Some of you may remember that I seperated a staffy and a Bull terrier in the park a few weeks back.
Well I saw the bully owner today and asked how things were going...outcome is the bully is now very untrustworthy around other dogs and the lady keeps her distance(I mean about 100ft) from anything on 4 legs,and the staffy has been PTS.The staffy owners had a go at the bully owner the other day about it but I assured the bully owner it was nothing to do with the injuries the dog had sustained(it had a tare on the ear and a couple of puncture wounds) I really think it was down to the staffy owners not wanting to take responsibilty for this dog.I feel sorry for the staff..he looked very well bred,he was a stuning looking boy and I'm sure in the right hands he could have lived out the rest of his life...on lead!!
Archer

That poor staff. Really cant understand people like that I mean if they got the dog then they should take responsibility for the poor thing. At the end of the day why is the dog like that in the first place?
Makes me so angry!!!!!

I know this is a controversial thing too say, but I do have anecdotal experience to make me think the following.  As I have been rescuing and rehoming dogs for years, it does appear that out of any breeds,   it is most common that the staffie owners dont take responsibilty for their dogs behaviour traits. I have lost count of the "there is this dog down my local park that whose owners lets do what it likes and dont believe in control or training and that attacks all the other dogs" comment - and when asked what is it - the answer is always staffie.  Even when i visit my sister and take my dog round her local park, when chatting too other users, the same is related to me.
Secondly, we have 2 local authority stray dog kennelling contracts - literally half these strays are Staffies.
Lastly, one morning finishing up cleaning our kennels - a Staffie - stray again - was jumping the height of the partition wall so he could get at the top bit which is just wire fencing, so he could pull though the leg of the dog next door who was jumping up in response (a GSD). Naturally, I banged an empty food dish against the front of their cages, and shouted "hey, pack it in", which stopped this.
An elderly visiting lady crouched over my shoulder and said "is their a problem", I replied, its OK, I've sorted it out.
I was then astounded when she railed at me that I'm out of order for telling off the staffie dog, etc, etc. 
I pointed out she doesnt know what's going on, and that the staffie was trying his best to injure the dog next door, so it is my rightful job to prevent his - to which she ranted further
"well, that's their nature, it's none of my business to interfere".
As she was rude and obviously unsuitable, I suggested she leave. I told her it was me she would have to see later on about adopting one of our dogs, she is wasting her time and should leave the premises. 
Instead, she stood out the front of the kennels, and accosted all further visitors slagging me off and saying we were a crap place to get a dog - one of our trustees then saw her off the premises.
But, the point of the long story is: I have encountered this "it's their nature" belief from many staffie owners or applicants.  But not once have I heard any applicants for Greyhounds argue with me that I am wrong to suggest they muzzle or lead walk Greyhounds to prevent injurty to small animals, as its "in their nature".  Nor the same when I instruct people to control the guarding instinct of GSD's, as it's "in their nature", etc, etc.
I understand there are great and responsible staffie owners who DO believe in 'training out' their breed traits - but they seem to be let down by a vast number of others, who fit a certain 'macho, ignorant, council estate', stereotype.

I agree with you entirely......that was extremely controversial......of the 3 thousand public housing tenants I Managed for 8 years....not one of them would fit the stereotyping that you have applied to them.
Jo

I live on a council estate and I'm not like that :( sob!

Really Zoe? Oh you do suprise me ;)

:rolleyes:

Kiwi
dont you find that alot of breeds can have idiotic irresponsible owners though ?

I have met many "O she/he doesnt normally do that " brigade of various and differing  breeds :rolleyes;

Every dog has its good and bad points and in turn each breed has its good and bad owners and I think your judgement is unfounded. Our bitch can run all day in a park and has no aggressive tendencies but she has had a PJRT bare its teeth at her been, jumped on by a boxer and is often looked at with disgust as if she is a killing machine and not allowed to play with other peoples sweetie darlings! A park is a public place for excerise and playing so why should a staffie walk on a lead but another dog can have the run of the park all day long? Is a Staffie not a dog? The reason so many staffies end up in rescues shelters is that people don't research enough into the breed before buying one and don't realise how much work it takes to keep Staffies. If Staffies are such bad dogs why are they one of only two dogs the KC recommend to have with young children? I do agree that the 'traits' that you say a staffie have are in its lines but it needs to be brought out of them and is done so by people who do not love the breed and are ruthless and heartless. Imagine if everytime you went out people looked at you like you were a criminal for the choice of dog you owned and all I can say is welcome to the wonderful world of owning a Staffie!

<<Imagine if everytime you went out people looked at you like you were a criminal for the choice of dog you owned and all I can say is welcome to the wonderful world of owning a Staffie! >>>

But isnt it nice to surprise one of these people when they realise how nice and well behaved your Staffy is ? :D

Had a guy ask me the other day how my dog was so well behaved as his dog was runnig around yapping at 100 miles an hour. Told him she was well behaved because we TRAINED her to be. Then he said does that mean we broke her will??? Didn;t even bother to talk to him any more and me and my well behaved dog walked away!

Yes, it is a very contraversial thing to say and probably very unjust - many staffie owners are extremely good owners and do not let their dogs be a menace to others.

