Nearly that time again.

I have to admit I dislike this race more and more each year. Its a real extreme sport I feel, and I am not that impressed with horse racing as it is (especially 2 year old flat racing). Anyone else got any thoughts? Is it time it was banned?

I think it should be totally reviewed as nearly every year a horse loses its life. I too am not fond of horse racing and feel it should be better more tightly controlled to minimise any risks.

Jesse

As a kid I was always fascinated by the Grand National- though I could never watch it as it happened (still can't)- I'd always video it and watch it after I knew who had won, if any horses had died etc.
The fences and drops have been modified over the years, but it is still a test of the horses (and riders) stamina and courage, though I don't think in its present form it is cruel.
What I have always disagreed with is the number of horses allowed to run- this is what causes most falls, when horses are hampered or can't see the fences properly because there are so many others in front of them.
I also think there should be a stricter criteria for horses being allowed to run in the National- there are some really poor 250-1 horses who should not be allowed to take part, they are a danger to themselves and the other horses. In my opinion, the Grand National should be for only the very best chasers to compete in.
I have been to a few cross country events, and certainly think some of those jumps are cruel- there is no 'give' in them at all.
Liz

There was quite a debate about this last year, all I can say is, tradition does not make it right, bear baiting was traditional once.............

Yep & so was dragging cavewomen about by the hair...

Never have bet on the GN, never will.  

Oh, is that not allowed any more? thought that was one of the more fun activities! ;)

To be honest I have no problem with it. The fences are much smaller than they used to be, the landings have been evened out, there are more run-outs and the size of the field has been limited. Short of taking them round on leading-reins I don't think there's much more that can be done.
:)

I cant watch it... i hate it when they fall
(usually cry if they die etc)

Donna and charliex

I don't like it. I don't particularly like the racing industry as it is...and I find it bizarre that hunting is targeted so aggressively when so many race horses are badly treated. I agree that the GN has improved in conditions, but I still don't like it.

i think they should change the height of the larger fences with ditches after . other then that i think it should stay.
i think mabe health rules and micro chipping horses should be a rule! and anyone found dumping them should be jailed/fined , unhealthy horses not allowed to run at all.

if you look at the rescues .. mainly tbresce in kent they will tell you that there are less being treated that way , there now being sold on for a tidy profit .( haha penny ) have far more cases of cobs being mistreated then tb's there turning up at horse markets mainly where the meat men come to buy there food for pet food!or glue . I was once asked to go buy a horse from the market they were going for £5 £2 for a foal .i dident have a horse trailer so couldent help so mistreating horses is everywhere  its just like dogs  i dont know i think they have improved things alot more and these people have realised they can get a bit of cash out of these horses.

The fact is everyone who owns a lively horse or rides one they will kno  horses love running and jumping they do so on there own even without a rider , if the rider fell of the horse the horse still runs . if  horses dident love it so much why would they carry on jumping .  hopefuly when i have more time i will go rescue some of these horses from the meat men .

but this same topic can be applied for greyhounds there exactly the same .how there treated .the question is then should greyhound racing be banned too . 
I think there should be tough new rules ! 

Its a bit more intricate than that. Horses don't run because they enjoy it - not over those distances. Horses are flight animals, therefore they run through fear. In racing they run because the other horses are running - a typical flight reflex of a herd together.

My horses are on 14 acres. The only time they gallop is when freaked by something, or rarely my mare will gallop up to me when I call her for dinner. Josh then assumes there is something about to eat him and he gallops up with her.

