Hello, I have a beautiful male Golden Retriever. He has not been hip scored or had his eyes tested, however, I do have his family tree, have seen all his 'relatives' and know his breeder well. I wish to breed from him, but I obviously would never dream of jepordising the breed or the health of any future animals. I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice of this subject as I really want to breed from him. He is a lovely, affectionate, gentle and beautiful dog and my whole world revolves around him!!

I would very much appreciate anyone contacting me about this.
Many thanks!

Hi Gemma, my advice is this. Assuming you don't already show you boy, find out where your nearest ringcraft class is, and start show training. Then get him entered for some shows, watch carefully what the other exhibitor do in the way of handling and have a chat with some of them after judging and ask what they think of him. Also get your lads breeder to have a look at him to assess his quality. Once you are winning consistently you should have him hip scored eye tested and whatever else is neccessary then pray for good results. Then if breeders and exhibitors begin to show an interest in him, you'll be ready.
You should know that Golden Retrievers are a numerically huge breed, and only the very best quality males will ever be used at stud. So, you'll need alot of good fortune for this idea to come to fruition.
Dawn R.

Goldens have big problems with hereditory ailments. Please don't entertain breeding without eye testing and hip scoring. It is so important for the long term good of the breed.

Regards, John

Have to disagree with you John we don't have big problems we just need to be very careful.
Owning and showing Goldens myself ,thre are many excellent stud dogs in the Showring .So my advice would be to show him get other breeders opinions of him
do all the health tests .Then if he proves himself think about it.
The fact he may look nice is not  good enough may I suggest you get a copy of the breed standard and do alot of research,good luck.

Briony:-)

Golden Retrievers suffer from seven hereditary eye conditions Briony, and a BMS which while not a disaster could certainly be improved on. This person is enquiring about using a dog at stud which has not been eye tested or scored. Do you want to use him? I would not! Certainly not until I could be as sure as possible that he would not pass on anything nasty!

We all love our chosen breed but we should not be blind to their failings or we will never improve on them.

John

I also forgot to mention Cardio myopathy and OCD.

John

I'm with you John a woman in the next village breeds from her bitch to her dog every season, both really good pedigrees but neither health tested themselves. the bitch has "fainting"spells in hot weather & after exercise but has no health problems according to the owner. She just gets "over heated"

Someone at our dog club rescued her dog from a town about 75 miles away only to find it was bred by this woman & guess what yes he to has there "fainting spells"& has CM

Hi,

What I said was ,it would be better if her dog was in the ring to see what her dog was up against and get more advice and get her dog hips and eyes done,read up alot:-)
We do not have a huge problem, yes we need to look to lower the hips score without losing the rest of the dog,this cannot be achieved overnight and i'm very aware about HD in Goldens .
I would only use acceptable hip  scores to breed .My dogs are hip scored and eyes tested if I was not happy with the results or someone elses dogs I wouldn't use it.
Briony:-)

John,

If this dog proved himself in the ring,was agood example of his breed and she got him hip scored eyes tested and were good results,

the pedigrees were suitable why not???

Briony:-)

Hi Guest,

Forgot to mention get in touch and join The Golden Retriever Club.
You will get excellent advice, and many of us follow their excellent code of practice.

Briony:-)

If's Briony, if's.

Look at it this way Briony. A bitch has a litter of puppies, possibly in Goldens 8 puppies. She has possibly three litters in her breeding lifetime. That is a total of 24 puppies she has put out into the wide world.

A dog being used at stud sires a litter of puppies, again in all possibilities 8. During a year he could easily sire ten litters (I know of studs siring many more than this). That is 80 puppies in his first year! He possibly has a stud life of six years, 80*6=480 puppies!

The stud dogs in any breed are far more influential than the bitches and from those figures it is so easy to see why!

No, Goldens are not much worse for hereditary problems than Labradors who have 6 hereditary eye conditions but much worse than Flatcoats who only have one. Most of these problems were around long before this generation of breeders but because of advances in genetic research we how know so much more about them than our ancestors did so it is us who have the best chance so far to improve on our chosen breeds.

Regards, John

John,

Obviously common sense is applied and I'm sure The Golden Retriever Club will give her sound pracitcal advice.

