Hi all,
I have been going to obedience classes with Khanu since he was 14 weeks. His heel work is really coming along nicely, head up and now with attitude! :) However whenever I halt he takes a step back to sit and is no longer in the correct position. He also used to sit skewed, but I solved that by practising by a barrier. I have been advised to use a hands-on method but I don't like this. 1) because I'm rubbish at it, mainly because I don't like it and Khanu knows it. 2) Khanu immediately resits any kind of force (even gentle) and I guess all I'm teaching him is resitance.
This being the case how can I stop him stepping back using a hands-off method?
As an aside, he also sits back at the present, so ends up far enough away that I have to take one step forward to him to reach his collar, I would like to solve this too.
Any ideas are welcome
Thanks
Kelly

to stop him sitting back in the present, have you tried sitting on the edge of a chair and calling him to you,when he comes to you have the treat or whatever you use ready and when he comes between your legs move the treat upwards towards your chest and say sit he should come in close then,don't forget reward him when he does it, but don't over do the training bit, if he does it once leave it and then go back to it a little while latter, my trainer taught me this method of sitting on the chair when my dog sat back,and it worked as it required no hands on method at all,but she also said to me never train a dog over and over with the same position if it gets it right leave it as you don't want to train till it gets it wrong.
hope this makes some sense to you.
Carol

forgot to ask which method of training do you use, treats, toy, clicker, voice,
Carol

Hi Kelly

He is not a Dobermann by any chance is he?  I organised a Dobe obedience day recently and nearly all of them did this and I had to try a lot of things with Maverick before I could get her sitting actually beside me when we stopped.  She was a year old before I started training her for competitive obedience and it has been hard work - I am hoping when I start with a new pup it will be easier.

Do a few paces at your normal heelwork then as you give the sit command make an elegant movement with your left arm/wrist and take it straight forward  (containing titbit) the flick wrist up in a sit command..  I found that if I just shoved my arm in front she did not follow it but it I did it smoothly she moved in front of me and with the wrist flick and sit command ended up sitting beside me.  I was doing this for about a month, every time we stopped before I could start to drop it.

I still do this occasionally if she starts to lag. 

Bringing a dog in close for the present.  There are are many ways of doing this, one is to lean against a wall with your legs spread in front of you and encourage Khanu to come inbetween your legs - you can also do this when sitting on the very edge of a chair.  Have your feet straight and facing forward and your knees just wide enough for him to get inbetween. 

If you are in the open and he sits back then instead of taking a step forward which probably means you lean over him then take a step back or stand with one leg forward and one back and try and bring him in close with toy or titbits

HTH

Hi Kerioak/Hippychick
I use a mixture of training methods. I tend to use clicker training at home as he responds well to this with fewer distractions, at training class its all about voice, toys and treats, its such hard work keeping his attention and enthusiasm up, I find the clicker gets in the way, well gets dropped mainly :D
Khanu is a 9mth GSD. I know he's still only a baby really, but I thought it better to work on these things now rather than leave them to get truely ingrained.
I have tried the sitting on front edge of chair thing, but maybe I've moved forwards too soon. I think I expect him to have got it before he really has, need more patience :)
I'll give your flick of the wrist a go though Kerioak. Khanu just stops if I put my arm in front to try and lure him, obviously has no idea what it is I want. I was thinking of maybe using a target stick? What do you think?
Thanks
Kelly

hes still only a baby!bless, GSDs do tend to sit backwards abit.
as long as you keep his attention "upward" im sure it will come!. really praise/click if hes in the correct position so hes sure about what you want,& dont reward any sloppy sits in any way.

