hi every body, this is going to upset some people but i just want to get it sorted in my head. i have read alot of the siting here and i am a little concerned. i would never dream of breeding a dog with any health problems and especially not gentic ones, but what has happened to breeding dogs to be good pets. i am not suggesting that show quality dogs do not make good pets but your every day dog owner does not show. alot of people seem more concern with the animal being a perfect specimen than having a good temperment, being good with kids ect.
i breed working sheep dogs (that dont work!) as they are loving freindly companions. they are not papered however they have a full health check before they are breed from.
the border collie originated from the working sheep dog so how are they elible for registration where the sheep dog arent.
i do think that it is important to preserve the breeds but you hear of breeds all the time that have been ruined by breeding. i believe that many british bull dog bitches cant pup by them selves anymore and need a ceserian as the breed has been bred smaller ect.
many of my owners  or any owner for that matter want a pet and spay or cut their dogs. they dont want to breed from them so why does it matter if the colour doesnt fall in the breed standard. the colour must be present or the animal wouldnt be that colour.
are the breed societies getting too hung up on the perfect dog which is extreamly hard to breed and everyone has thier own prefrences anyway.
i dont wish to upset anyone but surely the breed will suffer through gene pools if only the dogs who show can be breed from.
i also take offence at some posts that seem to assume that if you dont want to breed registered dogs you are not a worth while breeder and are doing more harm than good. my puppies are fit, heathly and loved and the homes they go to are vetted  just as a pedigree pups would be.
is this the opinion of all breeders or is it that they are so concerned with 'improving' the breed that they have forgotten that the dog is meant to be mans best friend reguardless if they have a pedigree or their parents look very preety in a ring or not!

Guest, Good Temperament are a given prerequisite for even considering an animal for breeding.  That said most dogs will make excellent pets, but most are not good enough to breed from.  Unless one strives to breed from the best specimins as regards the breed standard then very quickly you will have dogs that bear little resemblance to their breed.  I see lots ofoversize yorkies, with floppy ears and wrong coloured coats.  Avaliers that look like Welsh Springers etc etc.  these people have been cheated,a dn would just as well have got a cross from the dogs home, rather than lining the pocket of a poor breeder.

When someone wants a particular breed, then they want some things to be as they would expect, a predictable size, colour even general outlook on life, in other words typical traits for the breed.

In any one litter you will be lucky to get one outstanding pup, but the rest should still be good ones.  Just because they are Pets, people are still entitiltled to have a good example of their breed rather than a poor one, after all the costs of keeping them are the same?

Also there are lots of Champion quality dogs that are never shown, many times a breeder has a dog returned only to find it is far superior to the one they kept at 8 weeks of age.

My Champion bitch came back to me at 8 1/2 months old, I knew she was pick of litter and had hoped someone would buy her to show, but a good home is more important.  Things didn't work out, and she needed a lot of work before she would be rehomeable, and I started showing her, and decided she would stay.  People who bought a dog from me came to our club shows, and at 2 years old I suggested they have a go and show, as they were coming anyway.  The dog now has 2CCs and a RCC, and was the last in the litter to go, only for a pet.

Those so called breeders who say that the quality of the pups doesn't matter as they are only going for pets, are pulling the wool over peoples eyes, because they are breeding for profit and convenience and not for the betterment of the breed.

So all your dogs are health checked. Do you have their hips scored? Do you have their eyes tested by a specialist? Presumably, you have to use stud dogs from outside - do you know their health history? Why exactly are you breeding? The majority of puppies, whoever breeds them go to pet homes, so a reputable breeder puts temperament above everything when breeding. I breed in the hope of improving my breed, but 2 of the 3 from latest litter will go to  pet homes, so to ensure these puppies have the best possible start I have used a dog & bitch with lovely natures. Good examples of a breed and good temperament are not mutually exclusive. It doesn't matter if you produce something that is not within the breed standard, they do go as pets & are none the worse for that. What is wrong is in breeding from that dog and so perpetuating the fault.
The Border Collie is registered because it has been bred for years to be an instantly recognised "type" whose pedigrees can be traced back a long way. A working sheepdog can have anything in its background. That's not being derogatory, but if 2 of unknown ancestry were bred together it could not be predicted what the puppies would look like or even whether they would have any working ability.
People are free to choose whether or not to have a purebred dog. Those who do, usually do so because they want to have a good idea of what they are getting - something you cannot predict if you just put 2 dogs with good temperament together.

