Right, as many of you may know i have a 2 year old border collie bitch and an 11 month old golden retriever bitch. Now, i have been advised to play more ball games with my BC out on walks, to redirect her chase and herding drive. (And may i say thanks again, Sally, you were both so helpful, it was a shame about the weather though!!) Any way, Meg (BC) is obsessive about balls and her behaviour is terrible when there is one around which is part of the reason i stopped taking a ball out with me. I tried taking a ball out with me today, and she was much better behaved in respect to giving the ball back, but everything else was a complete nightmare. She won't leave me alone, she jumps on me (Something she rarely does normally), refuses to sit, etc. Ellie the GR isn't interested in the ball, but when i throw the ball for meg ellie dashes after her mouthing her back and trying to mount her. When i got home Meg was absolutely soaked in ellie drool. I have been advised to teach them to take turns, i.e. when its megs turn ellie waits and vice versa, but neither take this well, and unless they have their leads on and i am holding on for dear life (particularly with meg) they won't wait. (Wait and stay is usually one of their best points!)
Ok, so i played for a while and then i decided it was time to move on, so i put the ball away and just carried on with the walk as i have been advised to do, (so that megan learns to stop "working" when i say) Ellie just went off sniffing as usual, but meg wouldn't leave me alone. Infact, she never kept her eyes off me, to the point of walking backwards and sideways the whole entire walk, occaisionally even jumping on me. I just ignored her and tried to avoid falling over her, but she just wouldn't give in, and i refuse to throw the ball when she is mugging me like that, so i never really got another chance to throw it. I know i am probably expecting too much as she is a very active BC, and i accept that, but surely there must be an off switch somewhere? I have seen other BC's behave better, so there must be some hope! So bassically how can i stop ellie mouthing meg when playing ball, how can i stop megan mugging me for the ball and is there any chance of getting them to take turns? 

Hi Lucy, It would be a good idea to teach Ellie to retrieve as well.  What breed is she? :D  Having two dogs together will often produce one that retrieves and one that doesn't bother or who has more fun chasing the other dog.  I am currently trying to get my young B.C. Lucy to focus on me and play ball with the other dogs about.  She has learnt to do it on her own but as soon as another dog is chasing a ball she would rather chase them.  The solution is to throw hers first while the others wait patiently and then they get theirs in the other direction.  She is gradually looking for her ball to be thrown more and more instead of looking for the other dogs to run but like anything it takes time and practice.  Would Ellie stay with you if you were tossing her treats while Meg was playing ball in the meantime?  Taking turns is something that will take a while to teach.  My dogs all respond to their names for taking or catching treats, having food bowl put down, going through doors and gates etc. so you could practice it in those situations too.  I think Russ said to you that she is a workaholic which is why she is like she is so you will have to be patient with her.  If you put the ball away and tell her 'off you go' just ignore her attempts to get you to throw the ball but let her have a game again after a little while.  Eventually she will realise that you will throw the ball again soon but just not yet.   Anyway, hope I have answered all your questions and I hope you are dry now ;)
Sally

Why don't you take them out separately? Or try teaching Meg to wait when you throw the toy out and fetch on your command? Or get Ellie a control spray collar for when she tries to mouth and mount... Or bring two seperate toys and throw them opposite ways! :D

I am having real trouble teaching meg to wait whilst i throw the ball. So far she will wait whilst i throw up and catch the ball myself, but unless i have her on a very tight lead (and even then she will try) she just cannot help herself. Any hints will be greatly appreciated. The seperate toys don't seem to work as ellie is not very toy motivated, i even holding out a treat to ellie whilst i throw the ball for meg, but she wouldn't even wait for that, (which amazes me she is usually so greedy!) The spray collar might work, but i don't want to frighten meg, as she is very nervous and as she  has had the collar on before she gets very stressed when one is used near her. Thanks for the suggestions though, i shall definately keep trying, or perhaps walking them seperately for the time being.

Thanks sally, yes, i am dry now, i have never seen hail like it!! Ellie is a golden retriever, but she has never seemed particularly bothered about retrieving, i suppose partly because when she was younger, any ball that got thrown was quickly fetched by meg, so she never really had a chance. She just doesn't seem interested though. They did seem better today, megan accepted that the ball had gone quicker, i think it is just going to take time. Its definately going to be easier to teach ellie to wait than it will be the other way round, meg just won't wait at all! I don't know how you manage with 9 collies, 1 is hard enough!!

