Ok I would like to invite suggestions of the best way to deal with a persistant mouther/sleeve puller. "NO!" doesn't work, holding the collar for 15 minutes works until you let go and it starts all over again, exclusion from the pack doesn't work - it starts all over again when let back in and even a smack on the nose doesn't work! Ideas anyone ?

Well bangor at risk I offer my opinion , the foulest tasting liquid you can think of on your sleeve and wrist will make him not want a taste

Thanks mari - what would you suggest - I forgot to mention we have tried that using the proprietary stuff from the pet shop like Bitter Lime etc. :D

pepper--mustard-chilli sauce-----big stick------whip-----baseball bat--4x4!!!!!

Dizzy , you forgot the cattle prod! :D

Dizzy Really [lol] I get this all the time but he will not do it to my husband .I am sure
he just wants to bully me I have a great word that I say ,starts wIth o .... oFF
and it works every time.Zac will also when I walk him take part of the lead in his mouth and shake it like mad.

Hi Banger

How about removing all his teeth! This would solve many of the problems you seem to be up against <g>

Have something else handy - a tea towel tied into knots for instance - to shove into his mouth instead?

Christine

Is there anywhere on the net I can get a cattle prod from ? Don't fancy soaking me sleeves in chilli - besides he likes chilli - we discovered this when trying to discourage him from eating his own stools and is quite partial to kebab and chilli too :D

good grief--he eats his own stools too has he any good points-what are the things about him you like, ????????has he got 666 tattoed anywhere, im normally very very against electric collars BUT!!!!! if ever a dog deserved one, i think he's it

surgical spirits methalated spirits . might make him drunk as well saw the wino's down town on that . they stopped mouthing after it .they were numb :d
seriously put on an old jacket and creosote or jeyes fluid painted on it [oh and an oxygen mask for you ] do it outside and offer him the sleeve.If that dont work then NOTHING will

Thanks mari we'll try something along those lines might even try the Bitter Lime again cos he may have forgotten the taste.

Yes Dizzy he used to but now we stand near him when he goes to make sure he doesn't eat it - although if he's left alone will eat his poop. He likes fresh best :d

I've just spoken to a very well know behaviourists on your behalf Banger, she say the usual treatment for this is amputation and then ingnore him.
Regards....

Haha nice to see you again avaunt - did you see my post about the interesting article at realgsd.net on temperament, drives, thresholds and nerves by Joy Tix - very interesting reading if you haven't seen it with specific info about the GSD makeup :D

Have you tryed Tabasco Sauce, Stopped my gsd chewing stuff .

Regards
Jane.

Hmm Tobasco - haven't tried that mind you I don't think he has any taste buds LOL but will give it a go. I don't know wether any one saw the film K9 but Max is like the GSD in the film - you know the dog that crushed a snooker ball in his mouth :D

Hi Banger,
Have you ever considered that Max might be Damien reincarnated from "The Omen"? Perhaps he just needs a good exorcism? :D
toodles

I'm wondering whether this is a situation where the MasterPlus collar could help.

Hmmmmm - but iMHO you would need the approval of someone who understands its effect and will guide you on its use.Maybe talk to the behaviourist about it....? It may not be at all suitable for Max, and should only be used up to about 3 times or it can IMHO be abusive. If it is going to work it should work within 3 times i reckon.

Do you know of it, Banger? It is a collar that emits a sharp burst of air (sometimes with a scent) which is remote comtrolled. I think if you look at the Company of Animals site (sorry don't know addy) it shows it working.

I haveknown it to be very effective, but it ideally works as a surpride/distraction, not a punishment, so you then need to train/redirect immediately afterwards anyway. The one girl i knew - a vet, believe it or not - who used it for her lurcher who chased, saw no result because she didn't train an alternative behaviour :(.

Did you talk to the guy who stopped him mouthing before?

Why do you feel he has started to mouth again recently? It's just that you really need to work out why this has happened.....or once you stop it, it may well just start again later!!! :D

Are your mum and dad accidentally doing anything to encourage this? Have you tried redirecting him onto a favourite toy? Out of interest, apart from humans of course (he he he!!!) what is his favourite toy? :)

Hmmmm yes, an exorcism may be good....