In particular I would take exception to the way you discipline your dogs by banging a bowl on the fencing. 

i was called in to put right the damage done to an 'innocent' by-stander (dog) who happened to be housed next door to a dog who was so disciplined by staff and who had the most unbelievable reaction to noise you could imagine.  The poor thing stood and messed itself as a result.  Don't forget, when you adminster such discipline to one dog in a run you administer to all within earshot and unfortunately they don't understand it isn't they that are at fault or why.

If I was that lady who witnessed your actions I think I'd be inclined to find out if there was a way to get you disciplined not the dog.

Don't tar us all with the same brush please!!  I own a Staff amongst other breeds, and he's been well trained and socialised since I got him at 7 weeks old.  He won his first obedience comp. at 6 months old and had his bronze good citizens at 7 months.  I also don't like the sound of how you discipline your dogs in the kennel, and would not like you working for me.  Staffs are very sensitive, a point which you obviously don't know!!  Maybe you should read up on the breed before making comments like this.

Sarah.

Kiwi

A note I should have added to my earlier reply.  Get to know your dogs individually - advising people who rehome greyhounds to get them muzzled or only lead-walk them is too simplistic.  Not all greyhounds chase small furries just as all BC don't chase cars!  I rehomed one that lived very happily with my other cats and dogs and was allowed to free run in secure public areas where rabbits roamed.  He didn't chase them either.  Neither do a lot of other greyhounds.  Yes, it can be a trait in the breed but not all are that predatory so you can't generalise.

Hi Archer

The owners of the staffie may have had to put him down due to injury - depends where the puncture wounds were.  A GSD broke its chain and got my a dog of mine some years back.  It picked him up and shook him before I managed to pin it down and retrieve my dog!.  Injuries at first glance didn't seem bad - two small, clean puncture wounds but I took him to the vets anyway.  Just as well, the punctures had punctured a lung which collapsed and he hovered between life and death for days.  He did survive though.   It may be that the staffie's injuries were more than appeared.

I don't think so ..the puncture wounds were on the loose kin just below the ear...there was VERY little bleeding and the wounds were not deep...I checked.There was never any contact with the staffy body..The BT was on a VERY tight lead.
The woman who owned/walked the dog was not what I would call a 'dog' person.She was totally freaked out by  the fight and instead of 'sorting 'it  she just stood there screaming.
She was not in control and had no idea about what to do and I'm sure this dog was not fighting for the first time.I told her the fight was her fault....despite the fact that I had to hit the BT with a big stick(more like a small tree) to get it off.
I'm pretty sure she was either frightened of getting in trouble over the incident...I would have stood up for the BT owner or ws so shocked by the incident that she decided she could not cope with the dog.
Archer

     I live on a council estate, own a Stafford and have owned Staffs since 1978.
     I agree that a lot of so called Stafford owners don't realise what they are taking on. Staffords are percieved as a "hard/macho" dog. But in reality they are sensitive they may be almost oblivious to a smack (not that I hasten to add before anyone jumps in the band wagon that I hit my dogs I DO NOT.) But raise your voice in anger and they look at you in that ay as if to say "Don't shout" You need to "know/learn" the way Staffords think and understand what will get their attention or cause trouble before it happens.
   
    There are thousands of Staffs and Staff X's in rescue more than at one time I would ever of thought possible. And that upsets me.
    It is not the way I want to see the breed I love go forward, but unless people are willing to take the time with their "gorgeous, oh he's just a baby leave him puppy". To train him/her to behave then we will continue to have Staffords and Stafford X's in rescue.  That sadly is a fact of life, as much I wished it wasn't.
    But I would also like to say Staffordshire Bull Terriers in the right home are the BEST dog in the world bar none.

