dog has to have basic obedience skills and confidence before entering the program. The three phases begins with Tracking, moves on to Obedience, and then to Protection. This is from the Schutzhund.com association's website. It takes a lot of discipline and dedication to do this program, especially since the focus is upon competitive levels.

To be honest, I don't like any method that teaches an animal or person to "switch" on/off agression, no matter how highly trained it might be. I realize this is at the highest phase, but I still don't have to like the idea. Adrenaline should be respected, not thought of as a switch.

Also, I do not care much that the Schutzhund associations have quietly hidden much of their origins and practices during the 20th century to become accepted today without any serious qualms. The Nazis trained their dogs by this method and used them cruelly on human beings. It is an ethical dilemma for me to condone ScH because of its misusage in addition to how its history has been rewritten. (I realize this will open a whole can o'worms, but this is how I feel about this subject)

Would this type of training really fit Max's personality and problems? I don't know. Perhaps they may. But it sounds as if ScH is not for an untrained dog to start from the ground up. Either way, he still needs some type of Basic Obedience program that can get him and Banger on the same communication level.

toodles

Could not agree more Toodles. What’s needed here is a bit more constant training instead of continually trying to find new and different ways of training. All that does is confusing the dog and in the end it ignores all attempts at training because all it is as far as the dog is concerned is noises and inconveniences. There must have been 50 different ideas floated here in a couple of weeks! Definitely not the best way to train any dog!

John

Hi Toodles,

The origin of Sch was at the turn of the last century, it was a German police GSD test.

It was then adopted and started as an international dog sport and has remained almost unchanged ever since except all breeds or non-specific breeds can compete, though only a few predominate. It is an international dog sport and it is the only internationally recognised degree in dog training/handling/behaviour control.

In bangers case he is going to a Sch ‘trainer’ who trains his own dogs but might (or might not) take on banger for an obedience course relevant to bangers dog specificaly, there is no suggestion if banger going into Sch, unless he got to advanced obedience and then joined BSA.

I have no idea of Maxes origins but if it is from British GSD stock the chances of the dog being capable of completing a Sch triathlon are almost non-existent. All GSD’s doing SCH here are from European stock imported in mid 80’s and still being imported today, Brit dogs are not capable.

Many police forces especially the Met are getting their GSD’s from Sch handlers because of the quality of the stock.

However if banger is taken on and responds to training there is no reason he can’t do the BH, which is the obedience qualification.

Tracking specifically, (regardless of Sch) is best started very early, though it can start at any time, if I have dog capable its basics are underway by about 10-14 weeks.

There is nothing hidden in 20th cent that I am aware of, Sch stopped during WW1 and 2 because they wouldn’t stop the war so all nations could hold the Olympics or dog sports.

No, neither the Nazis or modern police exclusivly use the outer sleeve protection method or a method whereby the dog targets the arm specifically and solely, unless the dog is trained to do that for special duties, the arm bite is however the usual primary target in civilian use for safety reasons.

In the Sch protection phase the dog targets an outer sleeve but there’s more to it than that, it isn’t just the fact that the dog grabs the sleeve that’s judged,there’s much more.

Why not open a can worms, after all we are talking about dogs and I don’t see any can of worms, I don’t see anything you said as not having a legitimate place in dog forums.

Banger has in fact had an immensely usefull learning experience, namely that academic or written theory has no place in learning how to handle dogs, its all done in the multiple stimuli envioronment of everyday life.

banger himself has said at times he wondered if max is sound in the head---is that really the sort of dog that should be trained to do sch!!!!are you on commision for some sch club , it seems to be the only thing you can talk about!! in a mentaly sound dog with a good and trusting relationship with its handler then yes---if for any reason they felt they needed to do sch ,.then im sure that team would stand more chance of success. bangers dog has no respect for anyone, is tempremental, unruly and has not bonded at all with his owner, so i cant see the benefit of teaching this dog sch!!!!!

Avaunt,
The reason I mentioned the "can o'worms" is because I really don't have the energy or desire to debate my point of view on the subject at the moment. I realize that ScH began at the turn of the 19/20 century and the point that it was to evaluate GSDs. That's an over-simplified explanation, l know.

I just find it rather distasteful that the training resulted in brutal applications towards helpless civilians and prisoners. The style of wrap training had nothing to do with it, in my opinion.... especially since I've been there/done that earlier in my life.

I've read in other postings about British GSD's not being able/or not chosen at the higher levels of ScH....Odd thing, but not my area of expertise.