I loved K9!!!

Lindsay

He he he Lindsay. Yes we have looked at the Master Plus collar with Citronella (did you know you can also get mustard scent). Our behaviourist did say the dogs can become immune to it depending on the dog and she does hire them to try rather than pay the 80 pounds or so straight away to see if it works - maybe the anti barking version of it may be useful for our neighbours sake

But on the sleeve pulling - the Tabasco works - although I've never seen a dog roll around on the floor and then run off like Max did :o Seems he doesn't like it :D

I haven't talked to his residential trainer as I am compiling a list of questions to ask him in one go and he's difficult to catch as he runs a Schutzhund Club.

My mum is sick of being dragged round the house by Max by the sleeve. He only does this to my mum for some reason and seems to pull her to where I am, seems he wants us to both be in his sight :D He used to do the same with my dad but doesn't bother and me and my mum have both been asking my dad how the heck he stopped Max pulling his sleeve - he has no idea :(

His favourite toy is a ex-squeaky ball. I say ex-squeaky becasue it took him two minutes to remove the squeaker and this is the second ball he has had as his first one is now in two halfs. When you throw the ball for him he goes nuts to go and get it, seemingly putting all his energy into it. But he is possessive with it. He will bring the ball drop it two feet away from you. I will not go for it as I know he will pick it up. So then he picks it up and drops it at your feet and you go to pick it up and he beats you too it running off with the ball - I feel very outwitted. We have tried using special treats as a swap but he's too wise for this LOL

Hi banger any of these punishment/response including staic electric you need to go to a pro trainer, if they will take you, the static e collar is for complete training, behaviouists don't understand them or how to use them at all.

Sorry to disagree Avaunt, but I really don't agree Max needs a static e collar - he is basically one confused dog - and IMHO :) yes he does need training, but to be absolutely blunt here (sorry BAnger, no offence) he needs total consistency, plus i believe other input which has been mentioned in previous posts.

Saying Max needs an e collar doesn't tackle the underlying problems and will just (IMO) lead to much worse ones at the end of the day :(.

JMO of course! :)

LIndsay

Totally agree Lindsay! Been following this thread and have been pleasantly surprised at a lot of the good common sense offered but might have known someone would come up with the E-collar quick fix idea. If e-collars were used frequently on children for all the bad behaviour they exhibit, there would be a national outcry and they would be banned!

Yes, Caroline, but if the ecollar worked and deleted ALL of the children's bad behavior, would there really be a uniform protest by everyone? ;-) LOL (just pulling leg, of course)
toodles

My perspective on E Collars:-

For them to be successful, it is all in the timing
If you have the ability to get the timing right...then you have the ability to train without an E Collar.

If you don't have the ability to get the timing right (which is why you would be looking at an E Collar) then it will just be another tool you use badly...to the detriment of the dog.

Is it just me or is anyone else fed up with the constant reference to E collars is the above trying to stir it up or are they on commision?????

Mattie says:

<<..are they on commission????? >>>

Yes, one does wonder!!!!! :rolleyes: :(

Lindsay

Mattie a very nice friend of ours said if they want to plug their dogs into the mains as such then dont expect us to approve.

Hi Lindsey,
Where in this posting did I say Max needed and E collar training course?

No, I am not on commision, I haven't in fact, taken training classes since late eighties, I did take some individuals in early nineties, but selective and referal only, my classes were no results no fee and were educational and not just running round a room.

Occasionaly an owner is still refered to me but it's rare I'd take anyone on. A vet recently asked me if I wanted to take on some of his clients ( no commercial interest he has genuine concern over recent years with dogs with problems not seen 10 years ago when people trained their dogs instead of trying quick fix unnsuccesfull quick fix attempt patches.)

I said no, so (1) no commercial interest.(2) If you read back you will find behaviourists offered banger an air puffer collar, so what you read was my response to that, I'd be interested to know whay you changed the context?

