Ive been thinking of getting another great dane as a companion to my blue bitch. I have been to see a litter but by the time I got there the harlequin puppies were allready all booked! :-(  It was a harlequin I had my heart set on. the breeder had several puppies left and they were gorgeous.:-) she said they were "mismarks" and "merles" which meant they are no good for showing or breeding. I fell in love with a bitch puppy. she is blue with white and black patches and blue eyes. I dont mind she is no good for showing as I never go to dog shows and just wanted a pet. the lady said both parents are KC reg but she only registered the "correctly" marked puppies with the KC and the other ones are registered with the DLRC, I have never heard of them so I asked her to explain she said it is a company who supply pedigrees for dogs which are just to be pets and are no good for showing or breeding. has anyone heard of this?

I have left a deposit with the lady as the puppies are not ready to go for another 2 weeks, but something is nagging at me, I hope someone who knows a bit more about it can set my mind at ease? Why are the "mismarked" puppies so badly regarded? the breeder told me some bad breeders drown them at birth! I was horrified! :-( why would anyone do this? I wanted a harlequin as I'd only really heard of them, but when I saw the mismarked/merle pups, I actually thought they were nicer and I cant understand why they are no good in some people's eyes and why there is such a huge difference in price? the breeder is selling the harlequins for £1000, my puppy will only cost £400, why is this? I am not sure why but I keep getting this feeling there is a con somewhere? am I just being paraniod? do mismarks/merles have health problems or is there something the breeder is not telling me? she seems very nice and her dogs are gorgeous! please advise? I will be taking my puppy despite this feeling as she is lovely and Im worried what will happen to her if I dont :-(, I'd just like to know more about this as I didnt realise it was so complicated. whats in a colour anyway? surely no good dog can be a bad colour?

There should not be merle to merle matings as this can cause problems.
just because they are mismarked & merles does not mean they are unhealthy,but make sure the parents have had all the relevant health checks.
in some breeds merles can have some hearing problems so you may want to be aware of this & see if your girl responds to sounds when you are next visiting.
personally i cant see why the breeder would bother with the dlcr,as it means nothing, but AT least she has not misled you over their registration .
good look with your puppy, thought of any names yet??

in my breed, border collies, mismarks were often used for agility & obedience  as they couldnt be shown,& alot of people in obedience now prefer the "mismarked" type of collie.

There will be no difference health wise, and harl's do tend to be around that price. I have a fawn who was alot less but my girls breeder has had Harls going for the same price as your breeder.
I'm unsure but as i understand it mismarked harls can be registered with the KC but not allowed to be shown.
The DLRC isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I suppose in one way you are lucky as some breeders would advertise these as 'rare' and attempt to gain more money.

I have a friend who breeds harlequin Great danes & the merles are actually the original colour of danes from years ago

The Merles she has had appear in her litters all have brown eyes & are not any less heathy than the KC standard colours. They should all be registered with the KC as Harlequin mismarks & registering them with the DLRC is just a way of hiding the mismarks from the show world yet being able to sell them as "registered".  They can be blanket merles(with little or no white)or Merle harlequin marked(blue & black in patches on the white)

They cost less because they are non standard colours & therefore not wanted by the show goers &are much  more common tha harlequins(so they can't be sold as"rare")

She had a lovely Blue Merle harlequin who was her foundation bitch after she lost the last of her old lines. She lived well into her teens & simply died of old age. She produced the most beautiful harlequins for her.Both Blue & Black harlequins are acceptable in the UK for showing,.

I would be suspicious that this breeder uses the DLRC for non standard colours, as it would make me think she had something to hide from he KC or the show/breeding world

I think you'll find that people who register anything with the DLRC are not as reputable as you would like. However, if you are satisfied that the parents of your puppy have been health tested and the puppies are reared satisfactorily thenwho they are registered with would be irrelevant. Personally, however, I would never buy any puppy that wasn't registered with the KC unless I was purchasing a cross bred one!