TB rescue...hmmm, well, I am not sure we will ever know the true figures for what happens to retired/ex racehorses...and particularly those that don't make the grade.

i know there flight animals but have you ever jumpted your horse and it pull up ? these horses can do the same . if you go to the local track in your area you will see these horses arent just brought out for a one of , there racing against horses everyday . so the fear factor has to be taken out of it ,
i dont think the racing aspect is crewl these horses are trained and very fit . i dont agree with the drugs they are sometimes given and the way there thrown away ,
but like anysport i think it should stay but new rules.
Fox hunting is crewl as far as i can see , dogs ripping other animals to tiny bits you might as well say dog fighting is ok ,
But i think the new hunting where they dont hunt a (fox) but just go on a hunt is good . and i dont have a problem with that as long as any animals arent  getting shredded by dogs that are blood hungry.and the owners who are sick enough to like to watch this . its how i feel about fox hunting .id feel the same if it was a cat or what ever being hunted.

race horses are sometimes kept in 24 x 7 and develop very bad stable habits - is that not cruel for an animal that is built to live outside?

race horses can be broken early and ridden at 2 years old. is that not cruel? in private horse ownership circles its deemed irresponsible to back a horse under 4 - and yet these are backed and raced.

300 horses killed on the race track every year, nearly 80% of flat 2/3yo incur lung heamoraging <sp> and something like 90% get gastric ulcers. If you stood and watched donkeys in a donkey derby being whipped/flogged animal right activists would be up in arms.

For the record -  I follow fox hunting and I thoroughly enjoy it - and I have never yet seen a fox get caught - its always far smarter than the huntsmen.

you say sometimes . yes sometimes they are but as i said new rules need to be brought in about health . not all owners do this .this is like taring all dog owners with the same brush were it comes to dog fighting .

fox hunting mm i wouldent want the risk of a fox being caught could you really watch one being caught i couldent ...letting someone let there dog rip a poor innocent animal , that really is a sicko to do that  :( foxes do get caught :( i wouldent enjoy witnessing that and would be tempted to slap the person in charge of the dog. bad owners i supose , you could put them in the same place as the dogs in the park who go for other dogs ,  i wouldent want any animal hurt especaily for the fun of it . my last word on this sub

have you ever been hunting? if not, you are not in full possession of the facts, so therefore cannot comment :)

A bit unfair Chloe, I am certainly able to comment on an activity that I haven't participated in, like I can talk about football (never played) etc etc, it is about being in possession of the facts and forming an opinion of them.  I agree that Fox Hunting is terribly cruel and unnecessary, but refuse to get drawn into the debate as there have been so many threads on this subject before, and pro hunters will drag up the same arguments every time (they obviously believe they are valid, fair enough I suppose)and neither side will ever persuade the other side to change their opinion........

OK, lets say you cannot make comments that are based upon experience and not propaganda from either side :)

Charliepud says " I agree that Fox Hunting is terribly cruel and unnecessary, but refuse to get drawn into the debate"

So why even mention it then??? :(

Just agreeing with a previous poster, not a debate as I haven't put forward any more arguments........and a lot of my opinions are based on fact, not only from press and the like, or from gut reactions, but from observations gained in debates from a wide circle of friends, some of whom are pro countryside, and yes, who are still friends as we agree to dis agree occasionally, and never to debate after more than 2 glasses of wine - shouldn't be a problem now I am a forced tee-totaller for at least the next 9 months!

Lots of hunts return without catching a fox.
You would be lucky to see a fox caught by the hounds as you should not really be in front of the huntsman :)
The fox is killed instantly by a dog just like rabbits, rats and all other things caught and killed by dogs, sometimes it IS pulled apart but after it has died.
The fun lies NOT in the killing of the fox (that is vermin control) but the day out, riding across exciting country, watching hounds work, preserving the coverts so necessary to wildlife etc.

Fox hunting is a bit like marriage, you may not agree with it or believe in it but there are those that do and who should be allowed to pursue it

IMHO

You would be lucky to see a fox caught by the hounds as you should not really be in front of the huntsman

That depends if you are on foot - we had a great viewing point on Saturday of the fox legging it across a field with the hounds trapped the other side by fencing... he ran into the woods and wasn't seen again - even though we could see everyone looking for him... the rest of the field were further down the hill :D

I often think that you actually get the best view of the entire picture if you follow on foot/car.  Especially in some areas where often topographical features obscure the view.  (The down side is that the hip flask can get emptied much quicker as you don't have to remain in control of your equine) :D :D

Very good point! We were actually going out on a hack on my two on Saturday, but my arab was in a very flighty mood - we then saw why - the hunt were at the bottom of the drive and she had decided she might like to go with them thankyouverymuch (Josh went to sleep - typical ID!). So we put the horses back in the field and got in the car (minus a hip flask :rolleyes: ).