You can switch a BC off, but you need to teach it.  Use a command like 'That will do' and stop what you are doing with her. Look away, no eye contact.  You must mean it though, don't give in and have another game.

I feel you are asking too much trying to teach things in the park, all exercises must first be taught on a one to one basis with no distractions.  For a reliable wait, teach Meg first, on her own, no distractions and do the same with Ellie.  It won't happen overnight, you have to make sure they are solid with these exercises on their own before putting them together.

Patience is a virtue with a Border Collie. :)
Sandra

Your certainly right there sandra, and unfortunately i am not a particularly patient person! ;-) I did  wonder if it was too much to ask. Meg know how to wait, but for some reason everything she know goes completely out the window, she won't sit, she won't lay down, wait or infact do anything i ask. (Well the only thing she will do is walk backwards - a favourite trick of hers!! ;-D) I really would like to maker her work for her ball sometimes, i feel that she needs it. I have seen Mary Ray work her dogs using a ball as a reward, and the dogs will actually do what they are told to get the ball, give it back immediately when asked and then carry on working. Meg just goes mad, she just can't control herself. Will it be possible to teach meg to wait for the command to get her ball, i.e. i throw the ball and she can't fetch it until i give the command, or am i dreaming of the impossible?

I dread to think of the amount of time Mary Ray puts in to train her dogs! ;) Far more than most of us I imagine! And at a guess 90% will be one-to-one.
:)

Of course you can teach her to wait for it, difficult to see where you are going wrong without seeing you train her.

Don't rush it.  If you are throwing the ball out in training, stop and place it a short distance.  Do it on the lead, no distractions, start in your kitchen if you like. On the lead you have control, but keep the lead loose.  Command her to fetch/hold, as soon as she picks it up call her back to you.  If you want her to give it to you, don't grab it but have a tasty treat nearby and offer your hand, don't take anything less then her placing it in your hand, then treat her.  She will soon pick up what you require from her.

If she won't wait, work on that first, keep calm and she will be calm.  Even when you start sending her out for the ball, sometimes go out yourself and pick it up and come back, praise and treat her, still in a calm manner.

Just do short sessions, 5 minutes several times a day.  Keep them calm, keep your voice calm with gentle praise. 

Let us know how you get on.

Teaching Meg to wait then go after the ball wont stop Ellie chasing and mounting will it? Shouldn't you be teaching Ellie to wait while Meg retrieves?

If Meg is as obsessed with the ball as she sounds, the ball would be a GREAT motivator for training! I thought border collies were the most obedient/cleverest easiest breed to train? Most of the obedience champs are collies and my girl is a collie x and her sits/downs in the field are excellent!

You shouldn't really have a problem teaching Meg to work for her ball, just make it clear in her head which is more important:

obeying your command = BALL

completely ignoring you = NO BALL

... pretty soon she should get the idea!

Well, i don't know about most border collies, but although mine is intelligent, she is a terror to train and can be far from obedient! My 11 month old retriever is catching her up fast, she wil even go down at a distance, which is something i have been trying for months to teach meg!! I had a couple of practise sessions over the weekend. Ellie is getting better at waiting whilst i throw the ball for meg, but as soon as i release her she jumps all over megan even if the ball isn't being thrown, i think it is just sheer excitement. I tried attaching a long line to ellies collar and stepped on it when she flew out and she was getting better. I think it is just going to take time.
I managed to get meg to wait several times today (in the garden) but i was getting fairly frustrated because she just would'nt do anything. If i asked her to sit, down, e.t.c. she just wouldn't. All she would do is circle me and walk backwards, which i know is probably excitement and the almost herding behaviour really. I would really like to use the ball as a motivator, because she can be so enthusiastic, but sometimes she just gets so focused on wanting to chase the ball that she blanks me out. When i practise formal retrieves with her dumbell, she won't heel and sit beside me (even using food), because she can't sit still. Typical BC i suppose, mad!!
Funny thing is, my friend's BC, who is probably more insane than meg isn't even interesting in balls, a bit like ellie. :-)

Some more great advise from me :) :

Don't ASK her to sit, ORDER her to sit! You are the boss/alpha/pack leader, she must obey your every command!