There is no reason if all her health tests come back with GOOD results and the dog is good example of the breed so therefore she needs to show it to find out and the dog comes from a good pedigree and she can research this and obtain all the other dogs results in her pedigree why she could use it at stud.

Just make sure you've done research talk to as many pepole in the Golden breed,join the breed club and get your dog All its health tests and enjoy showing him.When you have those results and you will know whether he was good enough in the ring you can make an informed choice whether then to use him at stud.

Of course its about if's john she hasn't had any of the tests done yet or got him shown she was asking advice.

I have a young show male thats done reseanobly well in the ring hes is due to be hipscored next month I would only use him at stud IF his results are good enough.

Briony:-)

Hi i think you are being very reasonable in your thinking, all you need to do is have your dog health checked and if everything is clear you can use him for stud. although that can prove difficult as he has never done it before, and you could get a bitch that is difficult to mate. I know i have a problem bitch and they have to be held together untill she swells up and holds the dog. good luck anyway..

I'm glad Goldens are not my breed if thats "All you need to do"

John :(

And I'm glad i am not thinking of buying one of the pups.

Hi guest, there is also the question of by letting your dog mate with a bitch, there is a strong possiblility that he will try to mate with bitches on your everyday walks, now he has had the taste of it so to speak.

If you live in the middle of nowhere it may not be a problem, but if he is a pet and you live in a built up area, then I would think very carefully about it. 

If you want to mate him so you can have a puppy, you might be better to go back to his breeder to find a puppy of similiar lines. 

Sandra

What is as posted at the top of this thread is irresponsible. There is a statement that the dog is not tested but no statement of any intention to test! Yes we should try to educate but no we should not be condoning irresponsible breeding yet that is exactly what some people posting on this thread seem to be doing!

Here we have a breed with the highest number of hereditary eye problems of any breed, hip problems, elbow problems, shoulder problems, quite a few cases of gastric torsion and some very poor temperaments creeping and everything in the gardens lovely!

I am fast loosing faith in common sense!

John

I imagine that this guest has been 'chased away' by now. However I was the first to answer their query, and I gave  excellent advice, and I included the advice to have all the relevant health tests before standing this dog at stud.
Dawn R.

I was just trying to put another angle on it, no way was I trying to ignore the health check issues, they are by far the most important.
Sandra

Hi,

I would also like to point out that at No time did I advise this person to use her dog at stud unless ALL heaith test carried out and results good enough,had her dog has proven itself in the showring,got MORE advice from The Golden Retriever Club and spoken to alot more people in the breed and did the necessary research in her pedigree.
By the time she has done all this her dog could well  be unacceptable and just enjoying showing him if he good enough.
AS i've pointed out he would have to be agood example of his breed and is being shown well and have good results to think about stud work and ALL that entails.

Briony:-)

John    
ohh dear had a problem with my pc so couldnt reply sooner...The lady who asked about breeding did actually mention about getting her dog health tested. And i am sure that all these Breeders do not take all the animals in the show ring. Provided the animals in question are of Breed standard, temprament and health checks what is the problem???? or is it that you want exclusive rights over breeding??? there are so many people out there breeding for money, it isnt about that its about providing excellent quallity dogs to the best of your ability from healty happy dogs Yes i get angry with people who breed anything with anything and not care about the health of these animals but there are plenty of people who do care and do it right. I find myself ringing adds in the paper, asking them about the pups and a reply of ohh i dont know i used the dog down the road, That makes my Blood boil. And while i am on the subject there are plenty of so called ( licenced breeders )out there who don't show there animal but breed and breed and breed... I do not intend to insult anybody by my remarks.

