Hi guys,

I recently come back from a show where during a class, the judge made evryone wait until a dog in the other ring entered, to insult to injury this dog was placed 1st and there was an outcry.

My thoughts are that (and I apolgise in advance if I offend anyone) some judging standards have taken a serious nose dive.  I know to a point there has always been certaian favouritisms but to make a whole class wait for an extra 5 minutes, whilst your stood in the ring with dogs getting impatient, just for that dog to be placed first is really wrong.  I also noticed one judge not even checking the bite on Dobermanns.  Another Dobie I saw had either no, or very, very little Scrotums.  How did it get to Crufts.  It just seems to me that now more than ever it's not what the standard of the dog is but who is handling it and who the judge is.  In my eyes you should be judging  dogs as close to perfection of their breed standard.  My views may seem a little controversial and I don't mean to offend any Judges or handlers reading this but I stick to my views.  Anybody have similar views?  Or has anyone been involved in incidents the same as mine.

Arnie

Hi Arnie

If someone has paid to enter a class then I feel they should really have the opportunity to show their dog, although there should be more mobility between the rings so that exhibitors don't have to wait too long.  (You could have used it as an opportunity to practice your stays :)  )

All dogs have different sized sacs.  My lad for instance is very neat but another one I bred was very dangly (and looked horrible).  Providing the sacs contain two then the size is fairly irrevelant - especially as neutered dogs can be shown.

Bites/teeth are important in Dobes and should be examined - perhaps the judge was scared to open the dog's mouths?

I don't think the judge should have waited but started judging. If the dog hadn't entered the ring by the time the last dog had been judged then tough but I've had to run to a ring a pop onto the end because you may be a long way from your ring in some cases.

Jesse

Well Last year I went to an Open show & my four dogs won their classes

The judge never spoke to me other than ask me how old etc which is correct, however with three of the other exhibitors he got chatting & the conversations went like this(this was in Junior)

"Hello & how old is this one Fred" exhibitor replied using judges first name"7 months from our Xmas litter, got a tri but didn't keep it George"
"Pretty isn't he, why didn't you keep the tri"
"Mismarked just like it's mother"
"Shame as there aren't a lot of Tris around at the moment, Ok lets see your new champ move"
Exhibitor then tried to move dog but it refused & laid down, judge picked up dog & spoke to it & told Exhibitor to try again, dog still didn't move"Oh what a shame Stand First anyway"

At this point judge came back to me & told me to move my dog again, gave a long sigh & put my dog up first. Telling me"When the second dog learns how to move it will get made up"
I made no comment

When all the classes were done we went in for BOB with all 4 dogs & diff handlers except one for mine. & the other exhbitor & two of his other dogs(from same litter as the one that would not move)which had been 1st & second in Puppy

Neither of the other exhibitors' puppies moved correctly as they both kept sitting down spinning around & not standing

The judge gave BOB to the puppy winner & Res BOB to the second in puppy

After judging the judge came across to me & tried to engage me in conversation
"You are local & bred them yourself I can see that, you should ask Fred to give you some tips on breeding"
"Er yes to local, but I only have dogs these are all XXXXXX(breeders affix) dogs"
"Oh shame her husband is so ill isn't it"
"Ill ??? I just spoken to him & he's at another show waiting for BIS with my young dog's brother"
"Oh well nice to meet you"
The judge then went back to his BOB owners & they all went to the bar

Oh yes &  in the write up described one of my dogs as "up to size & needing to lose weight" This is a 15 lb Cavalier(breed standard 12 to 18 lbs)who looks like a puppy when compared to the BOB which was at least twice as big as him.!!!!!!!!

Oh I forgot to add the judges dogs were bred by the other exhibitor

& this year the same show has another friend of the other exhibitor judging. Sad isn't it when the only way this other exhibitor can win is to get his friends to judge(exhibitor has just been passed to give CC's too). I'll go & enter my boys as it is 15 minutes away from where I live just for a laugh.

Hi Arnold, It is normal practice to wait for an exhibit being shown in another ring, if you tell the steward you are in 2 rings at once they will tell the judge who will normally wait for the exhibit to arrive in their ring. This was just a case of the judge following normal practice and good manners. Guess if it had been you and the judge had gone ahead without waiting you would be complaining about that, the time will come when it will be your exhibit so it is best if you do not think of it as cheating.

we went to a companion show at the weekend and a champion dog took all the classes it could, now some people at the show where disgusted this lady had the nerve as they say just to enter a companion show with a champ dog
myself could not be bothered to argue as we had a brilliant day out doing lots of daft things with our dog,
another instance was a lady at an open show was busy chatting with friends when  all unbeaten dogs where called into the ring and she turned to the steward and said i will be a min just talking and the  steward held up the class,and yes the dog did win when it came into the ring 5 mins later ,
i do know of classes being held up when junior handlers have been showing in another ring and you see them racing from one end of the hall to the other,i don't really mind being held up by another competitor,but if you already know they are going to get the place i guess that is different.
Carol

Dogs with CC's or RCC's are not eligible for entering companion shows so if she did she is in breach of KC regs. Unless they have changed the rules now!