You will also note that when I have mentioned E collars I have only ever mentioned them in the context of the correct use of them, and within manufacurers instructions. I would agree that incorrect use of E collars will not get the results required with Max or any other dog, I also note that no one here has in fact given any opinion against the correct use of them. If they did they would, of course, put themselves in a position of being able to give a full description of how that is carried out.

I use a remote Electric trainer, as I have used tit bits as a child, once, unsuccesfully, as an adult, as well as prong and flat buckles.

I must admit that since my initial "No" to the vet I have contemplated taking or at least assessing the occasional client, but thats out of concern for the present situation whereby people try quick fix, unnsuccesfull methods, as a substitute for training their dog and establishing the rank order.

I don't have time or interest to take clients and certainly the money involved in a full training course over 8 maybe 10 weeks is far from tempting to say the least.

Hopefully I will manage to import a German dog soon and that will need all my spare time.

However having said all that I would like to hear how you think they are used, 90 odd% of others here who have written about them have spoken only of misuse.

I did in fact privatly refer banger to a pro trainer and it seems the guy might take him on, no fee, no commision.

HI Avaunt :)

<<Where in this posting did I say Max needed and E collar training course?>>>

Agreed you didn't say that in the recent posting, but why then mention the E collar at all? You do seem to bring them up whenever possible!!!

I have suggested privately that Banger goes to see John Rogerson, (and it was also mentioned on the board by others) ...... I sincerely hope the professional trainer youmention doesn't use e collars, (as not all of them do by any means!) but if he does then i am so so sorry for Max and Banger.

Max can be trained, we know that, because of the aparent success of his residential training, but it is at home where help is needed - JMO here but it's what i have always felt.

Lindsay

Lindsay I agree totally with you and I also think Avaunt has a bee in the bonnet about E collars and I wish he/she would be quiet we have enough idiots trying short cuts here ( in UK) without being encouraged,sensible things are very welcome barbarity can go and fly a kite !!!!!!!

I still believe someone is just on a windup here. Seems that e collars are the short cut to eveything in some peoples minds and others seem intent on continuing the wind up.

agree hundred per cent

:D

[deleted]

Hmmm, you could be right - if it's a wind up, i shall perhaps just not answer. Probably the best way!

Lindsay

Lindsey,
The reason I said it was because some behaviourist or other was going to give him some kind of remote collar which shoots a burst of air up the dogs nose,it has no safety record at all and you cannot just use these things willy nilly you have to be trained.
Whatever it is no one should just use these things unless they go to a pro trainer to be tought, they should most certainly not go to behaviourists as they do not know how to use them at all, on one site there is a case of a behviourists doing damage with one.
Banger has his his own experience of behaviourists and reports the results daily.
Avaunt>>>>>>>>LONDON.

Well, the MasterPlus was invented i beleive by Roger Mugford, who is of course a behaviourist! So he at least probably knows how ot use it :D

There is far less chance of doing damage with one of these than shall we say, other types of equipment.

WE all have different ideas about behaviourists and some are good, some are bad, but that is also true of professional trainers. There are some excellent ones :) and some rubbish ones :(!!

I believe someone on this board recently had some success with a b. so perhaps that balances things a bit?

Lindsay

Avaunt, I hope you never get your hands on a Master Plus collar and try to get it to shot a blast of air up a dogs nose - as this just proves how little you know about how the system is designed to work.......... It actually sits under the dogs chin and blasts the air under the dogs chin - it acts as a deterrant/distraction and does the dog no physical harm at all - unlike an e collar.

Absolutely, Mattie :)

Lindsay

Digger is right, I know only what I have read of the master plus collar, I did say that they shot air up a dogs nose, this was an inaccurate statement by me based on what I know of the Citronella spray, banger never actually described how it worked and I incorrectly assumed because it was made by Roger Mugford I assumed it worked the same or similar.

It does in fact work exactly the same as some kind of static collar. The dog receives a negative reinforcement from the collar at the point of unwanted behaviour and theoretically the dog learns that that behaviour is unpleasant and so learns positive behaviour for reward.