Jesse

Harlies in general can suffer more health problems than other colours - they are also known to be a bit "madder". Feel free to email me for further info :) [email carla@hodgkins.com]email[/email]

Years ago you could not buy a merle Dane - they were put into a bucket!! 
I would be very wary of any breeder who uses DLRC!!!!  There is no reason why a merle Dane can't be registered with the Kennel Club and the registration endorsed "Progeny not for registration".
Please don't buy a puppy just because you're worried about what will happen to it - that really isn't the right reason.  If you've had your heart set on a harli, then put yourself on the waiting list of a reputable breeder.

at least this breeder has been up front about the DLCR though, unlike the others we have heard about on here. maybe it was just because it was abit cheaper to do it this way??

Probably but she could just not have registered them at all

They sell well as pets as they can be very attractive, but if they are not registered they would be less saleable.

It also hides the number of puppies a bitch produces which for GD can be well into the teens. Meggie had 16 in one of her two litters they did not all survive, I think she ended up with 12 & their feeding had to e supplemented. but £400 is very cheap for a Dane puppy if reared correctly for 8 weeks, they tend to start weaning as soon as their eyes open & can go through a 15 kg of puppy food in days as well as the chicken, eggs  etc they are fed. They are not a cheap breed to rear well.

My friend I know makes no difference between the colors of puppies for price as the colour has no effect on health.

I like the harlequin & merles better than all the other colours as they are all differnt & usually the biggest of the danes too. The blues/blacks tend to have the best temperament as a rule, the partis are the scatterbrains.& some fawn & brindles are very iffy temperaments.

Much as I love them after meeting my frineds i could never have one as a pet

I disagree - I know of lots of harlies that have had skin problems and other issues.

The most important thing about buying a dane is to buy from HIP SCORED PARENTS :) Breed average is 13.

Oddly enough the only ones Baa had problems with was her Black bitch & the fawns & brindles Her Harlies which she only  has now(her greatest love is blue but cannot fond a really good one in the UK that she likes). All her harlies have lived into their teens which for any giant breed is usual, maybe it's because they are totally indulged by her & kept indoors in ideal conditions

Skin problems could be linked to bloodlines of course

She is looking for a really good blue bitch been for the past 4 years since the last of her breeding passed away. She is thinking of looking abroad as she's seen some nice ones in Europe all she needs now is the money;)

She's only had Danes for the past 25 years or so & started with fawns & brindles, but had a few bad health problems over the years with them & fell in love with blues about 20 years ago

Blues are my favourites... I would definitely like a nice blue bitch at some point. Willis is fantastic and is a real show stopper when out on a walk. Phoebe (brindle) looks like a tiger so brindle would definitley be my second choice. I love harlies though...and if I saw a really nice one I would be very tempted...

Interesting what you say about them being kept indoors...I have to agree that Danes are definitely people/home loving dogs and I can't see how a dane would be happy in a kennel 24 x 7 like some of the prominant breeders keep them

It is a point in the breeders favour that she is not trying to con you into believing that the mismarked pup is 'rare' and therefore more costly than the standard puppies. However, any registration other than KC is of no more value than lavatory paper, so that can be ignored.

Also it is important that the pup should be BAER tested, because lack of the correct brown eye pigmentation can be indicative of deafness. Merle colouring can indeed be associated with health problems.

Can someone put me straight, if there are miss-marks and Merles within a litter that the breeder says can't be bred from does that mean the rest of the litter should not be, would they not be carrying the same genes, or does it not work that way?

No, not at all, Jackie. Not all the pups in the same litter inherit the same genes, because they are not from a single zygote. They can be likened to 'fraternal' twins (as opposed to identical twins) who are no more alike than any other siblings.
:)

So there would be no chance of a normally marked or coloured sibling producing miss-marked or merle offspring.

Well yes, because certain colours are recessive, and only appear when the zygote doesn't contain a copy of the dominant (masking) gene. But I don't think any breed can afford to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. I did once read, though how true it is I don't know, that the best-marked harlies have one merle parent. If you never bred from any animal that had once produced a 'sub-standard' offspring, what would happen to the gene pool? For example, no boxers with the 'flashy' white markings could be bred from, because they are carrying the white gene ...