That was my problem when my girl was young, I used to always ask her politely to do something and in return she would think I was a push-over and very rudely ignore me and carry on what she was doing! I found she responded A LOT better when I told her firmly instead of asking nicely :)  Do you already do this? If she still wont calm down I think a VERY VERY angry staring contest might do the trick!

Does Meg do obedience?

>>I think a VERY VERY angry staring contest might do the trick!<<

Well I don't!!

If you try this you are likely to make matters worse, you are putting yourself into a very confrontational position and this is the last thing you want.

Keep it calm, yes, insist she does what you have asked for, I would go back to basics and do all training on the lead, then she will not have the opportunity to run circles around you.  

Take it a small step at a time, ie ask her to sit, quiet praise, move one foot away, if she stays, quiet praise, return to her each time to praise her and gradually build it up.  You will not be able to train her with your other dog around, this must be on a one to one basis. 

Only train if you are feeling calm, you must not get cross with her under any circumstances.

Keep at it, you will get there in the end.
Sandra

Staring at an agressive/dominant dog might cause confrontation. One of my dog's used to get over excited when squeeky toys were around and I found that staring hard at the dog for a few seconds calmed him down a lot - just reminding him that I was the leader and wasn't very happy with his actions, then told him to sit and praised. That worked for me but all dogs are different so it may not work for your dog, obviously if you think its gonna trigger aggression or make the dog submissive I wouldn't do it, but otherwise I found no problem with staring.

If you are training a dog it should not be a case of 'I am the leader, you will obey', but a building of a partnership and trust on both sides equally.

A dog will not 'obey' your commands when there are distractions if you have forced or bullied a response in training, he needs to trust you unquestionably and rely on your leadership through the realationship you have built.

Hi thanks for your replies.
We are doing much better today. Ellie is really good at sitting and witing for meg and she actually retrived a ball twice whilst i held megan (she wasn't very happy about that!) Slowly megan is getting the idea about waiting, but only in the garden when the object isn't a ball. I think we will get there but it will take a long time.
I think she refuses to sit because being a collie she is just too hyped up, and thinking about it, do collies naturally sit when herding? (which is effectively what she thinks she is doing) Generally i think they go down don't they? (Not entirely sure, i would welcome answers!)
She doesn't do formal obedience as such, we got to fun training classes where we do the usual obedience exercises, as well as tricks, a bit of HTM, a bit of agility e.t.c. She does everything very well there but the ball just sends her potty. I was thinking about what was said about collies being easy to train because they are intelligent. I can only speak for my own, but this is definately not the case, although i admit to probably thinking the same before i got her. If they are so easy to train, why are there so many in rescue and so many with problems? Anyway i digress!
I am stern with her, but it doesn't make much difference. I don't really think staring at her will work, she doesn't stay still long enough to keep eye contact anway!! :-)

I am pleased things are improving for you, why not put the ball away for a while while you are getting to grips with her training.  Bring it out again in a few months when you think things are more under control.

Yes, collies naturally go into a crouch position for herding, but that doesn't mean you can't teach her a sit.  I don't feel collies are more inteligent than other breeds, just quicker in action and to learn things. 

You are correct when you speak about peoples perception that they are easy to train and that is why so many end up in rescue.  Once you have built that 'partnership' then yes they are easy to train, but so many people cant reach that stage or give up too quickly, expecting an instantly trained dog after they have given them a few commands.

They are a very complexed breed, but once you have them on your side there is nothing to beat them.

Keep at it, you will get there with patience, having a younger dog around is going to make it more difficult for you, but give it time and one to one training with Meg you should start to see an improvement over the coming weeks.

Sandra

The reason collies end up in rescue is because they are so easy to train - because they pick up on the *wrong* things just as easily as the *right* and many owners don't recognise they are the cause.........

Yes thats very true, collies are excellent at training their owners and out smarting them!! Meg certainly teaching me a lot about training dogs!!
However, had another training session and we made even more progress, so thanks so much for all your advice!