A subject I feel well qualified to comment on however have to disagree with some of the comments.  I own an ex racehorse and he is the 2nd TB I have owned.  The racing industry has changed immensely over the years and I hasten to add for the better.  Yes you do still get the unscrupulous however isn;t that industry wide.  I can trace the entire history/movements/career of my ex racehorse even down to what day he had his annual jabs on 10 years ago.  Yes he does have gastric ulcers, so again I have done a lot of research into this condition.  It is common in racehorses and is attributed in part to the diet, however it can also be found in any high level competition horse whether they compete in Dressage show jumping etc yet these disciplines do not get the criticism that racing receives.  Wind Sucking is now perceived to be a symptom of gastric ulcers how many horses that have never seen a racetrack wind suck?  Look at any equine discipline and you will find a lot of horses that don;t make it and can be passed on for token fees.  Again nobody has an issue with these.  TB rehabilitation receives a lot of its funding from the racing industry yet this is not publicised enough.  A lot of ex racers can be found in the hunting field as this gives them exposure to life and can be paramount in their rehabilitation.

Any one who rides or who owns a horse will no doubt agree with me when I say the majority of injuries their horses receive occur out in the field and a high percent of these injuries occur to the legs.  Therefore you will find that once again many top show jumpers/dressage horses spend a high proportion of their daily life stabled yet nobody would bat an eyelid at this. Why? Dont lose sight of that fact that a TB is not the same as a native breed and therefore will not cope as well in harsh conditions or living out there are of course exceptions to this which should be encouraged however try telling my boy that hes living out!  You would have one very unhappy horse.

More importantly horses should be viewed the same as our canine companions.  Some work their dogs, some show however each breed is handled/trained etc according to their characteristics.  A TB cannot and should not be compared to a cob/welsh/Shetland or indeed any other breed of horse.  They are as individual as each breed of dog.  My afghan loves to run however other breeds of dogs might feel differently preferring a leisurely stroll.  Try getting a shire to perform like a TB or even better try getting a TB to pull an old brewery dray!  TBs love to gallop, its what their good at.  Yes there is the flight/fight element that can be found generically across the equine world however my TB can quite often be found having a good blast round the field just for the fun of it.  Even better if his mate joins in.  Its what he does, he loves it and to try and stop that would be as difficult as stopping a lab from eating :)

I totally agree however that racing and more specifically the National needs tighter controls and the comment by Liz regarding the criteria was a very valid point.  However should it be banned? Not from where I am sitting.  A TB is a beautiful, intelligent and graceful animal doing what its good at.  Control it, regulate it from training upwards and encourage rehabilitation however let it stay, nobody would want to see gun dogs banned from the field so why should TBs be different.

I wouldn't want to see racing totally banned as a sport...I would like to see more consideration of equine welfare - which, as you rightly say, is happening anyway. I went to see a race in Beverley once, the first race I watched the horse broke its leg on the straight coming up to the finishing line - seeing its leg dangling then watching the screens go up is something that will live with me forever - I went straight home and I will never go again. I personally wouldn't support it through betting etc, but I can't see it ever being banned.

The GN is, to me, an extreme form of racing, one I am not keen on.

I once saw a flat-racer break its leg simply running on the straight. :( As you say, it was very distressing seeing it trying to slow down. But I don't believe that was the fault of racing. It could just as easily to the horse running in its home paddock.

And it should be remembered that the fences in 'chasing are a lot more forgiving than those in the cross-country section of eventing.

Unless that horse suffered from its management/age of backing...hence his joints/bones were not as strong?

Its not something I ever want to see again. I love TB's, but give me one with some ID in it to make it a big ruffty tufty good doer any day (suits my lifestyle better).