Jesse

CC winners didn't used to be eligible at Exemption Shows.  Have the regs changed for Companion Shows???

I didn't think you could enter a CC winner at a companion show.

you cant :)

I always enter my Champion bitch at companion shows, but only in the fun classes, as of course they are not allowed in the Pedigree ones.  She never gets anything as usually the mjudges ay to me, well she is so obviously a good dog and these classes are for the pets.  But the good cause still gets some money, and we have fun.

i did not know this rule and i have just read what you said, the dog was entered in any variety  veteran and also adult pastoral so that is why people were tutting and making it known that it was not right,
we are new to showing only 6months really going to shows to participate,and we only went to this one to help the rescue cause it was for and to have a laugh with friends and there dogs, i thought people around the ring were just being petty that this dog won, now i know the real reason.
Carol
on the upside daughter won best junior handler.

I would be interested to know if all these people who "tut tutted" and "were making it known that it was not right" were actually a) abosulutely sure of their facts and b) the rules and c) if they were why did they not approach the judge/steward or organiser rather than just grumbling amongst themselves?

Hi again Arnold, thought I would just add that scrotums are not usually removed just testes, and there is no reason why a dog without testes should not be at Crufts, it could well be a Champion that has been castrated in his old age. Not wishing to be over critical of you but if you want to learn more about dogs and your own breed in particular then take a close look at the winning dogs as well as picking fault in those you don't like and the judges who may make mistakes but will at least have given a close look hundreds of dogs no doubt over a large number of years.

Were the dogs that didn't have their bites checked 'seen dogs' - ie had they been entered in previous classes? If so, the judge would have no need to go over them again ... ;)

Thanks for you replies guys,

In reply to Kerioak, this dogs scrotums were ni-on non existent.  I'ver been around and shown Dobe's for 20 years this dog should not have been in the ring.  The breed standard clearly states that "Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum".   You ar right in the fact that bites are important in Dobe'd so if this is important and the judge was too scared to look, he should not have been judging the class.  Question  if you went to Crufts this year did you see the male judge (who's name escapes me now) check any mouths, the answer is NO!

The person who held up our class was talking to the other judge and I made it known I was not happy, just a rye look from the judge and glare from the other exhibitor.

Arnie

Hi Arnie,
It seems to me (though I could be wrong) that you are getting your terminology a bit wrong. A dog only has one scrotum, which should contain two testicles. However it is permissible under KC rules to show spayed bitches and castrated dogs, so naturally in this case the scrotum (which is not removed at castration) would be empty, and shrink in size to almost nothing. Maybe the dog qualified before he was castrated?

That is all to true JG, there are loads of dogs and bitches that are in Veteran and other classes that have been spayed or castrated after being awarded their championship or studbook numbers. Can't see the point in this entire nit picking thing, either you enjoy showing or you don't. If you see something that is against the rules then you make a complaint but to do that you have to be sure of what the rules are.

Hi Arnie, why were you so upset having to wait for a exhibitor to join your class, what was the hurry you can use the time to settle the dog and make sure when the judge does look at your exhibit it is showing the best it can. It is usual for a judge to want to speak to the handler of a winning dog, it has happened to all of us and you can't walk away, it would be churlish not to reply you just escape as quick as you can.

Thank you for your replies again,

I understand the ruling Jeangenie and now you point out the obvious, it is even more obvious, you are seemingly right.  Off the soap box Arnie!!  My original gripe though,before I got too carried away was the class being held up and I still believe it was wrong.

In reply to you Jackie, the class was held up for over 5 minutes.  I understand the point about being polite and talking to the judge, yes! and we all do it.  I by no means would believe it to be churlish as you put it by carrying on to your next class and maybe speaking to the judge later.  I do think it would be churlish to hold up a whole class why they chit-chat.  This could have be done later.  In the time of there little tate-ar-tate most dogs in the ring were getting anxious.  This is wrong as may also spoil you dogs performance in the ring.

Arnie 

How do you know it was chit-chat, you think it was because you got annoyed your judge could have answered a call of nature and been even longer, so it should not upset your dog. In the BIS or Group ring you can sometimes (in fact often) wait for 10 minutes if an exhibit is missing and the handler has not let the secretary know they are going home.