Thanks Michelled!
I need more patience :) any ideas on how to get some? :D
Oh I don't mean I lose my temper with him, it's just I know he doesn't understand what I want, but I don't know how to show him! It's great when he finally gets it and you see that look of 'Oh thats what you want'. Just wish I was a better trainer :)

sometimes its easy to forget they are only babies,some things take awhile to sink in so youll just have to be as consistent as you can be!
if you break down a exercise into pieces,then you can easily move back a step or two to regain confidence if something does go wrong.
i will do some fun twirls or weaves through legs,or play with the tuggy to break things up abit.
my trainer says," the more you ask,the more you need to give". i just try to remeber that!!!

Wise wise words. I will repeat them to myself often :)

Reading Roy Goutte's new book Get it Right might help.

do you like it?
poppi (the star) is my flynns half sister.
i think it is a really good straight forward book ,easiliy understandable too!

Thanks jumbuck
I have so many books now, I've always wanted a library room in my house, I'm now actually getting close to needing one :D

Me to. I love books but I first get them from the library and then get them if I think they are worth getting. Happy Reading. Mind you I have to make sure they aren't too heavy or else when I nod off the dog gets it dropped on her head.:):)

I've not read all the posts so someone may have mentioned it already but here goes!

Think about which foot you stop on. Remember the guide for the dog tends to be the closest leg, normally with a dog working on the left the dog sees that leg move. Remember we move off left leg first if we want our dog with us but right leg first if we are leaving our dog. When stopping, for a dog which works forward stopping on the left leg, (Right leg up to left) will help the dog to stop in the right place. In your case, with the dog dropping back on sitting, stopping on the right leg, (Left up to right) will help because the dog will tent to move on an extra half a pace before stopping.

Best wishes, John

Well just to throw a spanner in the works John :D some people actually move off on the right leg first for several reasons.

First of all tackling the "left v right" argument re dog with us or not, this is similar to the "stay v wait" debate. eg if we move off with our left leg our dog will move with us but if we move off with our right leg it won't.  Why not? or Why? even :D.  If I tell my dog to stand, sit or down further instruction is superfluous; the dog should maintain that position until and unless it is given another command therefore whether you are doing a recall, an A recall, positions on the move, distance control, stays etc you can just give the one command.  It works for me :D

Secondly if you watch most people move their deportment is less "Mary Ray" but more "Mary Sway" :D therefore you will see a degree of roll and transverse movement.  If you actually move off on your right leg you can actually encourage a closer position whereas, unless your deportment is fab, you run the risk of pushing your dog away with the left leg first :D

Oooh confused now!
I actually have real problems with footwork, due to the fact I was (well still am) in the cadet forces and therefore military drill is now very much ingrained. Stepping off on the right foot I really have to think about before doing, I'm sure this gives a much better cue (hesitation) than me leaving on the right foot. I think our heel work may be better if I treat it more as a drill exercise like I would with the cadets. Well I've starting treating the drill with the cadets more like a dog training exercise :D Guess it's a case of practise, practise, practise

Just try and relax with your dog and keep practising, buy a book or get one of Mary Ray's videos and it will come eventually.  Practice your footwork without your dog to start with until it just becomes a habit to you.  You will be fine.

Best wishes,

Well it works for me Tohme.

<<if we move off with our left leg our dog will move with us but if we move off with our right leg it won't.  Why not? or Why?>>

The whole point of moving off on the left is that the dog sees the left leg move earlier than it would see the right which is masked be the left leg. Therefore the dog and handler would move more "As one" rather than the dog playing catchup.

As to not moving off with us, whether stay or wait, it is just part of being consistent. The dog soon learns that he is not to go if you step off that way purely because that is the way you always do it. When Anna is sat facing me and I want her to go back I sometimes want her to turn in a particular direction. I can achieve this quite simply by the hand I use to give the signal.

As to giving a stay command or not, I remember attending an obedience handlers course back in the early 1970's and this debate was going on then. I always use a stay command when leaving a dog for exactly the reason you use when sighting Mary Ray. I'm nowhere near as good as her and need all the help I can get! Also I have a family who would quite happily tell my dogs to sit but completely forget to cancel it!