Banger ultimately will be the decider on what he is to do about Max. All we can do is post helpful suggestions. I do get the feeling that somehow a miracle is supposed to happen to Max, one day, instead of long steady hard work.

Even now, I have to take my easy going dogs out and run them through their basic doggy education that they learned over 6 years ago to reaquaint them with what they know. Just like beginning Ballet, the excellence in dog training lies in the application of the basic principles. :D

toodles

I don't think Max would pass the gunshot test for Sch !

Long hard work is exactly the point, if the guy does take banger on banger is going to find that he is not going to get a simple quick fix answere, he is going to have to do his basic obedience and work at it every day at it, combined with his education on it.

There will be no more, 'ignore him's' or 'frown at him's' or similar simple quick fix ideas, banger will have to work to acheive any ends and at the end of the day he will only get out of the dog what he puts into it, hail, rain or shine days.

Whoops, just saw you Dizzy, where did me or banger say banger was being trained in Sch?

the mail above---the sooner you go and see if the sch trainer will take you the better????????did i misunderstand-i hope so,. :D

Dizzy, what do you understand by Sch trainer?

not loads-therefore ive not gone into it on the board-however i do know the dogs and handlers have to be disciplined, and steady in mind--dont think max comes under either of these at the minute, on bangers own admission, im not getting drawn into the sch debate, only i feel max will only ever be as good as his owner can make him be!!!!:D

There is and has been no Sch debate on this topic.

The person banger might take Max to for obedience training and education for banger & max's individual needs is himself a Schutzhund trainer, that means he himself is fully qualified and experienced to give banger and Max obedience training/education at a level of internationaly recognised competence in the field.

This is what he is not, he is not someone who does a correspondence course, or a 2 weeks course at a private PLC or personal course for 2 weeks then registers at the local council as running a small buisness from home as a 'dog this' 'dog that' or 'dog whatever' 'therapist etc springs to mind amongst others, and then goes on to charge a fee and end up with the results seen in max's case and others.

Not many people taking part in either Sch or any working trials take on people for obedience but there is a possibilty this guy might take banger and max, if he thinks he can teach banger all that is required in obedience, therby forming the rank order, which is lacking now.

Most people who are succesfull trainers simply train local people in order to get a sense of responsibilty back to dog owners instead of them just going to someone who gives themselves a title which has absolutly no meaning apart from a commercial ploy and ends up with the results seen in Max.

If you go back through all of bangers missles you find out he has been to about 6 of these so far, if he goes to Sch trainer it will be the first time he has had the chance to go to someone with proven competance levels to take banger through obdedience.

It might end up that banger himself is really not cut out to do an obedience course who knows.

Are you clearer now?

there is no need whatsoever for your sarcasim!!!is it clearer now!!!!!!!having owned dogs for about 20 years now--rotties most of them also akitas and now sharpei, i do understand dogs, i have NEVER EVER had one of my dogs cause a problem for themseleves -other people-family members etc-or others dogs, they are well trained and well socialised--i also help out whenever theres a problem with anything ive bred--usually a case a bit like bangers where the person has made mistake after mistake and the dog gets the upperhand, i go to the house and see the dog in its own surroundings, i watch it interact and see which way forward will work--i then show them -with the dog how to handle the situation, i stay there until its sorted out.
ive asked banger several times about the breeder of max-perhaps he would know more about his lines etc, how to deal with the problems--i get by very nicely thankyou- ive no problems with my lot-but i was willing to give my bit of advise as i saw it--i still say the dog will only ever be as good as banger!!!all the trainers in the world -yours or anyone elses wont change the dog unless they change the whole family too !! its his life that needs adjusting, his family and his routine, CLEAR ENOUGH!!!

Haveing read all bangers correspondences I have not seen anywhere that banger has gone wrong, he has sought advice and carried out what he has been told.

Now it's time he went to a competant trainer, there has so far been no failing on bangers part that I have seen. Its the failings of others theory which has failed banger.

He has fell for some sales talk but now he has the experience to deal with it in futor.

I have kept out of the debates on Max but I now feel I have to say something. I agree with John and Dizzy's views. I have read all the posts on Max and although I am a complete novice only having had a dog for 5 months, Banger has said (if I remember rightly but I am sure to be put straight if I havent as some of the threads have been long!) that he has taken Max for training before but he hasnt improved. He has then replied to every offer of help he has had on this board (and people have been very good and given him lots of advice) that he will get in touch/look into it/try it etc etc etc or has said I have tried that and that and that but he doesnt seemed to have DONE anything. I think he should take the dog to an obedience class (or have a trainer come to his home) and then to do what they tell him to do and carrying on doing it and doing it and doing it until Max knows he is not the boss. Even as a beginner myself it does seem clear that Max is not under control in his home at all. I hope I havent offended anyone but really Banger IMO cannot keep on asking for advice, thanking everyone and then not taking the advice and acting on it. Regards Gina

I think not Gina, I mean banger has not been on an obedience course.