However what I want to know is this a training device or is it the same as some of the cheaper static collars, which are not training collars and which I have not and do not put forwards as favourable.

Safety in remote static collars has an exemplary record. There is one example I have heard of some years ago, here, where a receiver on a Lab for containment fence system got damaged and injured the dog. The reason it happened (and there was an enquiry) was that the owner had not used it to manufacturers instructions and admitted that fact. However we are not talking about containment fences.

There have been a number of reports of behaviourists misusing the collars and causing problems, there was an article in Feb edition of dogs today where that happened and on the champdog site one first hand witness stated she took a friend to one who had professed ‘electric shock therapy’ for a dog which chased cars her misuse of the collar, against manufacturers instructions, caused the dog problems.

I must admit I do have some sympathy with the behaviourist, if she advertised or said she performed 'electric collar therapy' (there is no such thing) or any other 'therapy' on dogs and someone is simple enough to believe such a thing exists
then why not treat the someone as an idiot, which is what the behaviourist did, but that misuse does not reflect badly on the remote e training collar at all.

Having said that, there are no incidents whatsoever of damage being done by a remote static collar which is being used correctly and within manufacturer instructions. Any claims otherwise should be clear as to what happened, where and with which collar. In the same way I have given 2 reference points.

So, what I want to know about the air emission collar is, is it a training collar? and if so how many levels of stimulus?

As regards it being safer it is the same both collars are remote, according to digger, the air blows beneath the dogs chin so there is no safety issue in either the air emission or static electric. The static however has a proven record of success with all breeds, I will not comment on the air emission until someone can tell me the how many stimulation levels and more about them.

As safety is a legitimate and constructive concern for all I have for the second time pasted below the Swedish reports on flat buckle collars, the German autopsy reports on prong and chokers and tri tronics reports on static electric training collars. below are the Swedish reports on flat buckle collars. These reports are standard info issues at most pro training classes.

1.Neck and Skeletal Injuries In Dogs
Here are some alarming facts from a 1992 survey carried out in Sweden.
Soft Tissue, Esophagus, Trachea, and Skeletal Problems”
- 63% of the dogs examined had neck and spinal injuries.
- 78% of the dogs with aggression or over-activity problems had neck and spinal injuries.
- Of the dogs with neck injuries, 91% had experienced hard jerks on a leash or strained on their leashes.
The dog forging ahead or a tethered pet hitting the end of the line may still inflict spinal injury.
Here are some excerpts from the above-mentioned survey, a 1992 study by Dr. Anders Hallgren in Sweden.
“During 1992 several Chiropractors, my students and I conducted a study of 400 dogs from different dog clubs in Sweden. Dog owners were offered a free examination of their dog by a chiropractor in return for their voluntary participation.
Those who volunteered to participate in the study had mostly ordinary dogs, in that owners presented them to us without any suspicion of spinal anomalies…Canine back problems are common. The result of our study showed that the chiropractors found back anomalies in 63% of the 400 dogs…dogs that “acted out” in other words, that exhibited over activity and aggression, 78% had spinal anomalies. Spinal anomalies seem to constitute an irritation that often results in stress reactions, aggression or fear. This is also in accordance with my own and my students’ experience with problematic dogs…Causes behind spinal anomalies. In our study there were some factors that correlated with spinal anomalies. These were: 1. Accidents. 2.Pulling on leash. 3 Limping during adolescence.
2. Pulling on leash; Of those dogs that had Cervical (neck) anomalies, 91% had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a leash. There is a risk of “whip-lash” from jerking the leash that increases if the dog wears a choke chain. Choke chains are constructed such that pulling it results in pressure distributed around the dog’s neck, but the muscles that absorb the pressure a situated mostly at the sides of the neck. The neck and throat are almost unprotected. For many years people have been criticized for the use of choke chains and training methods that use jerking and pulling on a leash as a means of controlling behavior. Unfortunately, most dog trainers use just this technique. There is probably a relationship between the force of the jerk and risk of injury.
I believe dog owners should be warned that chaining a dog to anything firm, without surveillance increases the risk of a spinal injury. A dog can easily forget the boundaries of the chain or rope, accelerate, and suddenly come to a halt, with all the stopping power concentrated around the dog’s neck.”