Karen       

Luxnallsstaffs, yes, some of our worse biters have been little Terriers.
I didnt say that the Staffie breed arent allowed to be in the park off-lead.
One time in my sisters park, I witnessed a lady railing at an owner just because his dog was a Staffie and was mixing with her off-lead Collie X - I made a point by imeadiatley walking over to the Staffie and got my dog (GSD) to charge around playing heartily with him - this shut her up!
The reason most breeds end up in Rescues is lack of research, the reason most staffies end up in our kennels is because they are dumped and abandoned strays picked up by our local dog wardens - this accounts for 50% of our strays, the other 50% is all other breeds - the Staffies, Terriers, and GSD's have the lowest reclamation rates.
As a Rescue, our systems are evolved through experience, and connections through other Rescues, so our practises aren't related to the Kennel Club, which governs a completly unrelated area of Dog Breeeding and Showing - but I dont think you would find many people that agree with the official line you report that their are only 2 breeds that are recommended with young children?
I absolulty agree - the Staffie negative breed traits are bought out by people who dont love the breed and are ruthless and heartless - these are the people I was referring to.
Yes, it is terrible that people look at you like you are a criminal for the choice of dog you own - Staffie and Rottie owners are terribly tarnsihed this way.  Once, I rehomed a wonderful Staffie X English Bull Terrier to a young man living alone - he had a learning difficulty that made him unable to work but able enough in life, with a fantastic family support network.  Some local prejudiced busy-body dropped an anonymous letter to the police that he was an incapable man who has just bought a 'pit bull'.
It was only through the respect these police officers had for our intervention, our staff and our establishment that they brushed this aside as the malicious victimising that it was.
Hello Suzieque, you sound like a fellow dog professional.  We dont disicipline our dogs by banging bowls onto their kennels - I dont believe I said this?  You will be interested to note this was an isolated event that occured 2 years ago. I am assuming you know of the 'interrupting the behaviour' concept? 
By banging the bowl on the kennel, I was able to stop the Staffie just in time before he actually sunk his teeth into the GSD's foot that was poking through the wire.  This gave me the vital seconds to unlock the security door and remove the Staffie.
I explained this sequence of events to this visitor BEFORE she proceeded to be rude and ignorant.
You must understand this situation from the time you picked up, shook, and pinned down a GSD?
You actually physically and harshly manhandled the dog in your situation, something I actually didnt do, but, of course, I wouldnt dream of saying you should be punished for your actions, as they were obviously a justified response to an emergency - just like mine.
You may also be interested to know the reason we give ourselves that extra few seconds of pressure in an emergency to unlock extra security is because we have had 4 Staffies stolen over time, including broad daylight, by the hard rough stereotypes whom we had turned when they applied to adopt these Staffies.
We dont say that all Greyhounds should be muzzled and kept on leads because they all harm small furries, we are simply advising on the dogs that ALREADY have their problems, due to the mistakes of the previous owners.  We recently lost our free roaming "farm dog" of 10 years - he happily coexisted with about 40 semi-feral farm cats, and he was......a Greyhound!
When we do get a clean slate pup - or 'problem free dog' - rare - we teach the necessary handling, management, and training, and inform them of any 'breed related problems' that may ensue if they dont follow our programmes.
Mali, hello, I thought I hadnt tarred you all with the same brush when I said I know their are some good Staffie owners out their? As I i think Kaz is trying to say, I was concerned about the irresponsible Staffie owners who are tarring people like you.
Yes, stereotypes are bad, but this doesnt mean people don't enact them.  The regular unfortunate staffie owner and applicant we have to deal with is instantly recognisable to all our staff.  They look and behave in certain ways, and are hostile and awkward when they cant get what they want - one of our Staffies.  It is a certain sub-culture that mainly lives in the council estates, and the people that report these guys to our Rescue Centre are actually the other park users and residents from these same estates.
Near us there is also a sub-culture also with quickly identifiable looks, behaviours, and addresses, who always enquire after our Lurchers for the wrong reasons - these too are rebuffed.
We have done our breed research, and due to the problems I explained that are commonly and uniquely  presented by our staffie applicants, this is the only breed whereby we have an extra layer of assessment whereby we refer them to someone who works for Staffie Rescue. She volunteered this service because as a STAFFIE OWNER AND WORKER she was sick of these 'macho, rough Staffie types' herself.
Reality isn't good sometimes, but not pointing it out doesnt make it untrue - if you are not involved with this reality, as I am, you would not know of it.
This Staffie owner and applicant judgment I have reported is far from controversy amongst my Rescue colleagues, and automatically accepted without comment.
Generally, our Staffies get the largest amount of applicants, but still take the longest time to place with the right person, as most of the applicants are totally irresponsible or unsavoury - whereas, generally speaking, the other breeds take less applications before the right person is found.
Some. come on, why arent the good Staffie picking coming to rescue more often?

No, Kiwi, I didn't pick up,pin down and shake the GSD -  It did that to my dog!  I merely held it still so that it could not inflict more damage than it already had and waited until it dropped my dog!!  There was no other physical action on my part, please don't try to make out there was.
 
And yes, I do know and understand 'interrupting behaviour' but banging empty food dishes on metal caging effects all dogs within earshot often adversely.  Dogs that come into kennels are often traumatised by events in their life before they arrived, they are even more traumatised by the change from home life to kennel life, they get even more anxious about the general noise levels of other dogs barking and to add banging empty bowls on metal for whatever reason is only adding further damage to already damaged dogs.

I know kennels are a necessity unfortunately but there has to be ways of limiting the damage inadvertently inflicted.