Think I'm still with you, so if you bred say one of the miss-marked pups and one of the correct marked to the same sire, what would be the chance of each having miss-marked pups. Would the miss-mark have miss-mark pups and the correct have only correct marked pups? Goodness I am glad in my breed they come any colour you like as long as it's grey.

I would imagine that both are likely to have mismarked pups. The normally coloured/marked may or may not have inherited the recessive gene. The one showing the fault certainly has, so its pups are statistically more likely to show it but there is always the possibility that none of the bitch's eggs are fertilised by sperm that carry the recessive. Unlikely, but theoretically possible.

Consider the human condition of Cystic Fibrosis, a recessive inherited illness. For a child to inherit the condition, both its parents must be carriers. Statistically, if they had four children, one would be completely free of the condition, two would be carriers, and one would be a sufferer.

In dals we have mismarks (patches - maybe 10% of pups) and non-standard colours (fortunately rare) to contend with. If parents that had ever produced a patched pup, and the siblings of that pup, were removed from the gene pool, I think the breed would become extinct in maybe 2 generations.

Think I understand and that brings another question to mind, if as you say the breed would not survive if Miss-marks and incorrect colours were not bred from, the standard is not helping breeder because it is asking the impossible of them. So should the standard be relaxed to allow a wider choice of marking and colours?

In Europe you can show the Bostons(black or blue with white BC type markings)which are classed as non standard here

It's not like some breeds where being a certain colour would make it difficult for them to do the job they were originally bred for like all or mainly white BC's working UK breeds of sheep that cannot be worked by flock guards etc

Some of the merles are really beautiful with lovely dark eyes & expressions I think it's a  pity they are treated as non standard, but until it changes there's not a lot that can be done

Some of the nicest Harlies I have seen come from Merles & a lot of breeders use them for breeding from to get Harlies

My friend doesn't now have any merles as Meggie has passed away, but the Harlies & merles(& a Blue dog)from her & her daughters & sons were/are lovely. When the Blue was born Baa was really excited until she realized he was a dog-which she needed like a whole in the head.

There have been some very lighted marked Harlies that have been made up because under the colour they were a good GD. For me it would be structure first colour second(temp & health before both of course)

No no, I'm not saying that mismarks and non-standards should be bred from! They certainly shouldn't. What I'm saying is that the parents and close relatives of mismarks can still be bred from - but the breeder has to be aware of the faults and try to avoid lines carrying similar faults.

For example, with dalmatians, the only breed I have a reasonable amount of knowledge on, though I wouldn't call myself an expert. Average litter size is 8, though many more is by no means uncommon (I think 17 is the breed record). Most litters of this size will have at least one patched pup. We still have no idea of the nature of heredity of patches. Many years ago patched pups were automatically culled, but not now, because culling didn't reduce their incidence (and with such large litters one has to start somewhere). Even now, when reputable breeders haven't bred from a patched individual for over 60 years, the incidence is the same. I would hazard a guess that every single dalmatian is at most one generation removed from a mismark - there was either one in its own litter or in that of one of its parents.

Likewise the incorrect colours. The recessive gene seems to be carried unseen for very many generations before it re-appears. In 30 years in the breed I personally have never seen a non-standard colour, but I have seen them registered in the Kennel Gazette.

It gets us back to the 'baby and bathwater' situation. To eradicate the problem completely you would not breed if there was the possibility of inheritance of the fault. But that would narrow the gene pool far too much for breed viability. So we do as much homework as we can, then pray.
:)

Mismarks in GD are different from Dalmatians tho

A mismark could be a single tick on the white background which would be  a technical mismark in a GD as Harlies are meant to look as if the patches of colour have been torm out of the white with no ticking. I've seen some that look more like large Dalmatians rather than GD. A tiny patch of merle on an otherwise correctly marked GD would also be a mismark.