Max was sent away to GSD academy without banger, max was fine, obedient etc but banger has not been obedinece trained with max.

He is now to see a pro trainer to see if the guy will give him an obedience course and thats what these last 6 or so posting have been about.

Thanks for your reply Avaunt. The memory goes after a while of reading all the posts on Champdogs LOL. I hope he does actually see the trainer soon. He looks a lovely dog from his pics. Regards Gina.

Yes there is quite saga regards Max, if banger doesnt do the obedience he is going to get freeze dried and put on display somewhere.

<<<<He is now to see a pro trainer to see if the guy will give him an obedience course and thats what these last 6 or so posting have been about.>>>>

To be honest I can't help but wonder if this advice was offered at any other time by one of the many behaviourists Banger has seen/spoken too?? I also think that maybe the 'GSD academy' would have given the same advice after evaluating Max....That his owner should also keep up with the training (they know it can't be done in half a day when picking up your dog from them) and find a good class/school or trainer to continue Banger's training as well as Max's! (I know myself and others have suggested it in posts). So Banger, If the trainer won't give you a course, there are many good classes out there you could still attend! Training doesn't end with the end of a course though. The number of people who attend puppy classes/ courses, whatever, and then think they never have to go again because of the 'my dog's trained now thought' is amazing. Dog training is never ending IMO and there are things to be learnt/taught throughout your dogs life and your time with them!

with respect to banger, ---do you auvant think if you owned max he would be going on the way he is, id put money on it that it wouldnt of ever taken off had he been here- so if it wouldnt of happened with you--and it wouldnt of happened with me--then why has it happened-its because banger isn't geared to a dog like maz--i know its not intentional , we know how much he cares ,but the dog is not at one with him -or should i say banger is not at one with the dog--he remains a liability, so why would you say it happened in the first place then

Hahaha....no it would't have happened, but, I have the impression this is either Max's first dog or at least his first lively dog.

so going back to your mail where you say---you have not seen that banger has done anything wrong-----well what went wrong then, -the point im trying to make is that unintentionaly banger has caused the problems, max has taken a lend of him, -hes failed to build up a respect with him as the leader, -members of the family have been bitten-neighbours are threatened, cars and joggers chased- so!!!!!!if it wouldnt happen with either of us, ---banger did nothing wrong-then why is the dog the way it is, --sorry but i think that the dog would be better off in the army or somewhere that its energy's and cleverness can be put to good use- its not a laid back happy family dog- which it seems was what banger wanted, a family member who would actually LIKE!!! the rest of its family,

It went wrong when the dog was about 14 weeks old, as close as banger can put it, he took it to a council trainer for heavens knows what kind of lessons at that age.
I don't know for sure if it was only 14 weeks but banger seems to think so, the dog had 2 weeeks left of the critical stage and under no circumstances should it be towered over or leaned over at that age.
The council trainer stood sideways but above Max and told banger that would make the dog feel comfortable, she went forwards, all of which in the case of a first meeting at that age was nonsense unless she first established what socialization training had been done.I still cannot think why she met banger with a dog that age.
She should have kneeled at a distance and observed.
Max barked at her as a fear reaction and she jumped back, as she jumped back Max learned if he wanted to keep people away if he was uneasy with them just bark and go forwards but the incident hit Maxs low nerve threshold and developed it.
Then banger went to get quick fix things all from behaviourists,mainly because banger does not seem to know all dogs need an obedience course to some degree or other depending on the dog.
The exception was the gsd academy and although they did ok with max they just gave banger a few instructions and sent him packing.
The main cause of the problem is that the behaviourists he's seen have all given him the impression that if he does one single, possibly 2 things that will solve the problem, charged a fee and sent him on his way.
The problem has allways been banger needs complete training.
If the threat Max felt from the council woman was at 14 weeks max will allways occasionaly revert to a fear reaction on odd occasions but not so much that it disrupts each and every hour of each and every day, that is if banger responds to an obedience course, which he might not.