Luxnallsstaffs, yes, some of our worse biters have been little Terriers.
I didnt say that the Staffie breed arent allowed to be in the park off-lead.
One time in my sisters park, I witnessed a lady railing at an owner just because his dog was a Staffie and was mixing with her off-lead Collie X - I made a point by imeadiatley walking over to the Staffie and got my dog (GSD) to charge around playing heartily with him - this shut her up!
The reason most breeds end up in Rescues is lack of research, the reason most staffies end up in our kennels is because they are dumped and abandoned strays picked up by our local dog wardens - this accounts for 50% of our strays, the other 50% is all other breeds - the Staffies, Terriers, and GSD's have the lowest reclamation rates.
As a Rescue, our systems are evolved through experience, and connections through other Rescues, so our practises aren't related to the Kennel Club, which governs a completly unrelated area of Dog Breeeding and Showing - but I dont think you would find many people that agree with the official line you report that their are only 2 breeds that are recommended with young children?
I absolulty agree - the Staffie negative breed traits are bought out by people who dont love the breed and are ruthless and heartless - these are the people I was referring to.
Yes, it is terrible that people look at you like you are a criminal for the choice of dog you own - Staffie and Rottie owners are terribly tarnsihed this way.  Once, I rehomed a wonderful Staffie X English Bull Terrier to a young man living alone - he had a learning difficulty that made him unable to work but able enough in life, with a fantastic family support network.  Some local prejudiced busy-body dropped an anonymous letter to the police that he was an incapable man who has just bought a 'pit bull'.
It was only through the respect these police officers had for our intervention, our staff and our establishment that they brushed this aside as the malicious victimising that it was.
Hello Suzieque, you sound like a fellow dog professional.  We dont disicipline our dogs by banging bowls onto their kennels - I dont believe I said this?  You will be interested to note this was an isolated event that occured 2 years ago. I am assuming you know of the 'interrupting the behaviour' concept? 
By banging the bowl on the kennel, I was able to stop the Staffie just in time before he actually sunk his teeth into the GSD's foot that was poking through the wire.  This gave me the vital seconds to unlock the security door and remove the Staffie.
I explained this sequence of events to this visitor BEFORE she proceeded to be rude and ignorant.
You must understand this situation from the time you picked up, shook, and pinned down a GSD?
You actually physically and harshly manhandled the dog in your situation, something I actually didnt do, but, of course, I wouldnt dream of saying you should be punished for your actions, as they were obviously a justified response to an emergency - just like mine.
You may also be interested to know the reason we give ourselves that extra few seconds of pressure in an emergency to unlock extra security is because we have had 4 Staffies stolen over time, including broad daylight, by the hard rough stereotypes whom we had turned when they applied to adopt these Staffies.
We dont say that all Greyhounds should be muzzled and kept on leads because they all harm small furries, we are simply advising on the dogs that ALREADY have their problems, due to the mistakes of the previous owners.  We recently lost our free roaming "farm dog" of 10 years - he happily coexisted with about 40 semi-feral farm cats, and he was......a Greyhound!
When we do get a clean slate pup - or 'problem free dog' - rare - we teach the necessary handling, management, and training, and inform them of any 'breed related problems' that may ensue if they dont follow our programmes.
Mali, hello, I thought I hadnt tarred you all with the same brush when I said I know their are some good Staffie owners out their? As I i think Kaz is trying to say, I was concerned about the irresponsible Staffie owners who are tarring people like you.
Yes, stereotypes are bad, but this doesnt mean people don't enact them.  The regular unfortunate staffie owner and applicant we have to deal with is instantly recognisable to all our staff.  They look and behave in certain ways, and are hostile and awkward when they cant get what they want - one of our Staffies.  It is a certain sub-culture that mainly lives in the council estates, and the people that report these guys to our Rescue Centre are actually the other park users and residents from these same estates.
Near us there is also a sub-culture also with quickly identifiable looks, behaviours, and addresses, who always enquire after our Lurchers for the wrong reasons - these too are rebuffed.
We have done our breed research, and due to the problems I explained that are commonly and uniquely  presented by our staffie applicants, this is the only breed whereby we have an extra layer of assessment whereby we refer them to someone who works for Staffie Rescue. She volunteered this service because as a STAFFIE OWNER AND WORKER she was sick of these 'macho, rough Staffie types' herself.
Reality isn't good sometimes, but not pointing it out doesnt make it untrue - if you are not involved with this reality, as I am, you would not know of it.
This Staffie owner and applicant judgment I have reported is far from controversy amongst my Rescue colleagues, and automatically accepted without comment.
Generally, our Staffies get the largest amount of applicants, but still take the longest time to place with the right person, as most of the applicants are totally irresponsible or unsavoury - whereas, generally speaking, the other breeds take less applications before the right person is found.
So, come on, why arent the good Staffie picking coming to rescue more often?

Kiwi

You may not see 'interrupting behaviour' by banging a bowl on fencing as discipline but it is.  Discipline is 'exercising control over the behaviour of another'  and this is exactly what happened when the staffie went for another dog at your kennels.   That's not to say the behaviour should not be interrupted - it should it is the method that I questioned. 

When I held down the GSD to interrupt it's behaviour no other dog was affected by what I did except mine which got dropped.  Therefore the knock on effect was only to the good of my dog whereas no harm whatsoever was done to any other including the errant GSD!!

I would just like to say that although you seen these dogs fight, you cant tell what the damage has been on the inside. Maybe it was a vets desicion to put the dog to sleep. When reading what everyone has wrote here I agree and disagree with some points. Staffs are nice dogs, my next door neighbour has one, he always comes in my garden everyday to play with the cat and my small dog. However, the dog is never invited into my garden his owners open their door and let him go where he pleases. This is not the dogs fault its his owners. Numerous occasions Ive rescued him from nearly being ran over with cars and my neighbours never say anything. They just take him back to their house and after a while the whole thing starts again. I have actually now reported them as I dont want to see this dog get hurt or even killed. The other thing I want to comment on is dogs on leads. There is nothing more intimidating than another dog rushing towards you. Im not scared of dogs, but the fact is, you dont know what the dogs intentions are. The owner may know that it just wants to say hello, but when your on the receiving end you cant be so sure. I think its completely irresponsible not having dogs on leads. If your in an area that is meant for dogs and its secure then fine let them off the lead, but if not then keep the lead on. That applies to any breed of dog. The other thing that really annoys me is people getting a dog when they know nothing about the breed. It just doesnt make any sense. Completely defies logic. Staffs are a gentle breed and thanks to a whole load of idiots they are getting a terrible reputation, any breed of dog can be aggressive, it doesnt matter what kind it is. Its what these idiot owners have caused. Where I live staffs and staff x are everywhere. Its like a breed of dog becomes the 'fashion' and everyone gets one without knowing anything about them or any dog in general. I feel sorry for these dogs, the breeders, and the loving owners who are seeing them turn up in dog homes and rescue centres in a right sorry state. People should be more responsible.