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
[$#61623] 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
[$#61623] The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
[$#61623] Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
[$#61623] Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

Tri Tronics Remote Electric training Collars.
Clinical studies have been designed and conducted for Tri-Tronics by veterinarians and physiologists at a major university. The scientific studies tested for possible cardiopulmonary and epidermal effects of Tri-Tronics electrical stimulation applied to the ventral surface of the neck of healthy dogs. These studies showed that there are no clinically significant changes in electrocardiograms, blood pressures or properties of the skin underlying the contact points. The clinical investigations involved parameters of electrical stimulation (e.g. maximum output voltage, output impedance, current density, and repetition rate) that are basically the same for all our models. The safety of these units is supported by strong scientific clinical data. Both the collar and the transmitter have redundant safety cutoff features which shut down the unit and prevent excessive stimulation.

OK just an update on this one - while Max didn't like Tobasco or Bitter Lime - we have found the last couple of days that a sharp shake on the collar and NO! diffuses the situation quickly - don't know wether this is a temporary situation but it has worked for a couple of days - so far so good :D

Hi Banger:

Just a friendly keep your chin up comment. :D. I can't imagine how you can persevere like you do. I would be mental by now. I really admire your stick-to-itness.

Butter

Hi Banger

I haven't followed all your threads but it sounds like something is working for you at last :)
Max is being true to his herding instincts by trying to keep the family all together and retreiving your Mum if she wanders away :) However, as this is an undesirable instinct then perhaps your Mum and everyone else should get into the habit of tucking their hands under their armpits and turning their arms away from him when he is around them thereby not presenting him with hands or a sleeve and breaking this behavioural pattern.
If you want to give yourself a break without completely excluding Max from the room then Argos do a really useful dog gate which is tall enough for a GSD. He can see straight through it.
I personally wouldn't recommend the collars mentioned. They can be difficult to use on a dog with a hairy neck and some dogs have been found to have become habituated and addicted to the Citronella spray - making the undesirable behaviour more frequent. I certainly wouldn't put them anywhere near a nervous dog.
If Max is possessive and irritating with his toys then try two or three. When he brings his toy back to you then produce another one and pretend that it is far more interesting than the one that he has got. Gently but firmly encourage him to release the toy he has and then instantly reward him with another one. Pick up the original one and repeat. :)

Banger you are so funny [lol]. My puppie chewed the kitchen legs to bits and I am left with
tall stumps that should look like elegant fat horse legs we tried all sorts of weird
potions he loved mustard .So now waiting to buy a new table .

Banger- I hope you're remembering everything- I'm buying a GSD and it looks like you've came across every problem imaginable- so I'll just cut to the chase and come to straight to you for advice:D :D :D

LOL well dont let me put you off Kash, I'm sure Max is one in a million :D :rolleyes: I love the GSD and am sure that Max has a few quirks which are not typical of the breed.

I think MAX would have a few quirks whatever breed he was:d even a catleft suggestion in fleas post for you bangor

Banger:) I think you should parade Max around on a trolley like the character Hanabal
Lecter [lol ]

Do you mean stuffed patricia ? We already have the "face mask" for paw cleaning :D Max has also developed green fingers now, well green teeth. His latest 'trick' is to uproot our rose bushes and carry them round the garden like a trophy :rolleyes:

ha ha ha I bet the poor sweetie was dropped on his head at birth :)
My poor Zac got the ali G slang :Dat him lunch time :EEK:My husband went round a corner and two young girls walked into him:EEK: And started saying hystrical things to
to Zac.
all unprintable :EEK: Poor old Zac kept looking back like a naughty boy :)

Patricia

Do you use bonemeal or similar feed for your roses? It may be that's the reason for Max's behaviour with the roses - he thinks they smell like bones (but knowing Max - he probably just thinks it's a good thing to do to get attention ;-))