here here!! a dog shouldnt have to win at shows to be "good enough" for breeding pet puppies. yes, the dog should be health tested and well-bred but why should you have to show to "be in the know"? Ive never had the urge to go to a dogshow, and I never will. I value working ability in my dogs above aesthetic beauty.

guest, i totally agree with you about bulldogs and border collies!! If you look at show border collies they are often longer in the leg, fluffier and longer coated and have different ear carriage from the working sheepdogs they are descended from, quite simply because they are now bred as a show dog, and the wide variety of coat lengths and ear/tail carriages (some working sheepdogs produce stumpie-tails, smooth coats, prick ears, etc) are being bred out as a showy dog becomes the "in" thing, more like a rough collie than a border collie. as for bulldogs, I feel they could be doing with being bred more along the lines of the original bulldog which was longer in the leg, a little longer in the muzzle and more athletic. breathing and whelping difficulties are making bulldogs less like the dogs they once were and still should be. take GSDs for example. I saw an article in a dog magazine a while ago showing some photos of show dogs of 50-60 years ago, they were much more square in outline, more like a husky, nice straight backs and less angulated hind quarters, i bet those dogs suffered a lot less from HD than todays dogs which slope diagonally downwards from the shoulder, hips swaying as they walk, tails dragging on the ground! I feel that dogs kept for a specific purpose rather than bred to a standard for showing (ie: sheepdogs/hounds/working terriers/lurchers etc) tend to have a lot less hereditary problems as their gene pool is wider and there is less urgency to breed for a specific colour, marking, size or weight as determined by human fashions and fickleness.

Wow, so much to answer here!  I read this post first time this morning, and couldnt bring myself to answer in a civilised manner.  So having time to cool off, here goes -  you are breeding Working Sheepdogs and selling them as ideal family pets!  Who is responsible for all the unwanted young adults when the "ideal families" can no longer cope with the sheepdog tendencies in normal family life?  Do you have the facilities to take them back and rehome them (if such homes can be found)  The working sheepdog is a wonderful animal, highly intelligent, very active, extremely agile.  It needs an experienced owner, lots of training, and tons of excercise/space.  If not it becomes bored, destructive, not good to have in the family home.  Furthermore its in built talent to herd is not at all desirable in a pet, and can lead to it rounding up the kids, nipping visitors heels etc.  I fully understand the breeding of working sheepdogs for farm life, and I know that lots who dont make the grade for the job intended do go on to be pets, but to deliberately breed and sell them as pets is just not fair on either the pups or the new families.  Then there is the health question, and hereditary.  How do you choose your stud dogs, what is the extent of the "health check" you carry out?  Does it include tests for CEA?

Trouble is, you  represent yourself as a caring breeder, and slate off genuine, knowledgeable breeders as only being interested in showing.  The truth is, we who care about the breed often like to see the fruits of our efforts winning in the show ring, but the vast majority of the pups we sell are sold as pets, to families.  It is only the creme de la creme which makes the grades for showing (and a whole lot of the show dogs are family pets too).  However, we care about the whole dog, and strive to breed not only for exceptional temerament and mental stability but also for excellent health, suitability for purpose, good confirmation, movement and other breed specific desirable traits.  These all go towards making a good pet as well as a good show dog.  We are also interested in minimising inheritable undesirable traits being passed on, which is only possible with extensive health tests down the generations plus  in depth pedigree research and knowledge.

A whole lot of caring breeder also put something extra into the breed, by supporting or running the breed rescue service, most of which are needed becasue irresponsible breeders just breed regardless, and sell pups without thought of suitability. 

So, Guest,  what are your reasons for breeding?  Do you feel that there is such a shortage of pups available that you are filling a much wanted niche in the marketplace, and happily give your pups away, or are you in it for a quick buck, and have picked an unregistered "breed" as the ideal basis for your little venture?
bye
Gwen

Hi Guest.
I would hazard a guess that I am one of the people you are referring to with this post I I'll try to explain some of my thinking.

Taking your points one at a time.

1<<i would never dream of breeding a dog with any health problems and especially not gentic ones, but what has happened to breeding dogs to be good pets. i am not suggesting that show quality dogs do not make good pets but your every day dog owner does not show. alot of people seem more concern with the animal being a perfect specimen than having a good temperment, being good with kids ect>>

Most dogs which are bred go as pet dog, even working or show dogs. My Labradors work but they are first and foremost my friends and companions. The temperament of a dog is, or should be, a function of it's purpose. A working gundog should possess a good temperament or it could never do its job. A working sheepdog on the other hand should have a concidderably harder nature to allow it do its job of herding which is a show of controlled aggression.