Kat.

I feel very sorry for the lady with her BT and the poor Staff who was PTS. As a tenant and a housing professional I am also VERY offended by the stereotypes applied to me and my customers. Irresponsible owners come from every social class as a well known public figure illustrated recently, and own every breed of dog. Whatever the breed you get the dog you deserve. I hope the BT lady will get some help to overcome this and enjoy her dog again.

I do think Kiwi made some sweeping generalisations (Which I don't agree with), but I thought she was trying to make the point that it is not Staffies that are bad dogs, but just that they seem to attract neglectful owners (not all obviously!).  I have to say that someone I know at my sons school bred a litter of staffs last summer - she made a comment to me along the lines of - yes 9 puppies at £xxxs each (rubbing her hands together), when I asked her about homes for them she said that they'd all be sold in a weekend! She obviously saw them as money makers and had no cares where they went.  I think because of their popularity, they do attract alot of the wrong sort of owner unfortunately.

Fiona

No please don't get me wrong I think Staffords do attract owners who are thoughtless, uncaring and just plain thick - like most breeds do but Staffords I think are similar to GSD's and maybe Rotties and Dobes (no offence) in this that they attract a larger percentage of the "macho/hard" cases who are actually far from it and think having a dog of the above breeds raises their "street cred"
Which upsets me greatly as Staffords are my breed and the same a Lel when someone praises my dog saying its a shock to see a well behaved Staff, I say thats odd because most I've meet have been brilliant.
Maybe all Staff owners aren't so bad and the ones who are good are fanatical about the breeds welfare. :)

Karen  

sorry if my post is a bit too long, and whoops, i posted it twice, and in the wrong slot  - i'm not trying to get extra attention!! honest, it was a genuine mistake
Cheers, kiwi

Do you all think that some of the problems attributed to Staffs are, in fact, Staff crosses, there seems to be a real desire to breed and own a dog produced by unsuitable Staffy matings. Some of these matings seem to be, to the casual onlooker, an attempt to reproduce a Pit Bull or a Toza look alike. There seems to be a ready market for a large mastiff type dog that has been bred to emphasise the worse dog aggression traits in the largest possible package, one does wonder why, we hear all sorts of reasons being put forward and so far none ring true, IMO it is just an excuse to try and produce a dangerous dog and the larger the better. None of this is any help to the friendly normal happy little Staff who is sometimes involved in the experiments.

Then, of course, there are those who own the best possible Staffy in the world and simple have to breed from it, not consideration given to if it is to breed standard or of typical temperament.

Jackie
I agree with many of your points but there are also pure Staffys than can be dog agressive ( not just crosses). It just needs a sensible and responsible owner to handle the dog and be aware of others .
Thats why someone looking into the possibility of owning a dog needs to carefully consider what is involved . It is fine for the novice owner to think "well they are good with children" but they need to consider how they would handle any negative points too.  That goes for ANY breed at all and no one should buy a dog (whatever breed) purely for its looks . Each breed has its own  traits, both good and bad and thats why research should always be done.

just wish idiots would leave the breed alone and stop giving it the awful reputation it has/had :(

Lel, that is why I said some of the problem ;) add to that the fact that the Staffs with the poor temprements in the hands of novice breeder are no doubt also being bred, leaves one nothing but depressed.

Jackie
sorry if you thought I was directing post at you - I wasnt .

just trying to make the point to those who may not know
that its not JUST crosses with bad temperaments (for those who may think a pure bred KC registered dog automatically means there will be no problems with health or temperament)
:)

( and again that goes for ANY breed , not just staffs)

That is true Lel, even from a litter of perfectly amiable dogs you can get the odd evil one, but if you have any sense you make dam sure it is not bred from and go back and check the ancestry of the dam and sire to make sure it has not happened before and if it has you remove them from your breeding programme if you can, and if you can't you would not repeat the mating and would keep a very close eye on any future offspring.

Alexanders, you hit the nail on the head. Many people are breeding dogs purely for money. I know that responable breeders take into account costs such as vet fees and other things. This is because they care about their dogs and when you consider the cost of vets then there is not much money in it. So, when you get people that dont care they just see £ signs. They then dont care about who is buying their puppies, and you end up with this situation. I know that some breeders require a new owner to sign a spay/neuter contract but who's there to follow that up? I am not to sure how that contract works. It really is unfortunate, that many dogs are being put together to make puppies just so the owners can make money. Something should be done to prevent this but Im not to sure what.

Kat

I have to agree that the staffs i am most worried about are staff X,i must reinerate that i am not fearful for myself or my kids BUT for my little dogs,i hate to say this but i have yet to come accross a DOG friendly staff X,it's been donkeys years since i have seen a pure staff!The vast majority of pure ones i have met have been people and dog friendly,something in their brains must click when they are crossed as i have not met one that can be trusted off lead around other dogs.

christine

mmmmm

controversial yeah...

I own a staffie x.

He is not brilliant around other dogs, although he CAN be trusted off lead at a certain distance because i have trained an excellent recall.

The question is, WHY is my staff x not good with other dogs?

Well, as a small pup, he was attacked, on various occasions and by various breeds.... border collies, golden retrievers, small terriers of all kinds, Old English Sheepdog... etc etc. He has NEVER been attacked by a staff or staffie x, and i know plenty of them, i live on a council estate and yes, every other dog is a staffie or staffie x.