Provided the animals in question are of Breed standard, temprament and health checks what is the problem????
Certainly - but if you don't mix with a number of dogs of the same breed, how do you know how your's compares?  Some people read the breed standard (and many who produce puppies haven't even heard of it!) and make it fit their dog!!
its about providing excellent quallity dogs to the best of your ability from healty happy dogs
Certainly - but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ears!!  We all love our pets and think them the best in the world, and so we should!!  But that doesn't mean that when they're mated with another 'health checked' pet down the road, they will look and behave anything like the breed standard.  That is why, as a groomer, I see long legged, slab sided Cockers with woolly coats, enormous Westies with soft coats and skin trouble that will plague them for the rest of their lives, Yorkies with woolly coats the size of Cockers - all bred by good intentioned folk who wanted to reproduced their wonderful pet!!  The families that they SELL them to have to pay the price in Vets'/groomers bills and anguish at the health problems that the breeders didn't know were behind their pet!  Temperament, now that's a different matter.  Just because Flossy and Fido may be sweet natured doesn't mean that their offspring will be if their ancestors were evil!!  How would you know this without involvement with the breed?
Showing dogs isn't about saying "My dog is better than your dog".  It says that my dog is near enough to the breed standard to be consistantly placed and therefore suitable to be bred from.  And learning about the dogs in the pedigrees, KNOWING these dogs rather than it being just a collection of names.  Genetics is a complicated subject and getting your bitch checked by your local Vet just isn't good enough!

<<or is it that you want exclusive rights over breeding>>

I dont breed! And I find that insulting!

If you dont like what I said then tough! Or if any information I posted was wrong then tell me which bit you thought was wrong?

Do you not agree that a stud dog is so important to the future of a breed? You made no mention of having your dog health tested in your original post, only the fact that he was not tested. You make no mention about comparing him with his peers either in the ring or the field.

I stand by my posts!

John

John,

The guest was asking for advice,she got sensible replies.
Now she has been given the advice all we can do hope she has read the whole thread and made a  very careful decsion.

Briony:-)

She obviously did not like them though Briony which makes me wonder why she posted in the first place and also makes me wonder why I wasted my time answering it. I have better things to do with my life that post unwanted info on here. Sometimes I wonder why we bother at all.

John

John
I've only just logged on....am not involved in the thread at all....but out of all sincerity I just felt I needed to confirm that many of us (well I certainly do), take a back seat and respectfully listen and learn from people like yourself giving invaluable advice (sometimes to people that are unappreciative :rolleyes: ).
You 'bother' because you care...and for novices like me....we would be extremely worse off without your expert opinions posted on this site.
I for one....depend hugely on the advice posted on this sight and wanted to take the opportunity to say thank you.
Jo

stephanie 1964
I have read and re-read the original post and NOWHERE does it state the poster will have health tests done...it says they have not been done..no yet on the end of that statement and no mention of them being done before breeding.
Archer

Hi,

I think  enough has been said,lets just hope she has followed peoples advice if she is serious about breeding ,and lets drop it now, we've all said our bit.
This site is good for advice and we all have a little to offer on all subjects and when we pull together thats a wealth of experience,knowledge that we can all pass around and share we may not agree with all of it,but if you pick the information that is relevant to you ,listen to what everyone has to say and then do what you think is right.

Briony:-)   (Loves her Goldens)

Briony, you may have said all you wish but others may not. Only admin can close a thread and unless they do, if people have things to say I don't doubt they will. ;)

can i just say I disagree with the advice given that the guest should get him/ herself off to a dog show in order for her dog to be deemed "worthy" of being put out to stud. I agree that health testing is important, but what about obedience/agility/working trials etc? surely they are a better way of judging how well a dog performs physically, rather than just being judged on looks alone? also, i feel that if a person has the relevant health tests done and their dog has a nice temperament, there is no reason why they should feel they have to go to dogshows in order to have a suitable dog to use at stud?. lots of people, my wife and I included, do not wish to go to dogshows, nor do we feel they are the be all and end all of judging a dog's breeding worth.

sorry John you have me mixed up with the guests Question.. All i said was she had mentioned about health checks so must be willing to do them. And it goes without saying if he had a very good pedigree and found a bitch that would complement him in breeding what is so wrong with that???? and as i said not every breeding dog is shown in the ring. Any tom dick or harry can get a licence to breed but how many do it properly??? not many otherwise we wouldnt see all these licenced kennels advertising all these different breeds of pups for sale. And when i mentioned about using the dog down the rd i meant i had rang adverts in the paper and when asked what was in there pedigree there reply was (ohhh i dont know i used the dog down the road) i certainly didnt mean i dont see the harm in doing that.