All of my dogs go to Dog club at 8 weeks old as part of their socialisation. They sit on my lap and watch the world go by. By 14 weeks old it's "Old Hat" to them. If the instructor was any good and I've no reason to believe he or she was not then it was most likely the best thing he could have done!

John

on a previous thread banger said he took it to that trainer as he had problems -and he growled at the trainer too-you say that although the trainer stood to one side so as not to upset max--she or he was still above him--get real, what did you want them to do , get down on their hands and knees, max wont be bumping into many diddy people when out, most folk are going to be bigger---[taller] than him- its not fair to blame the trainer-the problem was already there- i do feel sorry for banger with this dog as he has no idea of how to deal with it---i also feel sorry for max---as we've agreed under different circumstances it would never of got as bad as it is, -i believe in the saying-horses for courses, and dont think that max is going to get sorted where he is, sorry i hope im wrong but it has to be a whole new way for him, it needs to be structured, already hes no respect for the family-are they going to be marched off and trained too???

Yes I vaguely remember he growled at the woman, sounds like a fear reaction under the fight or fligh drive.
Anyhow dogs have a critical period from about 2-16 weeks.

Depending on breed, a dog should not be leaned over unless its been socialized, which covers that, but most Brit GSD's have a low nerve threshold and unless it undergone a socialization prgramm they should not be leaned over, standard knowledge and standard proceedure starting at about 3-4 weeks with responsible informed breeders.

What, why or if anything was wrong before then has not been stated that I know of and I've read so much of this I have forgot lots of things.

right!!!! again, the woman didnt lean over him, she stood to one side---ive done and passed temperament tests with my rotties, so must of done something right , but for the life of me i cant see how any dog could see someone standing to one side of them as a threat-when something threatens a dog-eg another dog-its done front on-eye contact body posture the lot--not quietly standing sideways with the eyes averted, im not going to go on and on about this-i feel max is too much for banger and his family circumstances, his father he said is frail ,whos going to get max to respect him, -i could go on but im not-i deeply hope im wrong and it can be sorted out-time will tell . good luck with him banger, hope it works out for you. :)

He didnt just growl at a woman he went for Banger's dad for goodness sake. He is a large dog and I for one would not like him going for me. Banger must get him help before he actually hurts someone. All the help he is getting on this site will not change things with Max until Banger follows through with assistance from a competent trainer or whatever it people wish to call them. If that doesnt work then I am sorry but IMO (why we put IMO I dont know because of course it is my opinion but out of politeness and, as I try to be polite,) IMO if he cant sort his dog out then it cannot be a family pet. Gina.

I do the same with mine John, as soon after 8 weeks as I can manage. I sit around, introduce them to any spectators present, old, young, male and female (sometimes a bit of each!). They are fussed and played with and realise that there are dogs other than Rough Collies in the world outside. By the time that they join in with the very basic obedience class, they really look forward to seeing their Auntie Freda for half an hour on a Friday evening!
It seems to me that there are some out there who are making an "ology" (remember the BT advert?) out of what we've been doing for years!

I found the thread and this is what banger said...

{The first thing he did when he met the trainer was growl at her even though she stood sideways to him to not appear as a threat.
Whilst she was a very helpful lady she was the first to admit her expertise was not good enough to deal with Max as he seemed to be showing aggressive tendancies.}

The growling is just a fear reaction, for the dog to percieve the woman as a threat
he was clearly not comfortable with her total position in relation to him.

Having taken classes for the last nearly 40 years I would hesitate to comment on that without actually seeing the dog at that time. It could just as easily have been a threat. In any event, had the dog been mine or Dizzy's it would not have been allowed to get away with it. I, and i've no doubt Dizzy, would have summed up the position and have taken steps to overcome it. To me, one thing is certain, without seeing it I would not presume to say which way the problem started!

Yes but the overall problem seems to be that this is either bangers first dog or first
lively dog, another problem seems to be he has never mentioned at any time the breeder.
All responsible breeders selling a GSD to a first time owner should give as much support and education as needs be.
Maybe banger will tell us something about the breeders involvement.

May i take this oppertunity to say that if you are thinking about going into shutzhund training with max, ask yourself this question, is he of sound temperament, because from what i have read from previouse postings he is not!! if you are going to introduce this it may bring out maxs aggresion even more, i have seen it in the police dogs, you have to have a very balanced dog, because it may push him towards being more positive with his actions towards you and your family, and once you start this it will be very hard to stop it, you may be digging a hole for yourself, think very hard before you go down this road.

You need to read this thread properly, you seem to have missed a lot.