The solid merles are rarely bred from but the merle Harlies are an important part in GD as they should if bred right have Brown eyes & less chance of deafness that is more common in Black/white harllies with blue eyes

Sure they are different in detail, but the theory is the same.  The siblings of mismarks are probably okay to breed from, otherwise your gene pool is up the Swanee. (Ticking is a fault in dals too.)

And we are agreed that blue-eyed harlies/merles/mismarks should be BAER tested before sale, because of the likelihood of serious hereditary problems.

As far a I remember you can get merles in any breeding that has them behind the dogs being bred. I don't think they are merle like collies & shelties tho as some apparent harlies have on very close inspection merle markings. Ive seen photographs in the dog press of merles winning as harlies & some Black harlies have blue markings & vica versa.

It must be some think to do with colour inheritance in GD as I said in the beginning the original colour was a merle or mutli colour(I'm talking hundreds of years ago when they were still used as boar hounds)

And because breeders have mixed colours you can get some very strange colours like dobermann marked blues because a fawn had been used in the pedigree more than 5 generations back(they were cute tho)

Hi guys,
          Been reading the harlie/merle debate with interest! From my experience lots of breeders use boston's as brood bitches and less occassionally as stud dogs. The main problem with breeding harlies is that they do not breed true. You can mate two blacks and get harlies in the litter (blues also) or breed two harlies and get blacks so nothing is certain. As long as the puppy is fit and well I am sure it will make a great pet and companion in the way that only a Great dane can. Best of luck

Thank you all, sorry to push the point ;) but I do like things clear. As I say in my breed we only have to worry that the pups are some shade of Grey, there are both white and black varieties but in this country they are only grey. Now you would think that was simple enough wouldn't you, but no we still get those who only like a particular shade of grey, true honest :)

Will now print out you info so I can add it to my Standards book, have now lifted so much vital information from the forum that I have damaged the binding of the book, shameful treatment of a book, books being one of my other obsessions.

WOW!!!! thanks for all the excellent replies!! I have a lot to read through!! I am glad to hear that merles dont have any serious health issues and it seems Im maybe just being a bit paranoid. Im still a bit confused though about a couple of things. firstly what is a "boston" and secondly, if merles are not usually registered and not supposed to be bred from, how do breeders use them to breed harlies? Have I got this right? Im sure someone said that a few breeders use merles to produce harls, how do they do this if the merle is not registered? or can you register them??

Yes you can register merles. Hence they can be bred from but better in the hands of an expert who knows the lines/colours.

A boston is a black with white markings on the face feet and neck. They are looking to bring a standard in to show them in the uk.

There are lots of gorgeous bostons in Europe that do well under their judges but when UK Judges judge them they seem not to do so well probably because the UK people cannot get past the colour

I saw one wonderful multi titled boston bitch that had working qualifications I was so taken by her that after she had been shown the handler came to me & asked me why I had been so interested in her & taken so many photographs(non flash)& videoed her. When he found out I liked her he was relieved as he had heard some nasty comments from other UK people about her from UK people. She had all the dash & dare the standard called for plus movement to die for her cost was so shiny you could almost see your face in it, she stood free & posed so well on her own I was tempted to try to steal her for Baa(she was never up for sale)both her parents were harlequins. now if they could breed them like her over here GD would be the breed to beat in the working group.

I think that sometimes, they're called 'Mantles' as well, (or so it said on Breed all about it!)

Ali :)

Don't worry about about the pup not being KC reg. Some breeders rather than going through the hassel of putting restrictions on the pup will not KC reg. They will then sell the pups at a lower price as a mismark to good pet homes. Yes mismarks can be KC reg but to prevent somone breeding and registering at a later date they don't KC reg. This does not mean they have anything to hide, I have a friend who has done this recently and the mismarks have gone to fab homes.

I have heard of blue merles etc been sold for very high prices as rare colours. So long as the breeder is being honest with you I see no problems here.

As for health checks very few dane people do heath checks, I would ask about the health history of the line if this is the case. There are no requirements by the breed clubs to do health checks it does not mean people are hinding health issues. There were some breeders who started doing hip scoring and then it was said that they must have problems in their lines if they are scoring! You can't win!!!!

Good luck with your pup.