2<< i breed working sheep dogs (that dont work!) as they are loving freindly companions. they are not papered however they have a full health check before they are breed from.>>

I presume by papered you mean KC registered? In which case this is not strictly true. You cannot have an unregistered dog hip scored!

3<<the border collie originated from the working sheep dog so how are they elible for registration where the sheep dog arent.>>

The Border Collie originated from Working sheepdogs which were registered with the International Sheepdog Society and therefore could trace their pedigree back through that society.

4<<i do think that it is important to preserve the breeds but you hear of breeds all the time that have been ruined by breeding>>

This has happened in some breeds and it is the duty of the governing body to insure that the breed standard does not lead to problems. The case you site of Bulldogs is one which I would say is easy to see WITH HINDSITE.

5<< i dont wish to upset anyone but surely the breed will suffer through gene pools if only the dogs who show can be breed from.>>

To a certain extent I agree that gene pools can get restricted and that is something laa people need to watch.

6<< are the breed societies getting too hung up on the perfect dog which is extreamly hard to breed and everyone has thier own prefrences anyway.>>

Is aspiring to breed the perfect example of the breed wrong??? As for preferences, a visit to any breed show ring will show plenty of differences in any breed for example, some people prefer a finer head than other.

7<<i also take offence at some posts that seem to assume that if you dont want to breed registered dogs you are not a worth while breeder and are doing more harm than good>>

OK, so I want a Labrador. How would I know it is a genuine Labrador without that bit of paper? How, if as so many people do I decide after buying the puppy I decide I would like to show or work my new Labrador what could I do? I would be out of the loop as far as that dog is concerned. Remember all show people start at some time and most start with a pet which they had no intention of showing when they brought it.

8<< is this the opinion of all breeders or is it that they are so concerned with 'improving' the breed that they have forgotten that the dog is meant to be mans best friend reguardless if they have a pedigree or their parents look very preety in a ring or not!>>

Not quite sure what you are driving at here!

I notice you did not mention crossbreeds. As it happens, along with possibly the bulk of the people on here my first dog was a cross! So why have pedigrees? The main reason is that you then know pretty well what your puppy will look like, the size it will grow to and it's natural temperament and lifestyle. You are also able to check for health testing where the cross or non registered dog falls outside the loop.

A lot has been said about Crossbreed health but I'm afraid this is a mirage. In fact the cross can inherit the ailments of both breeds!

So why buy from an established breeder, be it a show or a working person? These people, as we try to stress on here SHOULD know their breed and more particularly their line better that less informed people. A working knowledge of genetics in as far as how hereditary ailments are inherited is something most pet people just are not in a position to know. A show person is looking at the progeny of a stud dog at the shows each week so knows far more about what the dog is likely to throw than any pet dog person. It would be doubtful if they have ever seen a litter of puppies sired by the dog.

Sorry this is rather long but you did raise rather a lot of points. I hope this gives you some idea where I'm coming from when I criticise someone's breeding ideas on here.

Regards, John 

Not much to add other than to echo what Gwen has said.  On the whole working sheepdogs do not make ideal family pets!!!!!! I'd be interested to know how many you take back.  I have several working sheepdogs that didn't quite meet the requirements of their original owners.  Jazz nipped the children in his first home so was rehomed to an older couple who coped with him for a whole 24 hours.  Tig bit the husband of his ideal family after being disciplined. Dee's ideal family taught her to guard her food, toys and bed and to chase cars.  Hovis, we suspect was given away free to a good home when he got too much and ended up incarcerated on a puppy farm.  Lucy was chained in the garden because she chewed the children's toys and Kim was bought by a family who saw his breeder doing a sheepdog demo at a country show and decided they would like one of his puppies.  Add to that the dozen or so others that I have found new homes for with colleagues or agility freinds.  I am not a rescue by the way.

it is up to the breeder to stress to potential owners that working sheepdogs are energetic dogs which can become destructive if not given enough to do. I cannot speak for the guest who posted, but what we do when we have a litter from one of our WSDs is we state in the advert that they are energetic rascals who are best suited to agility/obedience homes and we put off anyone we dont think is suitable. if guest is reading this, i sugest if they dont allready do this for the pups they breed, they should, as a lot of people think border collies/wsds are so intelligent there is no need to train them!!!