I agree they are certainly backed too soon, especially those destined for the flat. In general horses aren't backed till they are 3 or 4, yet there are flat races for 2 year olds. It seems too much, too young IMO.

very much so - they haven't even finished growing :(

Whilst I agree on the whole with what you are saying, we mustn't forget that the day a race horse is born and its birthday are not the same thing.  Like the Queen they have official birthdays & real birthdays

If the breeder/trainer gets it right and "2 year old" can actually be very nearly 3 when it runs - not that it makes it right to run a horse that age.

As all racehorses' official date of birth is January 1st, one that is actally born on 31st December has its first birthday the next day. So it is a '2-year-old' at 12 months and 1 day. I would guess that most breeders would falsify the d.o.b. to give the poor thing a chance! It could be 13 months old racing against one nearly twice its age. :(

I am not too keen onthe National - used to love it but too many horses have been killed over the years for me to be happy about it; for me any sport that has a high risk element in it for the animals has a question mark hanging over it. I remember watching Red Rum win each time, and it was so fantastic, but i also read his story and realised what a hard time he had had generally :( not with his owners at that time but beforehand. HOw he used to come in from a race with stripes on him from the whip :( and then  of course there was the problem with his leg. HIs win was a real triumph and as i remember he became a celeb and was given a happy retirement which he certainly did deserve :)

Some of the jockeys are far too whip happy too, Frankie Dettori seems to stand out for me on that one but he's notthe only one by any means.

Lindsay

Lovely lady says (re:foxhunting) "my last word on this sub "

Good, then we wont have to listen to your ignorant bigoted views will we :)

Sam
Just because someone has a different view to yours, doesn't make them ignorant or bigoted (sp?), or the fact that they hold a different opinion to you, I am aware you are involved in the hunting fraternity, that is your choice, just as it is ours to be against it.  In fact this thread had a reasonable amount of integrity until you decided to take it to another  level, and why put a nice smiley face next to such a nasty accusation, or did you press the wrong button?? :(
Hayley (who had planned to stop at the above, but is feeling slightly hormonal, so just couldn't, sorry!)

Sam you incredibly rude person.

I hope I never have the misfortune to meet you or anyone as incredibly impolite as you

chloe says "My horses are on 14 acres. The only time they gallop is when freaked by something, or rarely my mare will gallop up to me when I call her for dinner. "

How very very sad. :( My horses go out in their field & gallop for the sheer joy and hell of it nearly every day. nothing spooks them or frightens them....they simply love to have a burn up.

what exactly is "sad" about having horses that don't feel the need to gallop every five minutes? my horses are very very happy and healthy and fit and live out 24 x 7 - so perhaps they are just laid back in temperement? perhaps they just enjoy wandering around instead of going flat out everywhere?

Agreed Chloe, just like dogs they all have different motivations, they have the space, nothing stopping them if they wanted to :)

exactly. some folk really ruin their argument by being obnoxious don't they ;) :D

Give me another few months then I'll show everyone what obnoxious really means! :D 

i agree ok we were having a debate but i think we were all polight enough to each other without causing arguments everyone has there own say , even if we dont all agree we dont slate eachothers names , i think this one poster has been very rude ,  i might not agree with certain things ChloeH or other people on this thread have said  but i wouldent talk to anyone like sam has .

Lovely ladys says "think mabe health rules and micro chipping horses should be a rule! and anyone found dumping them should be jailed/fined , unhealthy horses not allowed to run at all. "

1)An unhealthy horse cannot run at the GN.
2)All thoroughbred horses (i.e. race horses) ARE microchipped...its the rules!
3)not often you hear of a race horse being dumped!!!!!

sam you dont know alot do you , ex race horses being dumpted everyone knows it happens ! just as tbrescue go on , i have replied to this last very rude person as she dosent seem to be aware of the facts , im sorry but you are the person with a problem sam you have not only tried to slate me for having my own opinion but many others on this thread too, now sam get of your high horse and get a life!

i never bet on it anymore because whatever i fancy always dies!