I suspect that, bar the unfortunate few who choose a staffie because they are 'macho', most people on a low income in small houses would choose a staffie, they are small, easy to feed, great with kids and other people and generally lovely dogs.
On my estate the 'status' dogs are there, they are rotties, a mastiff x, some GSD's, i cant actually think of ANY 'status' staffies at all!

I have to say, since there seems to be a bit of a 'staffies are evil' vein running through this... of all the dogs ive met, the agressive and dangerous ones have been..... an OES (nervous aggression cause by owners and puppy farm background.. i will doubtless bear his teeth marks inmy arm till i die)..... border collie bitches x 3, a beardie x, several jack russels, a westie, a golden retriever, and a german shepherd bitch.

I tend to take a look at the owner, and how they are handling the dog before i make my mind up as to whether their dog is going to be a bad un..... NOT the breed of dog.

Despite having met various GSD's on my estate, several of which have attacked BOTH my dogs, i am currently dog sitting for two male gsd's, and my very nervous wimpy lurcher is having a ball, playing with his new big dog friends!

Oh and to the poster who thinks banging a bowl against teh kennel wire to stop a dog from fighting is a good idea...... how about you are probably making that dog MORE nervous, more wound up and sound sensitive, and less likely to be rehomable.
If teh dog has a problem with other dogs, house it away from them! Prevention being far better than cure!

Em

Cheers for  reply THEEMX - check back a few postings you will see I did move the dog - and that I didnt bang the empty bowl to "prevent dog fighting" - he already was fighting. It was an isolated incident 2 years ago - I reacted to an emergency - by what dog trainers call "interrupting the behaviour", meaning to divert his awareness from the object of his aggression back onto your voice. Quite simply, by doing this I saved the dog next door from having part of its paw bitten into/off - it was clear cut as that.
Considering I needed a few extra seconds breathing space to allow me time to unlock the security door and remove the dog, wouldnt any right minded individual think this a good idea instead of standing there to no avail shouting from the corridor at a dog whose senses are so shut down due the adrenaline of aggression, that he is oblivious to everything apart from maiming the dog next door?
This dog was one of the many aggressive abandoned Staffie types regularly picked up by the Dog Warden from a certain estate round our way. It hit the roof screaming and stressing as soon as it entered the kennels and saw all the other dogs - so you can their was nothing nervous about this dog - and he was deemed extremely hard to rehome ONLY due to the previous so called 'owner' who encouraged these traits and then dumped him we they'd had enough - or more likely couldnt cope any longer with what they'd created.
We created new ways of kennelling these dogs where this incident never repeated and their was less risk -and we have recently solved the problem entirely, as we stopped the contract with the council which covered that specific estate. We still have our other council contract, and funny enough, we barely get any stray Staffies now, and the few recently picked up from other areas have been - rarely for our centre - friendly and sociable, and rarely for our centre, actually reclaimed by people like yourself; with good morals, attitudes, and sense of responsiblilty.

Kiwi

To quote your post - "it (staffie) hit the roof screaming and stressing ........ so you see there was nothing nervous about this dog"  !!!***???

I'd say there was an awful lot nervous about this dog.  A dog who behaves in such a manner is not calm and relaxed it is stressed out of its skull by the circumstances it is in.  Nervousness does not just display itself in timidity ask any owner/handler of a nervously aggressive GSD or BC (or any other breed displaying aggression out of nerves for that matter).

Sorry,

I have to say i did skim read this thread, which i shouldnt have done, but there you go, i did.

Still, i dont think in the same situation i would have reacted the same way.. sorry, i just wouldnt have.

If you already knew this dog to be aggressive, then why was he ever kennelled next to another, especially in kennelling that provided the oportunity to grab the neighbouring dogs leg!

Im glad to hear that the incident has never been repeated.

Em (btw, i am female)

I have found thatStaffies and Boxers have a very full on way when greeting other dogs. Many dogs cannot cope with this approach, and both breeds make strange vocalisations.  They then get a neagtive response from other dogs, and on approaching maturity seem to decide that they will get theirs in first.

I meet quite a few absolutely charming staffs, whose owners have taken the trouble o socialise them well and ensure that they are gentle with other dogs, so that there is no9 chance of unpleasnatness.  I do find that they are not dogs to let things go if another starts.

Any Staff pup owners that I meet I encourage the owners to socialise them as much as possible with other dogs in a controlled way so that all their interactions are positive to offset any less positive ones.  I must say I am wary of any of the bull breeds when walking, as have foiund that they are one of the few breeds where the bit ches are prone to fighting too (I only own bitches so have very little worry with other dogs taking a dislike to mine, and ine are very much live and let live, or lets make freinds).

I also sadly see the steryotype owner who has a big studded coallr on their dog which is way too large, and the dog  can easily slip out of having a go at any passing dog while standing with his mates on a street corner, very proud of his macho dog.