Remember waiting a good long while for an exhibit to return from the Puppy stakes ring where they had been called to return as the winning dog to compete as the M.P. dog winner against the puppy winner, thought that was a bit off as our judge knew that the missing dog had had a big win, but we all waited more to hear if the exhibit had won than to complete the class. 

Open shows need all the support they can get and so if people are willing to enter more than one class then it is only right that everything is done to ensure these people can partake in the classes they have entered.
It is harder to predict when a class will be on at an open show since there are more breeds scheduled for each ring and the only start times given are for the start of judging.
Archer

I've been on the other side of this at a companionship show.  I was told by a number of exhibitors that a woman was going around telling everyone that I had a Spanish champion and that I wasn't allowed to enter the show.  Seeing as my dog left Spain before she was 12 months old there is no way that she could be a Spanish Champion, I've been told since that she has said this at a number of shows where I've been too, no wonder one of the judges said to me that he wasn't putting me up because I'd won so much!!!!

The breed can't even go in for best in show or anything here in England so it's annoying when I can't even get anywhere at a companionship show either with her because of people not getting their facts straight.

Arnie, as has already been stated, waiting for a dog that is being judged in another ring is normal show ring etiquette. It sounds to me that you particularly resent the fact that the 'late' dog won.You have been showing a long time, so it's surpising that you haven't come across this before now.

I have certainly had a judge wait for me to finish in another ring, and have seen it happen to others on several occasions.
Dawn R.

People can get in a tizz over all sorts of imagined "unfairnesses:".  A few years ago I was handed an entry form for an Exemption show and begged to enter (it was in aid of a very good cause), I excused myself on the basis that the only dogs I had at home who could show at the time were either imported Champions or had won CCs/RCCs, this was before you could enter them in the fun classes.  Howeve ras a last thing I decided to do my bit for the charity and take a 6 month old puppy who was being run on for a friend as a potential brood bitch.  She was trained to walk on a lead but certainly not ring trained!  So I packed the car, picked up the pup and got to the show.  Entered all the classes possible (which was Puppy and loads of fun classes) and had a great day!  Of course she didnt get placed in the show class, but did get a couple of 4th & 5th places in things like prettiest bitch etc etc.  Got home to the phone ringing red hot - my friend had been innundated with calls from people wanting to know what I thought I was doing, influencing judges at a show like that - the influencing being that I had put my usual show kit up, including a Pedigree Chum blanket to sit on, by Chum show bag by the table, and chum towel on my table!  As the fun class judge was some local dignatory who had probably never heard of a BoB award let alone anything else to do with dog showing  I was dumbfounded!  Apparently some of teh complainers were also overjoyed that my attempt at influence had been so unsuccesful.  Still cant fathom what thrill I was supposed to want to get out of unfairly winning at an Exemption show of all things!  Some people just have very small minds;)
bye
Gwen

We have been left waiting in the ring before , for 20 mins thinking that the person we was waiting for was in another ring, turns out they was having there lunch and when they strolled in the ring and went BOB RBOB and BP , well you can imagine the reaction , and yes we did put our money down and complain, specially as it was all first name terms and hows your wife etc.
I think more people should put their money down rather than just mumble to their friends.
You go round any breed ring now adays and all you hear is she won this because of who she is and he won that bla bla bla, it's the same in everybreed i should think.
Unless people actually do something it will stay the same

Peanuts

Ah, but often the "He " and "she" who win just becasue of who they are are actually winning consistently becasue they have better dogs consistently!  Unfortunatley, a lot of people who are not winning as much find it easier to blame it on "face" judging than the fact that their own dogs just dont measure up to the "faces" competition! Of course some bad judging does take place, but a lot of the grumbling is just sour grapes. 
bye
Gwen

Arnold, I was one of those awful people who had the ring held up for them at Crufts this year!!!!:D:
Our judging was scheduled at 1pm so at 12.30 I decided a quick visit to the loo then haul all  the hounds to the ringside to watch judging. After a 1/4 wait for the loo I sauntered back to the bench, only to find my friend in state of panic because they had decided to start judging 20 minutes early & my class was just completing!!! A mad panic run to the ring & a very annoyed sleeping hound who wasnt ready to show. I am sure the people we beat were annoyed, but its down to which hound (or dog) is best...not circumstances as to why one is late in the ring.

Hi all,

First of all I have been showing for 20 years, I have experience in showing.  I have had 5 champions in my breed.  Please do not insult my intelligence,  YOU had to be there to see it.  I did put my money where my mouth was and to no success.  I try not to mumble but that day was out and out flippancy of the rules and should not have happend.  The chit-chat I was referring to was a chit-chat.  The handler and judge were not even talking about the dog she had.  It was about her friends and knowing her dogs knowing is dogs. "Thats was my moan as you put it".  I've been showing long enough to know proper ring courtesy when I see it and this was flagrant disrespect for the other handlers and dogs.  I was explaining to the forum exactly what I saw.  The truth is there is a lot a favouritism out there and IT' S WRONG.  You all very quickly jumped on the bandwagon to presume I'm wrong and the truth is it happended.  I thought this forum discussed and advised, not bombarded with bunkem!