<<All i said was she had mentioned about health checks so must be willing to do them.>>

I'm afraid there's no 'must' about it, and unfortunately it doesn't follow that the guest even knows what 'health checks' are needed! Very many people assume that taking the dog to the their own vet and being told "I can't find anything wrong" means that's all that's required!

And I'm not sure you quite understand about breeding licences. These are only required by larger-scale breeders than most people - generally commercial kennels. People with a bitch or two don't need a licence.
:)

I am not stupid! i do know about breeding licences. Basically all alot of you seam to do is slate peoples comments. I know there are a few nice ones on this forum but they are few and far between...And as far as Johns remark goes Working Goldens are different in height body etc as show goldens are shorter with longer coats etc etc etc but as he seams to know it all good luck to him...

John has never stated that he <knew it all>, but then no-one <knows it all>  ;)
However if I was looking for information about Retrievers, be they Labs, Goldens or Flatcoats, then John would be the person I would ask. :)

Everyone has different opinions and view points, also remember the danger of the written word, no-one is slating you, you put your opinion across, and others will add there's :)

Stephanie.
You asked, I said! You are at liberty to do exactly what you want to do.

John

I never once called you stupid! :rolleyes: I still don't understand why the subject of breeding licences was brought up as they are completely irrelevant to the matter raised by the Original Poster!

Hi,

If I was in need of information or advice like this guest was wanting the best place to go would be The Golden Retriever Club .

Briony:-)

Do you think, saying exactly the same as the guest said in the post on here, that the person would have received any different advice Briony? We can only read what a person writes.

I also wonder why, every time I speak the truth about Goldens I get slated? Exactly what do people disagree about? Obviously not the health issues I raised on here, every one is well documented. No breed is without problems of one sort or another but sticking heads in sand will not help. With latest research into genetics, we have a far better chance of gradually breeding out at least some of these problems. Let's face it, the Irish Setter people worked wonders years ago to almost eradicate Night Blindness from the breed and that was without the benefit of latest medical science! If the will is there then miracles CAN be performed.

John

stephanie i agree there are some very rude people on here who think they know everything there is to know about dogs :-( the best thing to do is ignore them, only use your valuable time replying to genuine open-minded people (there are a few on here thank goodness!!) :-)

Hi all

Read this thread with interest having owned and BRED goldens for a number of years. Non, dog or bitch should be bred from unless all current health checks are carried out and the dog/bitch is a good example of the breed. Then, consideration should be given to the correct rearing, homing and follow up advice for the puppies. Anyone new to the breeding game should give careful consideration that they can fulfil these requirements, plus give even further consideration to whether they will be able to find SUITABLE homes for all the puppies.

I know this started as to whether a dog should be used at stud, but it has gone on to breeding in general.

If you are giving consideration to using a dog at stud then all above points should be carried out plus could you be sure that there will be a steady demand for his use.

There are plenty of good quality dogs out there and it is not necessary to use one that is primarily a pet, just because he is 'nice'.

I found it fascinating that this thread got overheated by the comments of someone that proudly claims he does not breed. So I guess he knows it all then.

And as I can guess the answer, no I don't consider I know it all either.

Hi no as John has stated he doesn't breed but has he given any information which is wrong in this respect?Do you have to breed to have done the research? You seem to be knocking him for not breeding.He has been involved in dogs for more years than I can remember and although he doesn't own either of my breeds if he expressed his opinion on either one of them I would read it eagerly as i'm sure it would have a good grounding in sense and experience.JMHO Gillian

<<I found it fascinating that this thread got overheated by the comments of someone that proudly claims he does not breed. So I guess he knows it all then.>>

50 years ago I knew it all Goldpoint. It is as I have got older that I realise I know very little. And no, I do not "Proudly Claim" it is with regret that I have to state. Holding a full time job I am not in a position to do the job properly and I will not do a half hearted job. I did my homework and picked a stud dog for my bitch, one of the best dogs I could find, tested for all hereditory problems, as is my bitch. The pedigrees dovetail in beautifully and I have requests for puppies including two gamekeeper who have seen her abilities. The only thing I was lacking is the time. I have held on hoping I would be abe to breed the litter but as the bitch in question will be 6 years old next month I have reluctantly been forced to admit that it will never happen.