One of my cavaliers is crazy for Staffies of any make or shape, he fell in love with a staffie cross that came to our club that hated all other dogs, but loved him & by playing with him, she has got over her lack of socialization as a young puppy

Having said that We had the "misfortune"to be at a Championship show in the wet weather accommodation with the staffies, a lot of the handlers instead of keeping their dogs away until they were in the next class were stood around & in the cavalier dog ring, as these were male staffies you can imagine what happened several started to growl, snarl & mouth off at each other & unfortunately the cavaliers got in the way. The cavaliers were only in the puppy classes & most were very distressed by these dogs being allowed to misbehave. our ring steward & judge both had"words"with the handlers & I'm sorry to say got a mouth full of abuse back. In the end the officially of the show had to remove the handlers from the ringside, too late for my youngest who is now terrified of staffies he doesn't know. Had it been the one who likes staffies it wouldn't have been so bad. Sadly these handlers  were not in the minority at this show.

It's not the dogs that are at fault but the bl**dy stupid handlers/owners

Do any of you know what the brass items on the collar represent before you say that the collars are big studded collars? Finding a collar for a staffie is not easy as if it is too tight then the dog ends up choking itself and too loose and they can get slip loose agreed. However none of the 'proper' Staffie owners we have the pleasure to know use a harness or an over elaborate collar to walk their dog in and what does the fact that people live on a council estate have to do with anything with wanting a macho dog? Think the choice of dog relates more to size and space than image and even then we have a 100ft garden so could have nearly any dog we wanted but we chose a Staffie and wouldn't swap her for anything. The breed standard says 'traditionally of indomitable courage and tenacity. Highly intelligent and affectionate especially with children' so I think the person who said I was wrong about the kennel club saying only two dogs have statements like this in their breed standard (the other being the Retriever Cheapsake Bay, some of us are not neanderthals who learn nothing else apart from picking our noses and shouting abuse at people whilst clubbing our other halves and telling our dogs to fight!) will find they are wrong.

Hi Suzieque
"I'd say there was an awful lot nervous about this dog.  A dog who behaves in such a manner is not calm and relaxed it is stressed out of its skull by the circumstances it is in.  Nervousness does not just display itself in timidity ask any owner/handler of a nervously aggressive GSD or BC (or any other breed displaying aggression out of nerves for that matter)." 
Totally agree with your fine words, and a nicely composed qoute that i will keep and use for the applicants of the types of dogs you mention.
My original comment was replying to THEEMK whom I thought WAS applying the word nervous in the "display of timidity sense" to the dog I mentioned - I apologise if he wasnt. All the dogs barking just after dinnertime and on kennels opening-time were obviously the trigger, but he wasnt subdued, and other dogs were the object of his aggression.
You will be pleased to hear that all our Dedicated Dog Team are all qualified in kennel stress and its different signs and manifestations - I've been on a TTouch course with Sarah Fisher at Battersea, amongst other things, so i have no quabble with your thinking that "offensive aggression" is quite commonly based in fear, stress, defence, and nervousness.
We have also rehab'd many of those classic lead aggressive nervous energy GSD's/BC's you mentioned.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your dog behaviourist business. 

Hello again Luixansstaffs (excuse  spelling) I was just saying that Kennel Club standards and policies dont really have much relevance to Rescue Centres (apart from some of the breed only rescue societies).
We have of our governance through the Association Of Dogs and Cats Home (ABDCH) - of which I think the kennels club did decide to join also? - so this is where tend to take our cues and influence from - other rescues, such as Battersea, Dogs Trust, Blue Cross. I bow to your knowledge re Kennel Club breed standards, I didnt dispute YOUR accurate reporting of the standards, i just said that their would be many people that would not agree with the Kennel Clubs standard that only 2 breeds can be officially listed as child-friendly dogs - sorry if that is worded wrong? 

They're symbolic of the county of Staffordshire.  Knots in particular are very, very proudly displayed in the area.  I believe the armed forces wear the Staffordshire knot on their uniforms.  It's like thistle = Scotland etc.

My sister in law has a staffie x EBT and he is a lovely dog, very friendly, loves visitors and adores other dogs. My two (whippets) are definately not in any danger when playing with him as they are in charge and he does what they say lol

Well I have to butt in here. Staffords are wonderful dogs in the right hands the same as Staffords X's and all othe breeds, right owner right dog brilliant :) I happen to own a Staff who is well bred - lots of thought went into her before she was even here. The fact that she is WELL BRED means she was raised correctly and with LOVE I carried this on when I got her at 7 weeks, she is now 16 months. She was taken many places and saw lots of people before her jabs and continued after and I am pleased to say although she has been "attacked" by two dogs which weren't Staffs. She is still "brilliant" around other dogs even snappy ones she just comes back and looks at me as if to say "he growled - tell him No" 
   She is I agree full on in everything she does, from saying Hello to digging up my plants :) but she's a Stafford I expect it  and more than that I LOVE IT :D
    The thing is Staffords have a reputation and regardless of what we say here they always will have.
My aim is to improve peoples opinion of Staffords, mine is allowed off lead and her recall is good - but other people don't seem to have the same contorl over there dogs :( and Sal has been harrassed by other dogs as she had been in a "down."
    And I agree with whoever said; "Look at the owners first not the dogs," I agree totally. I keep my eye out for nervous dogs or owners and always put Sal on the lead then but happy to let her say "hello" if the owners wish it.
    When I walk my Stafford she wears a 3/4 leather studded bitch show collar, because it is strong adaptable and looks nice :) She has a matching leather lead with studs 1/8 way up. Leather has to be worn to be made supple and I have faith in the strength of them. Not because Sal is a "steamroller" in fact she walks to heel off lead perfectly but because she is a strong dog and I want a lead that will not snap/tear when I walk her. But when I walk my SBT I do so for fitness (both of us) and enjoyment I am not out to ruin someones day and would dread to think I might by just walking a Stafford.