Arnie   

 

Hi Arnie,
As a sensible adult you will realise that there are always two sides to every story, and so it would be foolish not to put other possibilities forward to explain any given scenario. I have probably misread it, but your first post gave me the impression that you were starting out in showing! If that were true, then you may well have been unaware that holding up a class is, under certain circumstances, absolutely the right thing to do.

If you have been showing for 20 years you must have seen it all before and known that castrated dogs would be allowed at Crufts, also that exhibits will be waited for, no matter if you think the reason is valid or not, so what was the point of your post? Sorry if I assumed you were a showing novice but your complaint is typical of a newcomer the rest of us have learned to take the rough with the smooth.

Hi Arnie, I'm addressing the issue you raise conserning favouritism. I think we have all come away from a show at one time or other with the feeling that we've been hard done by. Judges fall into three categories, good ones, bad ones and those that are trying to do there best, but you will have heard the saying you can't please all of the people all of the time. I genuinely think that most judges are trying to do a good job.

Exhibitors too can be categorised, those who dedicate their lives to a breed, exhibit extensively, and breed regularly enough to be very experienced. These people probably win quite alot, they have made it there job. I consider myself an 'also ran'. It's the likes of me that keep dog shows going. I spend probably more than I can afford travelling the country with little or no hope of winning, but a piece of any coloured card is a prize to me. My dogs are family pets that get a day out at a dog show. However when I do win, it's fantastic to know that the dog did it on merit as the judge saw it. I have no doubt that half of the ringside is grumbling on these occasions.

I love showing, I've been doing it for 33 years, I get alot of pleasure from my hobby, but if it caused me any misery then I would stop and find something else to spend my money on.

P.S. Iv'e never won anything worth a damn, and I probably never will because I've never moved a dog on to a 'nice pet home' either.
Dawn R.

Thank's again guy for being so candid.

In reply to jeangenie I believe it may have been you who said I had my terminology wrong (that was correct) I did and I concurred with you.

In reply to Jackie you don't have to apologise, no of us are infallable and we all make mistakes.  As I did earlier.

I don't mind constructive criticism at all but I did feel a bit hemmed in almost like I was the witch oc the local witch hunt.  Thank you to dawn aswell everything you have said is true I myself do exactly the same.  You are all aware that is can/does & will happen, I may have got a bee in my bonnet and I was not the only one to complain.  Another of my points was the Judge not checking the dogs bites, I did answer you Jeangenie but saw no reply.  Can you explain that one.  No dog I saw on that day, by that judge had their bites checked. 

P.S If I offended anyone I apologise and again we all make mistakes.  Please do not get me wrong I love my dogs and I love my shows but the event mentioned earlier on my post did upset me!  I am a big man with broad shoulders and I can take it.

Arnie  

 
 

Sorry I didn't reply about the bites being checked, but I have no idea from your posts how much of the judging you watched. If you watched only the challenge for the CC then no, none of the dogs would have their bites checked, because that would have been done in the previous classes. I also have shown under judges who, for health reasons, will not themselves check a dog's bite but ask the exhibitor to show it. As you say, I wasn't there so can only go on your report.
:)

Thank you jeangenie :-) :-)

Arnie

Arnie,
Just for interest.  I was talking to a boxer couple last night who went to an open show recently.  They had just entered their class and were preparing their dog when the steward told them them there would be a 15 minute wait as they were waiting for someone to arrive.  The steward asked the judge if they knew who it was and she told them it was Mrs xxxxxx who was just coming down the M1.  When Mrs xxxx finally arrived she was awarded best puppy.   Understandably there was a lot of bad feeling about this.  

Hi Sarahl, your story is not quite the same thing as waiting for an exhibitor who is busy in another ring. I too would think that waiting for a particular exhibitor, who hasn't given themselves enough time to even arrive at the show, would be objectionable. Of course if there had been an accident on the motorway, meaning that many exhibitors were due to arrive late, I would be happy for judging to be delayed for half an hour, or an hour.
Dawn R.

Hi Dawn,
No, I realise that if someone is in another ring, that's a different story and I can't see a problem with that, nor if there's been an accident.  But this judge was waiting for one particular person.  There are often non-attendees in a class and surely it's unusual for a class to be held up for just one exhibitor - after all, it's your responsibility to get to the show on time.

Yes Sarahl, I was agreeing with you. I was also pointing out the difference between what you said, and the original complaint.
Dawn R.