Obviously you know more about this thread than me so, what did I say which was wrong? Would you like to tell me?

John

((((I found it fascinating that this thread got overheated by the comments of someone that proudly claims he does not breed. So I guess he knows it all then.

And as I can guess the answer, no I don't consider I know it all either)))

No one knows it all  we learn all the time.
I get very worried when I see people saying I have a nice dog Id like to breed from,because yes we do have a lovely dog we love our dogs very much but wether he/she is a credit to the breed is another story,the health schemes are not fool proof but they are at least a start,I also am in rescue  a massive problem and I know that many of the rescues are not produced by responsible breeders but a small amount can be. I feel that people like John and myself and others on here who are passionate about their breeds have a valid point, when john says he doesnt breed then that should be clarified as he could breed he could work fulltime as some do and keep their dogs for breeding maybe locked up in a shed and produce them at shows etc at weekend I know Johns labrador is a gorgeous girl  and a very clever working labrador who if she had pups would be booked well in advance and by very well known working lab people so the fact he doesnt breed is a credit to him,its too easy to say yes ill have a litter from this bitch or use that dog but lets face it its a massive commitment to people like myself and john and other caring dog people .
I once owned a rather nice choc lab dog I used to have people knocking on my door wanting to use him but I said no because the reasons for breeding were not right. I could have made a lot of money. I  at one had a very nice yellow puppy I could have paid a mortgage off with the silly money offered to go to america  I said no  as it happens he is a show champion here no mean feat in my breed.
Lets have a bit more care in our breeding strive to produce quality or dont bother else why else should we breed. lets not jump the gun and think yes lets have a litter.
Because no matter what we think the rescue problem in this country i s horrendous can we be sure all our pups will have a forever home with the family that take him/her.
Back to John. I am not going to beat around the bush John is my freind but I respect his knowledge,expertiise and love of dogs and sheer common sense above anyone Ive met in dogs and I find him to be fair and above all will give his help every time and does not deserve to be  other than respected he will always go the extra mile if it helps people to enjoy their dogs, people like this a few and far between.

I didn't say you had done or said anything wrong, but then all the replies are condemning breeders obviously assuming that we have not done our homework as well as you John which is wrong.

I know as much about this thread by not contributing beforehand, as you do about breeding but not breeding. I was merely amused about how heated the thread had become from a straightforward request.

All of you who replied proved my point.

Joy

This was my reply to the guest:_

<<Goldens have big problems with hereditory ailments. Please don't entertain breeding without eye testing and hip scoring. It is so important for the long term good of the breed.>>

Where have I condemned breeders?

Your snide remark was totally uncalled for and has not endeared you to me in any way.

Hi,

I thought I gave sound practical advice I felt I came into the firing line of attack,
But like I  said before we all have something to offer and collectively we have a lot of knowledge to share,as well as getting advice from here ,Breed clubs are always to happy to point in the right direction and back up any advice or do away with any myths.
In my opinion it makes a thread boring if all read is someone having a "dig "at someone else about   who gave the best advice.
So long as the advice is correct and it is just advice, there no need to bicker,life too short off to exercise the Goldies now,and head for the nearest bunker :-)

Briony :-) on this glorious sunny day:-)

Condemning breeders? Where? (Of course irresponsible breeders who don't do their homework will be frowned upon, but anyone with a modicum of sense would have no issue with that.) And heated? Again, where?
:)

hello jeangenie, I think if you need evidence of anyone condemning "breeders" you need only look as far as a post you made yesterday, in which you accused a breeder whom you had never met, of being a "puppy farmer", I have sent you a PM about this.:-)

Whilst I agree that it is always a good idea to join a breed club the advice given is only as good as the person approached, sometimes you will find they have less experience than you and you could tell them a thing or two. Breed clubs usually have a statement of ethics that apply to breeding and it would be as well to take note of that, the secretary would be able to give you the names of people in your area that may be able to offer help.

So it is always worth asking on here and other such forums and hope you are able to sort the wheat from the chaff, in the replies you get. Some people have years of experience, others are finding their way and some have a nine month pup and are, of course, experts ;) in nine month old puppies.