Regards, John

Also I have a family who would quite happily tell my dogs to sit but completely forget to cancel it!

:D :D :D  I've been there :D

I have a husband that told my dog to stay outside the off licience and came home without him. :rolleyes:

He was still 'staying' when I ran half a mile up the road to find him. He got loads of cuddles that night, hubby got ignored.

Sandra

Another reason for moving off on the various feet is balance and weight.  If your dog is sitting close enough to you he can feel your balance alter, though your leg which tells him which leg you are moving off on before you do it.  This is partly how the dogs in the top obedience classes work without verbal commands in heelwork, they know what you are doing before you do it because of the weight changes etc.

Question:  How does a dog know the difference between sit and stay, down and stay and stand and stay, they are three different positions all with the word stay added.

Think about it, we have some clever dogs really.

It all depends on how you use "Stay" Christine. I only use "Stay" as a last command and not with the sit of down command. Stay, in the context I teach it just means "Don't move, I'm coming back"

As I've said before, my obedience these days is a lot looser than competitive obedience but for all that my dog has to be under control, possibly at far greater distances. Sending my dog for a Blind (Unmarked retrieve) at up to 300 yards, stopping her on the whistle and redirecting her if need be. There are a lot of similarities to Working Trials but also a lot of differences.

We also have to give a lot of thought to terrain. For example, a dog running across the slope of rising ground will always tend to bend up the hill. Also a dog running into a three quarter wind will gradually bend into the wind. The deviation may not be much but could easily be enough to put the dog on the wrong side of the bird/dummy to be able to scent it.

Best wishes, John

As I train my heelwork off lead position is something I have to work harder on than most people :D I think people who train this way are the exception rather than the rule.

I also teach all the parts separately. I teach position rather than stays I give only one command & expeect when trained them to stay in that position until released. I then rarely have stay breaking problems

I use a very light collar & lead when working eventually on lead for competition & my dogs always have better heel free than on lead at first.

It can pay off using a very short lead if you have problems getting your dog to watch you or stay close

My youngest collie is a natural leaner on(something I dislike)in heelwork & I never really did competitions with him because of this I also have to step off on the right leg otherwise I would be touching him when I start heelwork

My chief offender is 91 years old so education is a forlorne hope! ;)

Completey agree with your method John as I use it myself :)
Some dogs respond more consistently with subtle body language from their handler than always concentrating on a verbal command.  Whilst I agree also with you Tohme that the final command is valid until the dog receives another - I'm all for making dog handling as easy as possible.
If simply using one or the other leg to step off on cues a dog then great - if it works use it - and it works very well :D
Lara x

im with john ,if you want the dog to move with you;left leg 1st, if you want the dog to stay/wait while you move off right leg 1st.stopping right leg first & left leg half step to close up. (if anybody sees me at a show though youll see me ignoring my own stopping advice, & stopping in a amazing variety of ways!!!!whoops!)

Sorry to steal your topic slightly but how did you get the head up with your GSD.  I have one and while he will walk to heel his head is all over the place, up down, looking side to side and (very rarely) at me!

BTW - ours always used to sit slightly back from us until he was about 16 months old, I think he used to sit and then slide slightly.  We always used to pat our leg and say 'Close' to correct him so that he came into the right place then treat.  He now does it automatically.

Thanks
Jayne

Does he watch you at other times - in other words is it a general lack of attention or only when doing heelwork.

If when heelwork then you could try holding a treat or toy so that his head is in the required position, the moment he is where you want him, click and treat if you use a clicker or say a sharp "good" and treat if you don't.  Do this a few times and then gradually extend the time his head is correct before you click or say good and treat.

I guess it is a general problem not just during heelwork.  He is a very nosey / independent dog and will spend a lot of time checkign out his surroundings.  We have worked hard on watch and he will instantly look at us now so I'll continue with that one.

Thanks for the heelwork tip though I'll try that too.  The problem is that he is far too easily distracted!!! ;-)

Jayne