I am a STAFFORD owner and proud of it Karen

            

My male staffie is very dog friendly and can be trusted in any situation hence the reason why we have applied for him to become a PAT (Pets As Therapy) dog.  My bitch on the other hand cannot be trusted off lead at the moment as she is very stubborn about recall but in time we hope to have this conquered and then apply for her to become a PAT dog. 

Where I live, South Wales, I must agree that the majority of staffie owners do fit the "macho" stereotype and live on the rough estates.  It does seem to be the dog at the moment to have to improve "street cred" which is very sad :(

No I didn't have staffies to improve my street cred I just absolutely LOVE staffords and they are absolutely wonderful with my 2 kiddies.  When one of my kiddies is upset and you are giving them a hug you can guarantee that not far behind you will be my Jas and he will nudge and push his way in up under your arm to see if everything is okay.

I cannot fault their behaviour towards my children, neighbours and most dogs they meet.  The only ones they are a little weary of are the yappy dogs who start first.

Kiwi
<<<< it is most common that the staffie owners dont take responsibilty for their dogs behaviour traits>>>>

I think that you could perhaps have phrased this better ? :rolleyes:
Do you not mean SOME so called owners ???? I know lots of decent , caring and resonsible owners of Staffords and yes, I also know idiots I wouldnt leave in charge of a toy dog never mind a real dog :(

And the studded collars worn by the Stafford symbolise the Staffordshire Rose and knot :)

To right, Lel, and a lot of these idiots end up gracing centres like mine, with stories telling us "its not their fault",etc, etc.
Fair play, could have laboured the Rescue Centre employee point a bit better. It seems that most posters are either pet dog owners or trainers, and havent had my persepective. Archers original point bemoaning the staffie owners desire not to take responsibilty for his dogs' actions and its outcomes is where my post sprang from - the "its not my responsibilty/place to interfere (ie, train and manage, AT ALL) in his nature" arguement has only been made by the Staffie owners of a certain 'macho ignorant mentality' WHO HAVE CONNECTED TO OUR RESCUE.
This has shown to be a 'thought process' unique to them, whereas we get equal idiocy form other breed owners and social cultures, but these are whereby they DO agree with intervention, but do some alarmingly stupid things with their dogs - I could name a further list of "specific psychologys" to specific types of people with types of dogs (including my own pet breed). Amongst my collegues I only have to say "so and so woman or man" in short cut and code, and everyone knows instanly what the whole story would be for the last several months that resulted in the dog ending up in our centre.
The Staffie owners on this board obviously dont belong to the catergory I mentioned - otherwise I would have to say my collegues who owns Staffies are bad too - I apologise if they thought they were.
I understand people's outrage, but if I had to choose between an outrage at someone commenting about my preferred breed/ownership, and an outrage at the things I see/hear everyday, I know which Id pick.
Most Pet Dog Owners field of experience is usually just other Pet Dog Owners enjoying their dogs with little drama or risk - most Pet Dog Trainers I have spoken to believe most Pet Dog Owners are generally responsible, sensible, and educated - they must be, as they have bought their dogs along to classes.
But what of the swathes of owners not attending classes or finding out the right thing to do?
When I hear that old chestnut, "The British Are a Nation of Dog Lovers" - I say, its not quite that simple.  I can gladly report that the incidence of my rescue receiving physically neglected animals is very negligible, but the incidence of us receiving mentally and emotionally abused dogs is very high indeed - and this is a relativley recent phenenomon, getting worse each year, as has beeen noted in the end of year reports of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC).
Thank you, Kiwi

We seem to be interlocking quite a lot of points in this thread - agression in staffys,irresponsible owners , and rescue/rehoming issues

I for one would also disagree with the Nation of Dog Lovers point of view. I have no doubt there are thousands of well loved and well behaved dogs owned by loving, caring , responsible owners ( look at the majority of posters on CD for example) - but you only have to look at the amount of Rescue centres there are throughout the country - theres thousands!! :(
And are any of them ever empty at times and sat twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do ? Ever ?? You bet your life there's never that situation . And for every dog rehomed theres another to step into its place :(
Some reasons for rehoming are genuine and owners will break their hearts at having to rehome their dog/cat but for some others - they really couldnt give a flying monkey what happens to their animal and this is where we need to have an education process in place . To teach children from a young age about the responsibility of caring for an animal so that hopefully when they grow into adults they will know what having a pet entails . But then again- some people cant even care for themselves or others so why should we expect them to care for an animal

THe thing that has made me laugh reading all the repsones from most non-staffie owners is that they say staffies are aggresive and alot of them are unsocialised, but then they turn around and say if they see a staffie in the park they worry what it will do to their dog? How can a dog socialise if you pull your dog away form it all the time. Our bitch ended up in the river near us today as she decided that a labrador in the park would be her new best friend but the owner of the lab just laughed and let them get on with it. Then when leaving the park she ran around for ten minutes with a rottie and neither one of them got aggresive in fact we had to seperate them as they wouldn't leave each other alone through playing. Anyone see a link here between letting other breeds near your dog from a young age???????

So true
Gus isnt bothered about any breeds of dog - he is happy to play with any, small or large.
Think I'm the one that worries incase THEY turn on Him :rolleyes: