Another thread so that you all can practice your typing:) I have had pups born with problems so bad that they had to be pts straight away. However I have also had very big litters, with a very little one, or a weakling in the bunch. I always work very hard to keep them going, sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I always try. How do you all feel about doing this? Obviously people who cull( another thread for later?) wouldnt bother with the weak ones, but I always feel I did the mating, so I must give them the chance of life.

When we have litters at work the weaker ones are always given special attention, either by bringing the mother out from the others and feeding the weaker ones on there own, or giving them some extra whelpi drink, and if they make it and become older puppies then they get extra food and they are fed seperatly, if a puppy is going to fade away there isnt much that can be done, but we let nature take its course unless of course the pup is in pain, and it is then taken to the vets to be put to sleep, but i have to say most do pull through.

the male in my last litter was born the same weight as the rest but slowly went downhill, when i checked it out he was an inneficient feeder, for all he lokked like he was in there with the rest he was smacking away but not managing to form a vaccum---i bottle fed him and topped him up until he was weaned-at which time he caught up quickly, at one time he was about a good half to a third smaller than his sisters--he looked like a different breed- the person whod booked him shows and i kept telling her she didnt want him--even reading his weight difference out--when she started thinking about a name i told her to call him mouse!!!!i was very upfront about him-hed been booked previously by someone who out of the blue asked if he was going to be a big dog--told them i doubted it very much--if they wanted big theyd best go elsewhere for one----they did, which was fair enough, however the new owner was right, hes grown lovley, a gorgeous pup that everyond admires, --so for me it would depend what the problem was i was having to struggle with, i knew this one would sort itself out once weaned, although i expected a midget!!

Hi dizzy, we had a similar experience a few years ago with a bitch in one of the litters. She was however smaller at birth and almost skeletal, but very vigorous. Until the start of weaning ( about 21/2 weeks in Wolfhounds) she only put on an ounce, although she had extra drinks from mum and was topped up by bottle. We called her Bridget the Midget.Once weaning started she put on weight each day, to such a degree by the time they were ready to go, she was only fractionally smaller than the others. I ran her on until she was 6 months old, in case she had some horrible genetic problem, but she was fine and grew to be a normal size Wolfhound.

Hi Phillippa, I cull and so can't add much to the thread, but thinking of your Bridget the Midget, my Wee Flea, our mutual friends' Titchy Bitch, I suspect that the small but healthy pup tends to become a bit of a favourite:-)

Hi sharon, perhaphs its because we spend extra time with them, and all the worry as well lol

I have had very small puppies from time to time . the last one was so tiny I never thought i could call him a bullmastiff wondered if i could put him in with someones PUG and hope no one would notice I could not see him growing at all he was so small the others looked like giant pups against him . he got very sick and I was sure he was a goner. I fed him capsules of royal jelly, and baby abidex drops and kept him on a heat mat beside me day and night , brought him to mom every hour and she cleaned and fed him [ a wonderful mom]the tough little guy made it , he is 7 mths old now and got bigger than the other pups . So it is really worth the effort and time put in . He has a wonderful home with a young married couple and he is the love of their life. Mari

>> People who cull wouldn't bother with the weak ones.

I know you said this could be another thread but can someone explain what is mean't by this. Am I to think that some breeders either kill or have the weaker puppies pts ?? If so why do they not bother to help the weaker ones ??

Thanks. :-)

Hi clare, some breeders do cull pups from the litters. I personally do not, but in some breeds it is an accepted thing. An example is show greyhounds. They are very hard to home and so often have big litters. Quite often, the males are pts, and only the best marked females are kept. I did not mean to be rude to anyone who does cull by saying that they wouldnt bother with weak pups, perhaphs it wasnt a very good choice of words!! In other breeds such as boxers, white pups are pts, and dallies that are born with patches already showing are often ptsThe point of this thread was really to ask if people had had success stories with little ones and tiny pups and they obviously have.If I have mentioned your breed in this posting, it wasnt a criticism, it was just some of the breeds that I know it happens too, so please dont be offended :)

I know someone in a sighthound breed that breeds only every couple of years when they want their next one, and rears only the number of pups that have been prebooked, as unfortunately they are a breed very hard to find pet homes for, and they tend to have quite large litters. The deed is done by her vet as soon as the whelping is finished!

I couldn't do it myself, but thankfully have never had an enormous litter, though my smallest bitch had a litter of 9 2 1/2 years ago! I do think in a breed where there is little chance of finding enough homes for a large litter it is the responsible thing to do, and the only thing she can do to carry on her line!

my marly is prenant naw i am lukey my husband has a very good job and con spurt me very well i am and well be with my marly all the time. it macks me so mad :( when people say let nacre take its curs. do women stay on ther owne when thay are in labour ON thay dont so my marly well not be. Kath

Hello everyone,
I hate loosing any pup, not matter how tired I get
in the process, of looking after it, I think it is worth it
to keep it alive. If it is going to die it will die.
I had a litter last year with a really tiny pup that did
not have the strength to suckle, I thought he would be
dead by the next morning, so I had my trusty whelpi and
put drops in his mouth every half and hour until I built it
up to hour and half. I find that pups die quickly if they are
cold so always keep a heat lamp on them. Also a pup will
die if taken off its mother so I try to leave it in the whelping
box but keep them in a place in the house that every time you
walk by that you can pick up the smallest and put onto the
dams nipple. In the end the smallest pup, was fit, healthy,
and the most lively, and he over took two other pups in weight.
He now is a huge dog. I think it is worth the effort. At least
if you try then you can be satisfied you done your part.
A breeder friend of mine told me that a breeder she knew had
an exceptional litter of 15 puppies. All appeared healthy but she
thought the dam would never be able to look after them, so she
killed three. The next night three died naturally, so she was left
with nine pups. If she had not killed the first three she may of
had more pups. I thought that was too extreme, as I could
never of done it, I would rather let nature take its own course.
What do you all think?

Killing 3 pups because she thought the litter was too big. What an idiotic person If she thought the dam couldn't cope then she should have been prepared to help rear the litter herself or not have a flipping litter in the first place. That makes me so mad. AND if her breed is known to have big litters which by the sounds of things it does then again she should have thought this all through first. Does this person still breed I wonder ?

My breed can have big litters which is why I will think, think and think again before I even think about having a litter - get my drift ;-)

Good on you nutkin for helping your pups. That's what it's all about, every pup deserves a chance as far as I'm concerned unless it is so ill that there isn't even the tiniest chance it can have a quality life.

Claire B- nice one;) couldn't agree more

Stacey x x x

I would never cull Nutkin . I will always give the pups a chance to make it , and I will help nature along as well . Thats my way and it works for me . I will not slate anyone for doing it though as I maintain they are doing what they think is right . I just wouldent :) mari

Hi nutkin, we had a litter of 15 Wolfhounds, and it was hard work, but worth the effort. I had to try and make it a bit easier for mum so I split the pups into two groups. One group had mum and the other group I bottle fed. Then mum had an hours rest away from the babies. At the next feed I swapped the groups round, so that the bottle fed pups had mum and vice versa, then another hours rest. It was a bit tiring to say the least, but mum and the pups stayed well and happy and all survived. The only one who didnt nearly make it...was me!!!

Thanks for your replys. I am glad that I am not the only
one that will fight for a little life. I hate it if a pup dies,
which is not very often but still I hate it.
I know someone that had his bitch put in pup and he knew
she was in whelp but went out to work. He came home to
find 3 dead pups in the box up one corner and 6 live ones.
He was quite pleased, yet two died that night, as the bitch
crushed them. The only good thing was he did learn from his
lesson and when he had his latest litter he did not move from
her side. But how many people do leave the bitches to just
get on with it? I think the dogs deserve better than to be left,
after all if we did not find a dog to mate them they would not
have the pups would they!!!..

Thats true nutkin
if we did not find them a dog to mate there would be no pups
So when we do, we have a sacred trust to do the very best we can for those pups ,and that means to me giving them a chance to survive, and if they are meant to they will lol mari

my sister who had the 14 rott pups had someone say she should of culled some of the litter- she was horrified, she lost one so between them reared 13 lovley pups, her and both my neices used to go in often armed with bottles and top anything up that looked like it needed help-----it was hard work for them all- but as some have said its so rewarding, ive not lost any viable pups once theyve been born but had 3 huge ones born dead in the last litter, although upsetting you know theres nothing could of been done-but anything thats born here always gets the best shot i can give it, after all i planned the litter, i mated the bitch and therefore its up to me to rear them and socialise them etc as best i can-

Our Border breeder's last litter of 4 pups 1 had a deformed rear foot the vet suggested it was pts because by about 3 months old it will probally need the leg amputated & would cost a lot of money.
She decided against this & has found a loving home for it in london
she gave it away free of course & when they get thier vet's opinion on it's leg when it is 3 months old will pay for the treatment herself

Hi flipper :-), If I have a little weakling pupy, which thankfully is not very often firstly I am guided by the bitch. If she keeps chucking it out and away from the other puppies, I do my best with it with Whelpi in a dropper if its too weak to suck for a few days, but have found that these rarely survive regardless of what I do. Rightly or wrongly I accept that mother knows best in these situations. If however the pup is vigorous and always tucked up cosy with mum and the other pups that its then really worth trying to keep it going and these ones usually make it. I always keep it with the bitch and pop the others in a warm box every couple of hours and give the weak puppy the best breast for it to suckle from without competition, milking from the mum into its mouth. I find this much easier than the pup trying to suckle with all the others pushing and shoving, and gives no stress to the struggling baby as I haven't changed its environment. I also think its really important if at all possible for it to get its fair share of colostrum as these ones really need it, and dont like using Whelpi til 3 days old if I can possibly avoid it. The others never mind as they are full up and sleeping and happy to be put into a vet bedded box with a hotty botty for 20 minutes or so where they soon start snoring again. Some will grow to normal size eventually and some smaller and lacking in bone. I would only cull a deformed puppy or one that was obviously beyond hope and dying a slow death.

Hi Brainless don't know if you meant the Afghan when you mentioned a sight hound but I know that the breeder of mine would have no hesitation in culling anything she thought would not do well either health wise or in the ring. When I voiced my opinion on this matter saying didn't they all deserve a chance I was told I had a lot to learn and it is very common in this breed.

Sad

Lisa, don't know about Afghans, but culling is quite common in some other sighthound breeds. I suspect that whether or not a breeder culls large litters probably has more to do with the breed and when they first became involved with it than anything else. When I started, in my breed, rearing a litter numbered in the teens was thought to be less than responsible. Its fine to say that all pups deserve a chance, and I respect that view, and people who simply find the idea of culling unthinkable. But from a breed pov, don't you think that there is something to be said for culling atypical pups/pups with poor conformation, and especially pups with probable future health problems? Since nature would not allow a bitch to rear an enormous litter, and since the ways of 'helping out' all have their disadvantages, can't culling be seen as something done for the benefit of both bitch and surviving pups? And isn't there at least an argument for culling if the number of puppies is far greater than the number of really good homes arranged?

I'm sorry I am totally against culling for any reason other than medical. If YOU want to breed then YOU should be responsible for the outcome. To kill off puppies just because they are the wrong colour, a difficult breed to find homes for or whatever other reason is wrong. Tough on you, if you dont want responsiblity for puppies then don't breed full stop. As fas as I'm concerned any puppy I breed if its healthy stays alive if I cant find it a good home it stays with me becuase they are MY responsibility.

Good on you Bec,
When I bred Yorkies, I had a little pup that wouldn't feed and even by Yorkie standards she was TINY. I hand reared her as mum wasn't too bothered. When she was about 3 months old she choked on a piece of pasta that I had inadvertently dropped on the floor. I tried hard to get the pasta out, then I shook her, turned her upside down etc. but after a few minutes she became limp. I thought she was already dead. In a last ditch attempt to save her, I opened her mouth and took her to the sink. I turned the tap on full blast - poor little thing filled up like a balloon - then she spluttered and coughed out the pasta.
After that, I could never have sold her. We had been through so much together. She would not have made a good show dog, even though she soon put on weight and was gorgeous. She was frankly too nervous a character (probably due, in part, to the pasta experience). She did however, make a very good pet. She was 17 when she died, wonderful with my kids, and I still miss her.

P.s must do some work now - this site is SO addictive!!!!!!!!

Sharon

I have to disagree Bec. In breeds like the one my friend owns it is known that it is next to impossible to find pet homes for the pups. It is hearbreaking but neccesary to cull in order for the breed to continue! I am sure the breeder would much rather rear a large litter and have more choice of which was the best, as she knows she could be putting to sleep the next Superstar! Also just purely financially, if she wasn't fussy and advertised them for coursing or whatever4 she could probably turn a prettty penny, but she loves her breed!

Let me give you a real life example bec. You have a bitch that is very maternal with her first litter of 8 puppies, but dislikes and is unsettled by much handling of the pups during the first week or so. In her second and last litter she presents you with 13 pups, 12 of them male. You have provisional interest from excellent homes for seven puppies, but of those, only one wants a male. You immediatially see that the bitch is not as happy with this litter as she was with the first. You have her checked by the vet, but there is no medical reason for her agitation. Halving the litter in the way that Phillippa describes only makes her more unhappy. If the 'surplus' half is in a heated box in the whelping room, she carries them back to the whelping box. If they are in another room, she stands behind the whelping room door wanting to go to them; by the time she has settled it is time to change halves. And she still very obviously dislikes having the pups handled so much. The extra work of supporting or even hand rearing some of the pups is more or less immaterial, as your litters are constantly supervised for the first fortnight anyway, but you are aware of the problems that often occur in hand reared pups. You are worried that if you carry on 'helping', she may reject the whole litter, but you do not want to over-burden your much loved bitch. It is unlikely that you will be able to find the sort of homes you demand for 10 male puppies of breed for which there is not a great public demand, but should you keep 10 male puppies, you are aware that the care all of your dogs get is going to deteriorate. What do you do?

Sorry we all take the risk of having litters of puppies that we are 'disappointed' with but thats the way it goes. If you are not prepared to accept the consequence of your actions then dont do it. It was you who mated the bitch so you are responsible and if you don't like the outcome tough.

I certainly don't envy Sharon and I don't think personally I could do it, but I do think she is acting responsibly and I think it is just unfortunate that the breed she loves produces these large litters.

No it was Ibizans, which there is really no pet market for!

Another thing to consider is rearing of pups that are unlikely to be able to lead a full and normal life. I would not rear a pup that would cause its new owners any more heartache than the average pup. This would mean that I would put to sleep deaf pups if I bred Dalmations etc. Also dwarves of the type that die young (the achondroplastic ones live fine, like that TV sports commentators Labradwarf, and there have been rare cases in my breed).

I PTS a pup at two weeks that was not growing and was bringing up its food and going rigid. The vet said it had a liver shunt, and with antibiotics and other treatment might survive, but would not grow to its full potential, and would more than likely die young! I did not want to keep it, and certainly would not pass a pup like this to someone else.

I know that some people devote their lives to such unfortunate little beings, but there are plenty of healthy dogs PTS to which they could devote their time!

Wow, what a lot of different views on the subject, but surely this is a healthy sign that we all have different ideas and ways of doing things, and obviously this topic varies greatly from breed to breed. I tend to get a lot of stick for keeping Lurchers, and yet I dont work them, nor ever will do, and yet my other breed the Wolfhound are sight/chase hounds and nobody has a go at me for keeping them! I say each to their own, and who are we to judge other peoples ideas and standards.As I have said, I will pts deformed or damaged pups, but will fight to keep alive a small or unwell puppy. I think most of you have heard at sometime about my Daisy Doughnut (yawn!!) but here is an example of a person wanting to cull an entire litter, with no reason at all. now that to me IS wrong. The mating was intentional, not an accident, when pups were born by a c-section there was 13 of them. Owner immediately asked vet to put them ALL to sleep, as she had decided she didnt want pups after all! Vet phoned me, pups were shared around, and 12 of the 13 survived, hence I have the Doughnut:)
In some breeds such as the show greyhound as an example, if litters were not bred the breed would I presume eventually die out, and yet the greyhound normally has big litters, so do you let the breed disappear or let the pups go to any type of home and ultimately finish up in rescue, or should breeders carry on culling? A very difficult choice, and Im really glad its not mine!!!!!!!!

WL,
I find the same thing with my puppies occasionally. There will be one that just will not stay by the mom or litter mates and is always off alone. I do my best with supplementation and benebac and keeping them warm, but then they start gasping for air, like fish out of water, with no sound coming out. From then on I know they will not make it. It is always very hard to let them go. I fight till the end. My last litter I lost two this way. All the other five have gone on fat and healthy. Same week I lost a kitten this way. When it rains it pours. I was back and forth for three days and nothing helped in the end all three died. I hate it when that happens. I could never cull a puppy unless it had a serious problem. Can't imagine how you can choose which ones, apart from coloring and sex. In my breed you can't tell if you have contenders for the show ring until at least 6-7 months and most times even longer.

As alot of you know I had 2 puppies born with cleft palates.
I didnt discover them until they were 10days old,{I had been bottle feeding them from day 2 as they were not as fat as the others and although they fed from their mum they needed topping up}
Before I get shouted at YES I did check for cleft palates at birth but just didnt see them!!!!!! and expected them to be much bigger as I had never seen one before.

I had the bitch puppy PTS at 3 weeks of age as she wasnt thriving, smaller than the others because the cleft palate was getting bigger as she did and both I and the vet aggreed she would have had no quality of life so called it a day before she got worse, as for the male puppy I was in full regular contact with my very good HONEST vet who said as long as he was thriving then carry on, well as he got older the cleft palate grew smaller he has never had ANY problems or been on any medication or needed it he is now 5 1/2 months old absolutly thriving , the same size as his brother and the cleft has closed up, all that remains looks like a pin prick in the roof of his mouth.

Like you said I made the choice to breed the pups and offer lifetime aftercare and help that is ever needed, I have had to top up and help a few puppies when they have been a little under the weather and most of them have turned out to be the biggest adults!!!!! NEVER a weak or sickly adult as some people say happens.
It makes you wonder how many puppies have been PTS when a few weeks TLC would have put them back on their feet.
Its a very fine balance with doing the right and wrong thing..............